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 Post subject: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinions?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:02 pm 
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UPDATE- I just bought a used '92 taurus PULLER fan. LOTS of air! This used unit seems kinda' noisy, but I don't know 'normal' for reference.

CONCLUSIONS RE SERP-BELT TENSION/DEFLECTION:
UPDATE 2: At 1/2" tensioner-load, the PS pump (power steering) was slipping at low rpm/load causing heavy steering. Installing a 1/2"-shorter serp increased the tensioner-load to 1" (from fully-relaxed) and issue solved. Also gained the added benefit of additional space between the tensioner-pulley and belt-run from PS-IPA. This also suggests that the PS will slip before slippage at the ALT or MF.
"Tensioner Load" is more important than how much "flex-deflection" you feel in the mounted belt. Once the belt is on, when you "relax" the tensioner it can settle to a position 1" tighter than "unloaded".
When sizing alternative-setup serp-lengths, "heavy steering" is your coal-mine canary. As long as you have "normal" power-steering when your jeep is WARM, AND AT IDLE the serp isn't too loose.
You want to strike a balance, maintaining adequate "play" at the tensioner so that it has sufficient 'throw' when the serp is suddenly placed under load. 1" of tensioner 'load' seems fairly ideal.
Other opinions welcome.

REMINDER: SERP IDLER PULLEYS (X2) ARE REVERSE-THREADED; HOWEVER, SERP TENSIONER BOLTS ARE NORMAL.

Meanwhile, back under the hood...
My mechanical fan bearing just gave-out. Looked like the original, so let's just say they last 148k.
A complete new bracket/bearing assembly is ballpark $150 online (although ID wants $240). However, I'm attempting to source a replacement bearing here in Ensenada.

This failure has me considering alternative cooling options. Reviewing posts, it seems like the ideal setup might be:
- For <80f ambient-temp, non-towing driving, save 2mpg + add hp by removing the mechanical fan and installing an electric. Merely holding the mechanical fan assembly in-hand makes you want that beast gone; it is HEAVY!
- If so, it seems like the best setup would be:
A. Split annoying fan-shroud into upper&lower halves, per LJ posts, allowing easy-access for serp shenanigans, etc.
B. Re electric-fan installation, use a front-mounted "PUSHER" fan (between grill & radiator), instead of a rear-mounted "puller" fan (between radiator and engine).
Here's why: although puller-fans cool more effectively than pushers, as long as ALL the cooling-system components MINUS the fan are functioning properly, CRD's reportedly do not require tons of cooling under non-extreme loads and climates.
BUT, when summer hits and/or you are going to tow, unlike a puller, installing a PUSHER fan permits you to:
1. Remove the upper shroud.
2. Remove your shorter, re-routed serp belt.
3. Re-install your 11-blade-w/Hayden-clutch mechanical fan (only one mounting bolt!).
4. Re-install your stock serp. and upper shroud.
PRESTO! 30 minutes labor and you are now good for 120f. uphill desert towing with the A/C on "high". PLUS you have the additional cooling of the (manually switchable) auxiliary PUSHER fan!
Given that this setup is intended for non-summer heat, the alternative serp routing could also eliminate the AC pump.

Opinions?

Insights and recommendations for the best serp layout after eliminating the Mech fan & AC pump?

THANKS!

Keywords: serpentine belt, serpentine-belt, serp., serp , accessory belt, accessory-belt, alternator belt, fan belt, AC belt, A/C belt, aircon belt, air-conditioning belt, air conditioning belt, P/S Belt, power-steering belt, power steering belt, air-pump belt, air pump, timing-belt diagnosis, tbelt failure, troubleshooting timing, timing belt installation, timing-belt cover modification, (add additional keywords at end of your response[s], as desired)


Last edited by Gypsy62 on Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:04 pm, edited 18 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:45 pm 
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I have deleted both the engine driven fan and the viscous heater.

To remove the engine driven fan, remove the fan and clutch assembly and remove the fan shroud. Set them aside and forget about them.

