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 Post subject: Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:38 pm 
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WWDiesel wrote:
flash7210 wrote:
Lastly, I've kinda worked up a plan that will allow for deleting the VH while keeping the engine fan bracket and pulley. I just gotta find the right idler pulley that will fit.

These are the PN's for consideration that might be of help (pulleys, bushing) I have on file for removing just the VH.
Just haven't gotten around to performing the actual removal yet; it is on my bucket list to do so! Maybe this spring?
Relay for the VH has been pulled for over 3 years now and it really needs to go!

Plans are to KEEP the mechanical GM 11 blade cooling fan and mount a new idler pulley either in place of the VH or a larger grooved one in place of the current top OEM idler pulley to give enough clearance to run a shorter belt and clear the tensioner pulley.
Just haven't worked out all of the finer details quite yet! :roll:

Gates - Idler Pulley Bushing Part # M17X12B

Image


I would think it would be easier to just remove the vh and swap a bigger grooved pulley in for the current one on that side and run a shorter belt.. But then again i dont have any of the part numbers or anything, that way just seems easier to me. I would be interested in whatever you come up with.

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 Post subject: Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:15 pm 
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I looked into the efan swap. I like the idea of it for control and ease of removal..But even with the fans being a steal, you still have to buy the wiring, relays, and temp controls so really isnt much to gain. I wish i would of seen the gm fan / gm clutch option before i would of went that route. I have an upgraded hayden clutch now but it is for the Chrysler. The plastic fan alone for thats like 80 bucks. You can almost get the fan and clutch for the gm one for that amount. Its all up in the air at the moment since i have the fan off for the winter.[/quote]

In thermorex's thread on e-fan you can find the controller we have both used very successfully. It's about $100 at summit, but is really nice with the hds thermostat as you can run a proper sender unit with the controller. I'm in all this temp control stuff about $1k! But I would have saved hundreds and used a Taurus fan if I hadn't bought an ffd prior to the sellers bad reviews years ago.

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Mech fan, VH & AC delete (4 pulleys removed), tensioner relocated
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 Post subject: Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:40 pm 
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This is why I mentioned multiple times... "two speed fan motor"

The CRD already has all the relays, fuses, controls, and wiring for a two speed fan.

If you dont like the CRD programming for the electric fan, there is a simple mod that will give you manual control over the fan without effecting any of the automatic controls.

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Bought my '05 CRD on June 2nd '07, used with 29,000 miles.
intake elbow and EGR delete. 7 volt Etecno glow plugs
Yeti stage 2 ECU tune. Straight pipe exhaust. DIY intercooler hoses
Provent and modified factory 180F thermostat
Replaced cylinder head (cracked) at 160,000 miles + ARP studs
2.5 inch lift, 255-75-17 tires.
Still love it.


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 Post subject: Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:40 pm 
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flash7210 wrote:
This is why I mentioned multiple times. . "two speed fan motor"

The CRD already has all the relays, fuses, controls, and wiring for a two speed fan.

If you dont like the CRD programming for the electric fan, there is a simple mod that will give you manual control over the fan without effecting any of the automatic controls.


Is the factory set-up rated for the higher amperage fans? The FFD runs at about 22amps at full speed, fused at 30 amps.

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05 CRD: H.D.S2 stat,OME lift, JBA UCA's, GDE tunes ,Truetrac front,FFD fan,ARP's, new head,rockers, cams,sasquatch battery tray & grid heater, Suncoast TC, welded EGR port & trans drain, muffler delete,1.5" wheel spacers & longer studs
Mech fan, VH & AC delete (4 pulleys removed), tensioner relocated
-CRD's being restored


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 Post subject: Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:49 pm 
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Mountainman wrote:
flash7210 wrote:
This is why I mentioned multiple times. . "two speed fan motor"

The CRD already has all the relays, fuses, controls, and wiring for a two speed fan.

If you dont like the CRD programming for the electric fan, there is a simple mod that will give you manual control over the fan without effecting any of the automatic controls.


Is the factory set-up rated for the higher amperage fans? The FFD runs at about 22amps at full speed, fused at 30 amps.

Last I checked the FFD was a single speed fan.
Im not able to go out and check the fuses in mine right now, but you could probably change the fuse to 30 amp.
Because its a single speed fan you would only be able to use the low fan relay and circuit.

