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WHITBREAD STUDS: Contact Matt if already bought.
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=87548		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  geordi [ Fri Dec 15, 2017 5:01 pm ]
Post subject:  WHITBREAD STUDS: Contact Matt if already bought.
WHITBREAD STUDS UPDATE
Edit: Contact Matt if you have already purchased, any future purchases will be an updated kit. The problem has been identified, detailed further on in this thread.

Original post below:

I realize this topic is going to seem somewhat controversial because I am probably well-known as being an advocate for buying at ID Parts. However, this has nothing to do with where you purchased them. The physical studs that are being sold by Whitbread do not fit on stud locations 11-14. This would be the far passenger side outside row.

If you look at the underside of the valve cover, you will see a "web" of aluminum between the oil passageway for the exhaust camshaft and the outside wall of the cover. There is an arch in this aluminum because of where the studs or bolts mount. Because the replacement studs are considerably taller, they prevent the cover from seating properly. Nearly a quarter inch needs to be shaved from the top of the stud which ends up removing any ability to thread it in with a hex driver.

I will be posting pictures of this discovery, if I cannot attach them to this posting.Image

This is the original stud and one of the longer studs side-by-side.Image

This is what they look like when they are installed
Image

An engineer can confirm this for me, however I have always had the understanding that once you exceed the number of threads equal to the diameter of any fasteners, any extra threads captured are providing no extra force. This is why extra threads above the nut have no gain in power, but also deeper into the block does not add any extra strength either. These longer studs bottom out in the hole, and must be backed off a small amount according to ARP. But they are still overall far too long for installation in that row in the head.


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Author:  mass-hole [ Fri Dec 15, 2017 5:05 pm ]
Post subject:  WHITBREAD STUDS DO NOT FIT
geordi wrote:
I realize this topic is going to seem somewhat controversial because I am probably well-known as being an advocate for buying at ID Parts. However, this has nothing to do with where you purchased them. The physical studs that are being sold by Whitbread do not fit on stud locations 11-14. This would be the far passenger side outside row.

If you look at the underside of the valve cover, you will see a "web" of aluminum between the oil passageway for the exhaust camshaft and the outside wall of the cover. There is an arch in this aluminum because of where the studs or bolts mount. Because the replacement studs are considerably taller, they prevent the cover from seating properly. Nearly a quarter inch needs to be shaved from the top of the stud which ends up removing any ability to thread it in with a hex driver.

I will be posting pictures of this discovery, if I cannot attach them to this posting.Image

This is the original stud and one of the longer studs side-by-side.Image

This is what they look like when they are installed
Image

An engineer can confirm this for me, however I have always had the understanding that once you exceed the number of threads equal to the diameter of any fasteners, any extra threads captured are providing no extra force. This is why extra threads above the nut have no gain in power, but also deeper into the block does not add any extra strength either. These longer studs bottom out in the hall, and must be backed off a small amount according to ARP. But they are still overall far too long for installation in that row in the head.


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I thought he whole point of these was that they threaded farther into the block, not that there is extra on top. It appears the threaded length on the block side is the same length, so what does this allow for, half a turn further than the VW ones everyone uses? I didn’t think the VW versions threaded much further than the “flush nut” position anyways before they stopped.

The extra length on the top of the nut seems to be about the total extra length of the stud suggesting they thread about the same amount.

Also, how many threads on the OE bolts are actually in the block? Those can’t bottom out in the hole anyways or you wouldn’t get proper torque.


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Author:  geordi [ Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:18 pm ]
Post subject:  WHITBREAD STUDS DO NOT FIT
I believe you may be right, because the block threads on both studs are the same length. Carving off some of the bottom of the longer stud did not change the height once they were installed very much. We still ended up having to carve off the top in order to get the valve cover to seat.

I suspect what is happening is the stud is reaching the end of its own threads and since there is the same diameter shaft above, it jams and you cannot turn it any deeper into the block. The shorter studs have a "shoulder" at the top of the white threads, which provides a guaranteed stop from turning any deeper. But the longer stud will stop exactly the same way because you're only turning it by hand.


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Author:  flash7210 [ Fri Dec 15, 2017 9:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WHITBREAD STUDS DO NOT FIT
I seriously doubt that Mr Whitbread has ever worked on a CRD.

He may have done his homework, but he’s studying the wrong subject.
Author:  GordnadoCRD [ Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: WHITBREAD STUDS DO NOT FIT
If you're having to lop off the top, how much hex is left to make final adjustment?
Author:  geordi [ Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: WHITBREAD STUDS DO NOT FIT
None. We had to use pliers, and even that barely worked. The problem is you also don't want them to bottom out because according to ARP, that can cause the stud to sit at an angle and the stress will be uneven. You have to back them out a half turn from the bottom, but then holding the top while turning the nut is very difficult without the hex.


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Author:  WWDiesel [ Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: WHITBREAD STUDS DO NOT FIT
A thought!
After cutting them off, you could always cut a small slot in the top to enable the use a common screwdriver to adjust stud while holding the nut with a wrench. :idea:
Done this plenty of times for various reasons!

A screwdriver Slot can be cut using a very thin carborundum cut off wheel on an high speed air cutoff tool or Dremel tool if you have one. If not, it could be done with a good quality hacksaw blade but would be much slower... :roll:
Author:  Squeeto [ Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WHITBREAD STUDS DO NOT FIT
Wrong length for this application. Maybe they didn't send you the correct studs.
Author:  geordi [ Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WHITBREAD STUDS DO NOT FIT
Anyone that has already purchased, contact Matt and he will send you replacements for those four studs. Any future purchases will have an updated kit.

There is a question as to whether there may be a casting difference between the valve covers that have threaded camshaft caps or the ones that have rubber press in camshaft caps. This is still being researched, however the overall issue has been identified and will be corrected for future purchases.


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Author:  Mountainman [ Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WHITBREAD STUDS DO NOT FIT
So 4 of the studs with have less thread contact? If so, might they age to have slightly less clamping force, and possibly lead to a warped head, or leak, especially if it's one area? I'm not sold on this being an upgrade
Author:  geordi [ Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: WHITBREAD STUDS DO NOT FIT
The 204-4706 kits (what we have been using from IDparts and elsewhere that is the VW kit) have enough thread engagement to support nearly 75% of the elastic range of the stud (per Larry, LMWatbullrun) and 19,000 PSI of compressive force. When threading them in, they drop quite a few more than 5 full revolutions before the nut contacts the head. My understanding is that once you have exceeded the number of threads that equals the cross-section of the fastener, you have no further strength to be gained. The longer studs do not bottom out either, the wide threads are the same length of the stud on both sizes - so they must be actually running out of threads on the stud itself and stopping there.

I do not think there will be a material difference in using the shorter studs in that outside row application, as the wide threads are still far past the cross-section depth into the block.
Author:  CGman [ Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: WHITBREAD STUDS DO NOT FIT
geordi wrote:
The 204-4704 kits (what we have been using from IDparts and elsewhere that is the VW kit)



Is that supposed to read 204-4706 or have our Vendors changed something?
Author:  geordi [ Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: WHITBREAD STUDS DO NOT FIT
CGman wrote:
geordi wrote:
The 204-4704 kits (what we have been using from IDparts and elsewhere that is the VW kit)


Is that supposed to read 204-4706 or have our Vendors changed something?


Nothing has changed in the kit, it was a typo. Fixed. Thanks for catching that.
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