To delete the viscous heater...
1. remove the belt
2. remove the belt idler pulley that bolted to the fan bracket and save it for later
3. remove the fan bracket and use a puller to pull the fan pulley off of it
4. remove the viscous heater and re route the heater hoses from the thermostat housing to the heater pipe
5. purchase a Gates 36167 pulley and a AC Delco 6k815 belt
6. re install fan bracket (without fan pulley)
7. using the bolt and spacer from the old idler pulley, bolt the new Gates pulley to the fan bracket
8. install the new AC Delco belt
Belt routing is: crank pulley - tensioner - power steering - new gates idler pulley - alternator - small idler - AC

You should already have a pusher fan in your grille. I wired in a toggle switch to allow me to turn it on manually when needed or just allow the ECM to turn it on.

With some modification, you can also use a electric puller fan for a 2004 liberty 3.7L. Get the two speed version if you do.

_________________
Bought my '05 CRD on June 2nd '07, used with 29,000 miles.
intake elbow and EGR delete. 7 volt Etecno glow plugs
Yeti stage 2 ECU tune. Straight pipe exhaust. DIY intercooler hoses
Provent and modified factory 180F thermostat
Replaced cylinder head (cracked) at 160,000 miles + ARP studs
2.5 inch lift, 255-75-17 tires.
Still love it.


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 Post subject: Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:50 am 
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Thanks for the info, Flash.
I understand that (some?) CRD's had OEM pusher-fans, but my '05 does not; maybe it was removed by a previous owner.
Re your advised serp re-route, the only difference is that I'd also like to skip the AC pump for the "winter" setup (I forgot about the viscous heater). For the "summer" setup with the mech fan and AC back in-line, to me it sorta' makes sense to go back to the stock routing. If you're going to seasonally exchange the mpg&hp gains for robust summer cooling, than why not use the stock serp belt, too.
Again, my objective is to facilitate a fairly simple winter/summer fan-swap setup. That disqualifies installing the gasser's (or any other) puller-fan, because the mech-fan needs that space.
My research seemed to suggest that a well-functioning mechanical fan is still necessary for cooling properly during towing/>90f.temps/AC. Does anybody have evidence to the contrary, that an electric fan can handle extreme conditions?

Today I was able to source new serp idler pulleys. Unlike the flat-surface oem's, these idler pulleys have "flanged" edges. There may be a downside, but I see an upside: unlike the flat-edged oem's which require the accesory-pulleys' flanges to guide the serp belt, these flanged idler-pulleys can be directly-substituted for deleted-accessories while still providing a belt "guide".

Sure, I'd love to leave the @%#$ shroud completely off. However, while that seems fine with the mech fan removed, when it's mounted I kinda' prefer that basic protection (from my own stupidity) and the upper/lower split-shroud approach seems like a suitable compromise.
Thanks


Last edited by Gypsy62 on Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:18 am, edited 5 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:01 am 
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IMO, the best overall (for all conditions) cooling fan setup uses the factory belt routing, factory front electric pusher fan, and the WWdiesel suggested GM fan clutch with plastic fan.
And do some sort of fan shroud mod to facilitate easy removal/installation of the fan.
Dont bother with trying to delete or do a short belt away from the viscous heater or AC compressor. As long as those bearings are good their pulleys dont offer much drag. If you want to seasonally disable those accessories, simply remove their respective relays.

I removed my engine driven fan and shroud about 6 years ago. And I deleted the viscous heater about a year ago.
Neither mod provided any noticeable increase in efficiency.
But all the open space between the radiator and engine makes it easy to get to the serp belt tensioner and the radiator drain plug. And the viscous heater was completely useless for me.

I have towed with me engine driven fan removed, using only the electric pusher fan.
This was back in June when I used my CRD to tow another CRD on a dolly from Baltimore back to Jax.
The drive on I-95 was mostly flat but the hot summer sun was beating down for the whole trip.
My CRD ran hot but it was manageable (and uncomfortable).
First off, I had to keep the AC off.
I also discovered that it ran about 10 degrees cooler at 60mph vs. 65mph. (200 vs 210)
And a few times I had to turn the cabin heat on full blast to keep coolant temp under control. (I already had the windows down so I just pointed the vents out the window)

_________________
Bought my '05 CRD on June 2nd '07, used with 29,000 miles.
intake elbow and EGR delete. 7 volt Etecno glow plugs
Yeti stage 2 ECU tune. Straight pipe exhaust. DIY intercooler hoses
Provent and modified factory 180F thermostat
Replaced cylinder head (cracked) at 160,000 miles + ARP studs
2.5 inch lift, 255-75-17 tires.
Still love it.