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Bought my '05 CRD on June 2nd '07, used with 29,000 miles.
intake elbow and EGR delete. 7 volt Etecno glow plugs
Yeti stage 2 ECU tune. Straight pipe exhaust. DIY intercooler hoses
Provent and modified factory 180F thermostat
Replaced cylinder head (cracked) at 160,000 miles + ARP studs
2.5 inch lift, 255-75-17 tires.
Still love it.


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 Post subject: Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:05 am 
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Re VH-delete, I just finished researching and confirming which over-sized replacement pulley is required between the PS-ALT in order to "clear" the tensioner's pulley:
Autozone Duralast PN 131082 . (sizes@ "serp. alt. routing" thread)
It is a ribbed-pulley because the serp re-routes OVER it to bridge the PS-ALT (rather than the stock 'under' routing between VH-ALT).

In my current VH/AC-delete setup, so far so good.
200-mile daytrip tomorrow will be first real road-test.
(POST-TRIP: new fan-bearings happy, serp quiet, and with upper-half removed from (chopped) OEM-shroud, temp stayed correct & even @ 65-105mph cruising, combined with 1.5 hour border-idle. 105 was boredom-induced, downhill on a "known-stretch" of a (rare) good MX toll-road; imo NOT an advisable speed in a jeep liberty. 90-95, however...)

Given that my Vegas-summer setup will be solely VH-delete, I'll try to determine the correct belt-length/PN and report back fairly soon.

Would a genius kindly pipe-in regarding what electrical mods/removals/disconnects are advisable/required as various components are "deleted"? Plugs, fuses, relays?
Possibly with genius-esque explanation of necessity?

Thanks!


Last edited by Gypsy62 on Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:25 am 
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For the part above the search turns up this info which might help find other places.

Hayden
Manufacturer Part Number: 5976
Other Part Number: IP76, 131082, IP1050, 5030025, 709756, 45976
Material: Plastic
Style: Idler / Tensioner Pulley
Belt Width MM: 28.575
Groove: 6 Groove
Interchange Part Number: 89012, 231082, 49016, 835976, 18113, PI260, 5976
Belt Width IN: 1.125
O.D. MM: 95.250
O.D. IN: 3.750



Flash, I assume you mean Remove the fan in the front and use its wiring and relays to run the efan puller on the rad between the engine? Mine already went out and I replaced that with a slim 16 up front. Used the wiring for that and just spliced the low and high together so if comes on it is high since that fan was only two wires. It has worked fine for that. But it only pulls like 15 amps at most i think.

The tbird fan below says it only pulls 17ish amps on high. But that doesnt match up with the other amps or cfms i have seen others post about that fan. However it seems with some trimming of the shroud it would fit. Not sure if it would be as good as some of the others, or if any of the others are still as good as they once were since you will most likely be getting a remake and they all probably source similar parts and have similar specs.

https://www.amazon.com/Dorman-620-118-Radiator-Fan-Assembly/dp/B001SGHK1W

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 Post subject: Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:17 pm 
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Well I guess I'll find out about that fan... I ended up catching another like model on Amazon for under 50 shipped with prime. This is the one I bought hopefully it will be a steal since amazon has raised it to 80 again now.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00Q64R372/

I'd be interested to see or hear the differences between this efan and others like the ffd, stock v6 lib one, the taurus one that was pulled and or any others. Maybe even stock mech. The cfm numbers seems to vary greatly depending on where you read or who you ask. There doesn't seem to be a cheap c.f. meter though only ft/min and others which would have to be converted.

Flash on your vh and mech fan delete. You think the pulley below would work? It is a third of the price since its used on a lot of old chevys and only 3mm smaller around.
Gates 38024
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=347158&cc=1302512

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 Post subject: Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:36 pm 
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I already have that pulley.
For what I want to do, it won't work quite right.
I'm just gonna have to walk into Napa and search their inventory.

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Bought my '05 CRD on June 2nd '07, used with 29,000 miles.
intake elbow and EGR delete. 7 volt Etecno glow plugs
Yeti stage 2 ECU tune. Straight pipe exhaust. DIY intercooler hoses
Provent and modified factory 180F thermostat
Replaced cylinder head (cracked) at 160,000 miles + ARP studs
2.5 inch lift, 255-75-17 tires.
Still love it.


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 Post subject: Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:57 pm 
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Flash, this is a very helpful tool if you have part numbers to view different pulley specifications.
Don't know if you are familiar with it or not?

