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 Post subject: Bad News for Diesel
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:49 am 
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https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/10/busi ... v=top-news


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 Post subject: Re: Bad News for Diesel
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:30 pm 
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There will always be a place for diesel engines for transportation. Just maybe not in passenger cars and SUVs.
Currently, the only way for goods to leave the east/west coast ports and get to warehouses and store shelves is by diesel engine.

None the less, Ford still plans to sell the F150 with a 3.0L diesel.

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 Post subject: Re: Bad News for Diesel
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:59 pm 
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Its hard to justify the diesels in small cars/trucks now and maybe VW knew this but had such a choke hold on the small diesel market that they kept pushing it. Now they are getting their asses handed to them and need to move in a new direction, and in order to level the playing field, they have to take diesel down.

You have to slap all the emissions stuff on them to make them compliant and it increases the cost and reduces fuel mileage. With diesel prices being basically $0.40 higher than 87 octane gasoline on average(http://gasprices.aaa.com/), you have basically eaten up all of your mileage savings right there, and you had to pay $4-5000 more up front. Unless you are driving an absolutely ridiculous amount of miles, its almost impossible to justify for the average user.

And dont say, "YEAH, BUT THE TORQUE!" The new GTDI motors are making more torque per liter and at the same or lower RPM's than the diesels are these days. Its not an argument anymore.

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 Post subject: Re: Bad News for Diesel
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:10 pm 
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flash7210 wrote:
There will always be a place for diesel engines for transportation. Just maybe not in passenger cars and SUVs.
Currently, the only way for goods to leave the east/west coast ports and get to warehouses and store shelves is by diesel engine.

None the less, Ford still plans to sell the F150 with a 3.0L diesel.


I am predicting right now, that the Ford diesel in the F150 is going to be so expensive that our heads will collectively explode. Ford gets more money for their trucks than Ram does in real life in general, you can often get a Ram Ecodiesel($5000) for the same price as a Ford with the 2.7L($800-950) in some cases. If ford's prices continue i bet you wont be able to touch one for much less than 40k.

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 Post subject: Re: Bad News for Diesel
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:58 pm 
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And yet it seems that FCA will still release the Wrangler in Q3 with the 3.0 diesel option? Surely the Wrangler is going to become an obsolete vehicle eventually with all the strangle-hold environmental economics, and the diesel is just a band-aid until then, but the current outlook hasn't been to discontinue that line!

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 Post subject: Re: Bad News for Diesel
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:35 pm 
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APC9199 wrote:
And yet it seems that FCA will still release the Wrangler in Q3 with the 3.0 diesel option? Surely the Wrangler is going to become an obsolete vehicle eventually with all the strangle-hold environmental economics, and the diesel is just a band-aid until then, but the current outlook hasn't been to discontinue that line!


The wrangler is a freak of nature. Anyone who needs a good vehicle to drive to and from work should never buy a wrangler and yet they do. I see a billion of them with massive MTRs and 500" wide LED light bars around here all the time, and not a spec of dust on them. My neighbors wife has a Wrangler Unlimited sport with a lift and 37" Duratracs as her daily driver. FCA knows the wrangler is a cash cow. Look at the MSRP's and what they get for the vehicle with relatively low tech and low optioned interiors.

Now throw a diesel in it, and it will be like Tickle Me Elmo on black friday. Salemen across the country will be trampled to death by the hordes with their blank checks trying to get their hands on it first.

Plus, FCA doesnt have a good gas motor that competes with the 3.0 diesel. The option is a 3.6 pentastar, which is a dog, or the 2.0L turbo which aint bad but its only rated at 268hp/298tq. The 3.0 diesel is rated at 260hp and 442 tq and will walk all over it from a performance standpoint.

As a side note on the Ecodiesel: I have not seen the Ecodiesel available on either the 2018 Ram 1500 or Grand Cherokee Build and Price pages. I dont know if they dropped it for 2018 or if its just late availability.

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 Post subject: Re: Bad News for Diesel
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:14 pm 
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What you say may be true for the US market, but it's a market that's enormously manipulated from fuel tax, road tax, sales tax, EPA requirements, need I go on?
The rest of the world market has few to none of the restrictions, and a vehicle product selection many times what the US has. AND YET diesels still have a HUGE following, and the price premium is due to demand, not the artificial economic manipulation that the US market is left with.

You are right that it has nothing to do with torque, though. What it does have to do with is available fuels, and vehicle longevity.
Most nations of the world do not have to deal with low sulfur low zinc diesel/oils. What they DO have is complete crap petrol.
Don't believe me? Go live in Mexico for a year and run your beloved GTDI on the best gas available there the whole time. Trust me, that it will not be recognizable, even after just one year. TOAST!

Here it may make sense. MOST of the rest of the world.. not a chance.
Diesel, on the other hand, is far superior compared to ours, for vehicle longevity, and that's what makes it something they will ALWAYS choose, over gasoline, if they can possibly afford it.

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 Post subject: Re: Bad News for Diesel
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:26 pm 
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mass-hole wrote:
flash7210 wrote:
There will always be a place for diesel engines for transportation. Just maybe not in passenger cars and SUVs.
Currently, the only way for goods to leave the east/west coast ports and get to warehouses and store shelves is by diesel engine.

None the less, Ford still plans to sell the F150 with a 3.0L diesel.


I am predicting right now, that the Ford diesel in the F150 is going to be so expensive that our heads will collectively explode. Ford gets more money for their trucks than Ram does in real life in general, you can often get a Ram Ecodiesel($5000) for the same price as a Ford with the 2.7L($800-950) in some cases. If ford's prices continue i bet you wont be able to touch one for much less than 40k.