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 Post subject: Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:26 pm 
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flash7210 wrote:
And a few times I had to turn the cabin heat on full blast to keep coolant temp under control. (I already had the windows down so I just pointed the vents out the window)

Auxiliary Standby Backup Cooling System! :ROTFL: :rockon:

_________________
05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited :JEEPIN:
Blk Brush Guard/Hella's/LED's
Ironman Springs/Bilstein's
Yeti Stg4 MaxTune
Weeks ElbowKit/BatteryTray
NO FCV/EGR
Samcos/ProVent
SunCoast/Transgo
Carter Intank-pump
2mic.Sec.Fuel Filter
Flowmaster/NOcat
V6 Airbox
GM11 blade fan/NAPA HDclutch
Ironrock Trilink
98 Dodge Cummins, 5"exh. Viair, Huge K&N


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 Post subject: Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:42 pm 
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Haha. Been and done that, b4 hayden&11-blade.
I know there's tons of threads re wiring elec. fan... finding them, however : (


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 Post subject: Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:39 pm 
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Gypsy62 wrote:
Thanks for the info, Flash.
I understand that (some?) CRD's had OEM pusher-fans, but my '05 does not; maybe it was removed by a previous owner.
Re your advised serp re-route, the only difference is that I'd also like to skip the AC pump for the "winter" setup (I forgot about the viscous heater). For the "summer" setup with the mech fan and AC back in-line, to me it sorta' makes sense to go back to the stock routing. If you're going to seasonally exchange the mpg&hp gains for robust summer cooling, than why not use the stock serp belt, too.
Again, my objective is to facilitate a fairly simple winter/summer fan-swap setup. That disqualifies installing the gasser's (or any other) puller-fan, because the mech-fan needs that space.
My research seemed to suggest that a well-functioning mechanical fan is still necessary for cooling properly during towing/>90f. temps/AC. Does anybody have evidence to the contrary, that an electric fan can handle extreme conditions?

I STILL SORELY NEED THE SERP-TENSIONER DEFLECTION SPEC: How much should the tensioner flex during belt installation? Imperative info for properly sizing the length of the custom replacement belt. Absent declarations, when I restore the stock setup in the next few days I'll record and report that measurement.

Related, today I was able to source both a workable replacement bearing for the mech-fan bracket, as well as new serp idler pulleys. Unlike the flat-surface oem's, these pulleys have "guide ridges". There may be a downside, but I see an upside: unlike the flat oem's which require 'lipped' accesory-pulleys on either side to guide the serp belt, these guiding-pulleys can be substituted for accessories. I'll post pics of everything as the system evolves.
(Oh: 2 new bearings & 3 new idler pulleys? $42. Viva México!)

Sure, I'd love to leave the @%#$ shroud completely off. However, while that seems fine with the mech fan removed, when it's mounted I kinda' prefer that basic protection (from my own stupidity) and the upper/lower split-shroud approach seems like a suitable compromise.
Thanks


I need a working Mech fan to keep cool just driving up some of the big climbs around here in the summer, never mind towing. My brand new Hayden clutch I bought to replace my OE one was DOA so I did the Fixed flex fan mod. That is the best setup as far as pure cooling and airflow I would imagine and provides enough flow at idle to not need the electric pusher. I never noticed a drop in mpg without a clutch. I do notice that the Jeep is less spunky with a Mech fan though, mostly off the line in town.

I’m running my derale electric puller fan right now(cause it’s winter) and have no pusher. The puller is wired into the factory pusher harness and is triggered by the ecu. That space is now filled by my aftermarket intercooler. The other day I climb my cousins driveway which is a switch-backed, snow covered, mess and it did start to get hot by the top. I was only doing about 10 mph clawing my way up in 4hi, so fairly high throttle and low speeds. It was only 35 degrees outside.