Go to web page:> http://navigates.gates.com/
then click on "Part Number/Interchange" down just above the pictures.
this will give you a lookup page where you can type in any part number and it will pull up all pulleys associated with that number.
It works (interchange) for Gates, AC Delco, Dayco, part numbers etc...
It will give you all specifications for that pulley.
May save you some time and looking?
:D

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 Post subject: Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:30 pm 
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flash7210 wrote:
I already have that pulley.
For what I want to do, it won't work quite right.
I'm just gonna have to walk into Napa and search their inventory.


Was the belt too loose with it vs the other or??

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 Post subject: Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:31 pm 
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This is my current VH delete setup.
You can see the big GM plastic pulley there.

Image

You can see that the big pulley would contact the fan pulley if it were still there.
Can’t go with a smaller idler pulley because then the belt would contact the tensioner.

If you want keep the fan pulley the VH delete pulley has to be moved.
The most logical position would be where the VH was and therefore requires the fabrication of some sort of pulley bracket.
The bracket isn’t the issue. Finding the right pulley is.

The problem I have with the big GM pulley is that the bolt hole size is too big for my liking. WWdiesel posted a part number for a bolt hole space that might work. Also a Gates 38034 looks like it might work too.

However, I would like to hold the items in my hand and measure them before deciding on a purchase. The local Napa store is pretty easy to work with.

_________________
Bought my '05 CRD on June 2nd '07, used with 29,000 miles.
intake elbow and EGR delete. 7 volt Etecno glow plugs
Yeti stage 2 ECU tune. Straight pipe exhaust. DIY intercooler hoses
Provent and modified factory 180F thermostat
Replaced cylinder head (cracked) at 160,000 miles + ARP studs
2.5 inch lift, 255-75-17 tires.
Still love it.


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 Post subject: Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:42 pm 
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Are you routing directly from ALT to HBalancer, or still using the IPB(idlerpulleyB) inline?

Also, your substitute upper-pulley appears way larger than the one that I settled-on. For VH/AC delete, my current alternative pulley&belt combination still clears the tensioner-pulley & MF-pulley, albeit not by much. And that's with the MF inline (w/stock hub, pulley and serp).

My ultimate objective is somewhat different than yours. I plan to (eventually) install a high-cfm electric pusher-fan setup. But I'm also planning for the increased cooling capacity provided by a MechFan 'booster' setup for summer-temp heavy-loading (with VH-delete in all scenarios).
Therefore I need to retain a "quick-swap" MF bracket, and prefer to have a second, alternative bracket rather than dealing with pressing on/off the MF hub/pulley as needed.
Further, the design I'm considering will actually protrude significantly less (possibly 2") than the bare-shaft of your pulley-less stock bracket.

I just posted a new thread regarding fabrication of a custom bracket to replace the stock MF bracket. As I discuss there, one possible design would provide for a smaller, lighter pulley in place of the bulky MF hub. In that setup, your large pulley might still clear the bracket's smaller substitute lower-pulley.

As ever, your opinion is highly valued.


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 Post subject: Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:10 pm 
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Is there a tensioner that works clockwise rather than CCW? That would open up the ability to use the fan pulley and a smaller idler. The power steering pulley wouldn't get as much purchase, but it doesn't really need it if the tensioner has decent pressure.

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 Post subject: Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:13 pm 
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Still using the small idler and AC compressor.

I’ve also swapped that plastic pulley out for a steel pulley. It’s only slightly smaller. Nothing else changed.

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Bought my '05 CRD on June 2nd '07, used with 29,000 miles.
intake elbow and EGR delete. 7 volt Etecno glow plugs
Yeti stage 2 ECU tune. Straight pipe exhaust. DIY intercooler hoses
Provent and modified factory 180F thermostat
Replaced cylinder head (cracked) at 160,000 miles + ARP studs
2.5 inch lift, 255-75-17 tires.
Still love it.


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 Post subject: Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:05 pm 
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flash7210 wrote:
If you want keep the fan pulley the VH delete pulley has to be moved.
The most logical position would be where the VH was and therefore requires the fabrication of some sort of pulley bracket.
The bracket isn’t the issue. Finding the right pulley is.
Out of curiosity, why don't you just leave the viscous heater there? If you disconnect the electrical connector for its clutch (or pull the relay), it can't run and just acts like an idler pulley. Only potential issue I can think of is the bearing going out, but a new one of those could be bought for probably around the same price as an idler pulley.