Ford is on pace this year to sell 900,000 F series pickups,that's alot of $$$ with a "average" price of $40k per.

You can get a F250/F350 with the 6.7 for cheaper then a F150 with any sort of options.


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 Post subject: Re: Bad News for Diesel
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:46 pm 
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GordnadoCRD wrote:
What you say may be true for the US market, but it's a market that's enormously manipulated from fuel tax, road tax, sales tax, EPA requirements, need I go on?
The rest of the world market has few to none of the restrictions, and a vehicle product selection many times what the US has. AND YET diesels still have a HUGE following, and the price premium is due to demand, not the artificial economic manipulation that the US market is left with.

You are right that it has nothing to do with torque, though. What it does have to do with is available fuels, and vehicle longevity.
Most nations of the world do not have to deal with low sulfur low zinc diesel/oils. What they DO have is complete crap petrol.
Don't believe me? Go live in Mexico for a year and run your beloved GTDI on the best gas available there the whole time. Trust me, that it will not be recognizable, even after just one year. TOAST!

Here it may make sense. MOST of the rest of the world.. not a chance.
Diesel, on the other hand, is far superior compared to ours, for vehicle longevity, and that's what makes it something they will ALWAYS choose, over gasoline, if they can possibly afford it.


And those 3rd world countries probably don’t care about emissions, Look at the smog in Mexico City. Eventually they will and it will result in the same issues we see here and Europe.


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Last edited by mass-hole on Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Bad News for Diesel
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:36 pm 
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Like I've been saying all along. Build an electric 4wd SUV or 1/2 ton truck that goes 250 miles on a charge and can tow my boat for under $50,000 and I'd be one of the guys trampling over salesmen to give them a check first. Until then the world is stuck in this stupid fossil fuel rut until we run out. Then it will be chaos, war, murder, etc for a gallon of anything UNLESS you have an EV (and guns).

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 Post subject: Re: Bad News for Diesel
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:04 pm 
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What VW does regarding diesel passenger vehicles is a moot point. The UK, France, and China are essentially banning the sale of internal-combustion-powered passenger vehicles by 2040; expect other countries to follow suit.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -telegraph

The reality is that we're being pushed into a future of entirely-electric vehicles whether we like it or not - or if aspects of the technology behind electric vehicles can make them range- and usability-competitive with petroleum-powered ones. The only real question is how long of a timeline that's going to take to happen based on where you live and drive.

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 Post subject: Re: Bad News for Diesel
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:13 am 
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As long as I can charge it with my diesel generator.


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 Post subject: Re: Bad News for Diesel
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:49 pm 
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DieselJeepLuvr wrote:
Like I've been saying all along. Build an electric 4wd SUV or 1/2 ton truck that goes 250 miles on a charge and can tow my boat for under $50,000 and I'd be one of the guys trampling over salesmen to give them a check first. Until then the world is stuck in this stupid fossil fuel rut until we run out. Then it will be chaos, war, murder, etc for a gallon of anything UNLESS you have an EV (and guns).


I am with you. My issue is I need more like 400-500 miles, since leaving the Salt Lake area basically requires at least a 4 hour drive to get anywhere.

casm wrote:
What VW does regarding diesel passenger vehicles is a moot point. The UK, France, and China are essentially banning the sale of internal-combustion-powered passenger vehicles by 2040; expect other countries to follow suit.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -telegraph

The reality is that we're being pushed into a future of entirely-electric vehicles whether we like it or not - or if aspects of the technology behind electric vehicles can make them range- and usability-competitive with petroleum-powered ones. The only real question is how long of a timeline that's going to take to happen based on where you live and drive.


VW probably knows this though. They have lost the choke on the small diesel market and why reinvest in it if they think they are gunna need to develop new tech soon anyways. They've already made it clear they wanna focus on electric.

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 Post subject: Re: Bad News for Diesel
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:51 pm 
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https://www.motor1.com/news/243785/fca-diesel-phase-out-plan/

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 Post subject: Re: Bad News for Diesel
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:41 pm 
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GordnadoCRD wrote:

Well considering most major cities not in the US are banning all diesels in the next few years it's not at all surprising.

Hell Ford is eliminating all cars but 2 in the US and GM is most likely going to follow suit.

The market is just not there for diesels and cars here in the US.


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 Post subject: Re: Bad News for Diesel
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:08 pm 
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Yep

It kind of surprises me that none so far have pursued the full size "Ute" market segment that they do in Australia. Functional SUV with passenger suspension and a short bed in back.

Short bed crew cabs take a stab at it, but still have full truck suspension even though they never even see dirt.

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 Post subject: Re: Bad News for Diesel
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:33 pm 
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GordnadoCRD wrote:
Yep

It kind of surprises me that none so far have pursued the full size "Ute" market segment that they do in Australia. Functional SUV with passenger suspension and a short bed in back.

Short bed crew cabs take a stab at it, but still have full truck suspension even though they never even see dirt.

They have tried hear but every time they have failed.


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 Post subject: Re: Bad News for Diesel
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:57 pm 
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Location: Oregon Coast Dairy Country. Land of stumps, dumps, and "Liquid Pumps"
The El Camino and Ranchero both had decent runs, but ultimately died out.
The Avalanche... that has other issues, but it's kind of a ute. Not popular around here though.

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YETI Custom Tune
Flowmaster 8325508
Carter P76611M
GM 12611872
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2010 Ram Hemi Trans
Sonnax 44957
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