One thing to remember is that the mechanical fan pulley is overdriven by 50%. This means multiply the engine speed by 1.5 and you’ll know your fan speed. There is basically no situation I can think of where an electric fan has an advantage over the mechanical because these jeeps don’t really operate below 1500 rpm unless your idling. 1500 rpm means a fan speed of 2250 which is faster than most electric fans run and the Mech fan Is bigger and has more aggressive/deeper blades.

_________________
2006 CRD-400 ft-lb tune, Eco Trans Tune, Lift Pump, Week's, HDS Tstat, Racor Filter, ARP's, OME 790's+Top Plate, JBA 2.5", JBA UCA, Moab's+265/70R16, ARB Bar

2014 F150 EcoBoost - Gearhead Tuned, AFE CAC, Bilstein 5100's, Airlift Bags, Duratracs


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 Post subject: Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:37 am 
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Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2015 12:31 pm
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You received a bum new hayden? Noteworthy.
Actually, installing a hayden&11-blade only partially solved my previous summer-heating issue. After my HG&Tbelt adventure, the new H2O pump & Thermo made all correct under all conditions. I suspect the main culprit was the thermo.
Thanks also for reminding about rpm variation. So, Crank-pulley=1x, Fan-pulley=1.5x, visual suggests also 1.5x for ALL other accesory-pulleys, tensioner&idler, maybe 3-4x?

I'm going to research whether mopar sells the fan bracket's bearing separately. It's fairly manageable to press off/on (or pound) the fan's shaft from the pulley to ease R&R'ing the bearing. It has an odd, extended outer-race to honor a set-screw (allen wrench) designed to prevent bearing-shift. If luckless in mopar love, to replicate the set-screw function I'm thinking of just welding a couple of 'retention dots' along the outer-race of the unrequited roller-bearing.


(Relocated this rambling from header)
Secondarily, the serp-related threads I could find inspired a few observations:
- IF YOU REMOVE THE UPPER-THREE TIMING COVER MOUNTING SCREWS, YOU CAN GENTLY PRY THE COVER SLIGHTLY FORWARD AND PEEK INTO THE TIMING CHAMBER TO CONFIRM WHETHER YOUR BELT IS STILL INTACT. A quick, simple and useful way to help diagnose a stall.
Frankly, when I had mine apart I should have drilled a 1/4" hole in the tbelt cover above one of the cams; that would have permitted instant tbelt confirmation when diagnosing issues (using gorilla-tape patch over hole).
Come to think of it, leaning the tbelt cover forward would likely allow you to view just enough of the front of the cam sprockets to confirm the cam-to-cam timing condition, albeit requiring manual crank rotation and provided you made alignment marks between cam sprockets during tbelt installation.
MORAL: DURING DIY TBELT REPLACEMENT, PAINT BOLD ALIGNMENT MARKS WHERE CAM SPROCKETS MEET, & DRILL 1/4" TBELT OBSERVATION HOLE IN TBELT COVER ABOVE A CAM (drill hole BEFORE installing sprockets &tbelt, and catch metal-shavings while drilling! [duhx2]).

Reflecting on the likelihood of a jammed serpentine throwing-off timing, of this I'm 99% certain: once the engine has already stopped, there's no way the starter's force could force the tbelt to skip a tooth. Think about it: if the resistance is occuring at the jammed serpentine, what do the timing components care? They are minding their own bizness patiently waiting for the unrelated obstruction to allow them to sally-forth and carry-on. THEY are not the subjects of the crank-resistance, THEY shouldn't slip.
Underway, however, at the moment when the serpentine causes a jam... although the combustion process is still originating force at the crank, inertia is a beast.
First, a running CRD generates a LOT of power; so A#1, adiós jammed serpentine, tensioner, idler, fan... Whatever component of the serpentine belt system that is challenging a running CRD is going to lose.
Or is it? Bottom line, in that instant it is the strength of a jammed serpentine versus the strength of the rubber teeth on the timing belt. Rubber vs. Rubber. I default to the position that, unless the tbelt and/or its tensioner are old and/or worn, the tbelt would still provide adequate resistance to spin the crank within the jammed serpentine, but making one hell of a noise that would alert any but the deaf to pull the f over and turn-off the ignition. And even the deaf would smell/see the toasting serp-smoke.
Opinions? (Other than CEASE rambling posts...)