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 Post subject: Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:24 pm 
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joe_ wrote:
flash7210 wrote:
If you want keep the fan pulley the VH delete pulley has to be moved.
The most logical position would be where the VH was and therefore requires the fabrication of some sort of pulley bracket.
The bracket isn’t the issue. Finding the right pulley is.
Out of curiosity, why don't you just leave the viscous heater there? If you disconnect the electrical connector for its clutch (or pull the relay), it can't run and just acts like an idler pulley. Only potential issue I can think of is the bearing going out, but a new one of those could be bought for probably around the same price as an idler pulley.

I did that for 8 years.
Figured it was time to just let it go.

_________________
Bought my '05 CRD on June 2nd '07, used with 29,000 miles.
intake elbow and EGR delete. 7 volt Etecno glow plugs
Yeti stage 2 ECU tune. Straight pipe exhaust. DIY intercooler hoses
Provent and modified factory 180F thermostat
Replaced cylinder head (cracked) at 160,000 miles + ARP studs
2.5 inch lift, 255-75-17 tires.
Still love it.


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 Post subject: Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:03 am 
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joe_ wrote:
flash7210 wrote:
If you want keep the fan pulley the VH delete pulley has to be moved.
The most logical position would be where the VH was and therefore requires the fabrication of some sort of pulley bracket.
The bracket isn’t the issue. Finding the right pulley is.
Out of curiosity, why don't you just leave the viscous heater there? If you disconnect the electrical connector for its clutch (or pull the relay), it can't run and just acts like an idler pulley. Only potential issue I can think of is the bearing going out, but a new one of those could be bought for probably around the same price as an idler pulley.


I did it for reliably, ease of working on the jeep, ease of seeing problems, rotational mass, and less hose connections to leak. If you look at my avitar you can imagine how quickly I can change/inspect the timing belt. I also completely removed 3 or 4 pulleys/bearings, so there's a lot less to fail.

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05 CRD: H.D.S2 stat,OME lift, JBA UCA's, GDE tunes ,Truetrac front,FFD fan,ARP's, new head,rockers, cams,sasquatch battery tray & grid heater, Suncoast TC, welded EGR port & trans drain, muffler delete,1.5" wheel spacers & longer studs
Mech fan, VH & AC delete (4 pulleys removed), tensioner relocated
-CRD's being restored


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 Post subject: Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:00 pm 
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Gypsy62 wrote:
Re VH-delete, I just finished researching and confirming which over-sized replacement pulley is required between the PS-ALT in order to "clear" the tensioner's pulley:
Autozone Duralast PN 131082 . (sizes@ "serp. alt. routing" thread)
It is a ribbed-pulley because the serp re-routes OVER it to bridge the PS-ALT (rather than the stock 'under' routing between VH-ALT).

In my current VH/AC-delete setup, so far so good.
200-mile daytrip tomorrow will be first real road-test.
(POST-TRIP: new fan-bearings happy, serp quiet, and with upper-half removed from (chopped) OEM-shroud, temp stayed correct & even @ 65-105mph cruising, combined with 1.5 hour border-idle. 105 was boredom-induced, downhill on a "known-stretch" of a (rare) good MX toll-road; imo NOT an advisable speed in a jeep liberty. 90-95, however...)

Given that my Vegas-summer setup will be solely VH-delete, I'll try to determine the correct belt-length/PN and report back fairly soon.

Would a genius kindly pipe-in regarding what electrical mods/removals/disconnects are advisable/required as various components are "deleted"? Plugs, fuses, relays?
Possibly with genius-esque explanation of necessity?

Thanks!


So that pulley allows the belt to clear both the tensioner and the fan pulley? Is the belt wraped around the fan pulley too? What is the part for the belt? Nevermind I just read you have the a.c. deleted currently. Pic of the setup? Belt clearance of new pulley and fan pulley anyway?

I have a aftermarket pusher / puller fan up front since my stock one let the magic smoke out. Its the one below. There is maybe an inch of play left so you could possibly go an inch bigger than the specs say my fan is deep, but it would be really tight.
https://www.amazon.com/Mishimoto-MMFAN-16-12V-Electric-Fan/dp/B0034G2IFC

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:54 pm 
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Here's my VH/AC delete-setup pic-link:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ru4kaeeogfqoa ... 7.jpg?dl=0

Red circles show serp-clearances, HOWEVER, I ultimately settled on a longer serp-belt in order to "relax" the tensioner. That reduced the pictured tensioner-clearance down to about 1/2". I don't see that as a problem, and feel it's a worthy trade-off in exchange for ample tensioner-travel.

I listed all the PN's in my setup in the "serpentine belt lengths" thread.


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