Finally, there are some very goofy notions floating-about on various serpentine-belt related threads, LJ & elsewhere:
- NO way can a serpentine belt enter the timing belt housing.
Who told (you) that, Scotty's apprentice? You can't "beam" through the separating metal cover!
- NO way can a timing belt "correct itself" if it has jumped a tooth. Sorry, but that is pretty funny. Look, the engine runs in only ONE direction; putting your vehicle in REVERSE occurs in the Trans, NOT the engine. THEREFORE, if a condition has occured which has caused a tbelt to skip a tooth/teeth (typically = hi-torque versus worn belt/tensioner/idler, etc) the force of the rotating engine can ONLY make it WORSE. ONE direction, okay?


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 Post subject: Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:08 pm 
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I can imagine that a serpentine belt snapping at high rpm would have significant velocity capable of damaging something. It hasn’t happened to me however.

Worn timing belt and tensioner can allow a belt to skip a tooth but it’s not gonna skip back.
Besides, how could you actually prove that’s what happened?
If you are really worried about such a thing, change the timing belt early and to it right. Don’t cut corners.

Now, STOP rambling... :-)r

_________________
Bought my '05 CRD on June 2nd '07, used with 29,000 miles.
intake elbow and EGR delete. 7 volt Etecno glow plugs
Yeti stage 2 ECU tune. Straight pipe exhaust. DIY intercooler hoses
Provent and modified factory 180F thermostat
Replaced cylinder head (cracked) at 160,000 miles + ARP studs
2.5 inch lift, 255-75-17 tires.
Still love it.


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 Post subject: Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:19 pm 
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Gypsy62 wrote:
You received a bum new hayden? Noteworthy.
Actually, installing a hayden&11-blade only partially solved my previous summer-heating issue. After my HG&Tbelt adventure, the new H2O pump & Thermo made all correct under all conditions. I suspect the main culprit was the thermo.
Thanks also for reminding about rpm variation. So, Crank-pulley=1x, Fan-pulley=1.5x, visual suggests also 1.5x for ALL other accesory-pulleys, tensioner&idler, maybe 3-4x?

I'm going to research whether mopar sells the fan bracket's bearing separately. It's fairly manageable to press off/on (or pound) the fan's shaft from the pulley to ease R&R'ing the bearing. It has an odd, extended outer-race to honor a set-screw (allen wrench) designed to prevent bearing-shift. If luckless in mopar love, to replicate the set-screw function I'm thinking of just welding a couple of 'retention dots' along the outer-race of the unrequited roller-bearing.


(Relocated this rambling from header)
Secondarily, the serp-related threads I could find inspired a few observations:
- IF YOU REMOVE THE UPPER-THREE TIMING COVER MOUNTING SCREWS, YOU CAN GENTLY PRY THE COVER SLIGHTLY FORWARD AND PEEK INTO THE TIMING CHAMBER TO CONFIRM WHETHER YOUR BELT IS STILL INTACT. A quick, simple and useful way to help diagnose a stall.
Frankly, when I had mine apart I should have drilled a 1/4" hole in the tbelt cover above one of the cams; that would have permitted instant tbelt confirmation when diagnosing issues (using gorilla-tape patch over hole).
Come to think of it, leaning the tbelt cover forward would likely allow you to view just enough of the front of the cam sprockets to confirm the cam-to-cam timing condition, albeit requiring manual crank rotation and provided you made alignment marks between cam sprockets during tbelt installation.
MORAL: DURING DIY TBELT REPLACEMENT, PAINT BOLD ALIGNMENT MARKS WHERE CAM SPROCKETS MEET, & DRILL 1/4" TBELT OBSERVATION HOLE IN TBELT COVER ABOVE A CAM (drill hole BEFORE installing sprockets &tbelt, and catch metal-shavings while drilling! [duhx2]).

Reflecting on the likelihood of a jammed serpentine throwing-off timing, of this I'm 99% certain: once the engine has already stopped, there's no way the starter's force could force the tbelt to skip a tooth. Think about it: if the resistance is occuring at the jammed serpentine, what do the timing components care? They are minding their own bizness patiently waiting for the unrelated obstruction to allow them to sally-forth and carry-on. THEY are not the subjects of the crank-resistance, THEY shouldn't slip.
Underway, however, at the moment when the serpentine causes a jam... although the combustion process is still originating force at the crank, inertia is a beast.
First, a running CRD generates a LOT of power; so A#1, adiós jammed serpentine, tensioner, idler, fan... Whatever component of the serpentine belt system that is challenging a running CRD is going to lose.
Or is it? Bottom line, in that instant it is the strength of a jammed serpentine versus the strength of the rubber teeth on the timing belt. Rubber vs. Rubber. I default to the position that, unless the tbelt and/or its tensioner are old and/or worn, the tbelt would still provide adequate resistance to spin the crank within the jammed serpentine, but making one hell of a noise that would alert any but the deaf to pull the f over and turn-off the ignition. And even the deaf would smell/see the toasting serp-smoke.
Opinions? (Other than CEASE rambling posts...)

Finally, there are some very goofy notions floating-about on various serpentine-belt related threads, LJ & elsewhere:
- NO way can a serpentine belt enter the timing belt housing.
Who told (you) that, Scotty's apprentice? You can't "beam" through the separating metal cover!
- NO way can a timing belt "correct itself" if it has jumped a tooth. Sorry, but that is pretty funny. Look, the engine runs in only ONE direction; putting your vehicle in REVERSE occurs in the Trans, NOT the engine. THEREFORE, if a condition has occured which has caused a tbelt to skip a tooth/teeth (typically = hi-torque versus worn belt/tensioner/idler, etc) the force of the rotating engine can ONLY make it WORSE. ONE direction, okay?


Yup. the hayden was DOA. I swapped it in and was still having overheat issues just as bad as before so I went and flushed the coolant, changed the tstat, got two exhaust gas leak checks, and finally did the waterpump and t-belt. None of it fixed it. On a whim I decided to take the fan off and test the clutch in the oven and it never locked up.

I have seen a number of people on here mention their Hayden clutches were dead or died rather quickly so that was why I went fixed flex fan. No clutch to worry about and a MUCH more aggressive fan design. It sounds like a prop plane taking off.

_________________
2006 CRD-400 ft-lb tune, Eco Trans Tune, Lift Pump, Week's, HDS Tstat, Racor Filter, ARP's, OME 790's+Top Plate, JBA 2.5", JBA UCA, Moab's+265/70R16, ARB Bar

2014 F150 EcoBoost - Gearhead Tuned, AFE CAC, Bilstein 5100's, Airlift Bags, Duratracs


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 Post subject: Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:53 am 
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Below is a many-splendored pic:

Image

Observe the inside of the removed pulley. Dating back about two years, and pre-dating my DIY major surgeries, I'd occasionally here a troubling intermittent "whacking" sound. Nothing was obstructing the belt, etc., driving me nuts.
SOLVED: the lower, long mounting bolt on the mech fan bracket was gradually vibrating loose, occasionally scraping the inside of the pulley. The pulley's four holes created a "whack-whack" noise instead of a constant scraping.
A 'chicken-egg' question remains whether the failing bearing caused the vibration that loosened the bolt, or if the loosening bolt began to stress the bearing as it exerted pressure on the inside of the pulley.

Other stuff:
- Big, wide, destroyed outer-race from the original bearing.
- A view of the allan-wrenched stock set-screw.
- My replacement-bearing field-fix.


Last edited by Gypsy62 on Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:00 pm 
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Gypsy62 wrote:
Below is a many-splendored pic:

Observe the inside of the removed pulley. Dating back about two years, and pre-dating my DIY major surgeries, I'd occasionally here a troubling intermittent "whacking" sound. Nothing was obstructing the belt, etc., driving me nuts.
SOLVED: the lower, long mounting bolt on the mech fan bracket was gradually vibrating loose, occasionally scraping the inside of the pulley. The pulley's four holes created a "whack-whack" noise instead of a constant scraping.
A question remains whether the failing bearing caused the vibration that loosened the bolt, or if the loosening bolt began to stress the bearing as it exerted pressure on the inside of the pulley.

Other stuff:
- Big, wide, destroyed outer-race from the original bearing.
- A view of the allan-wrenched stock set-screw.
- My replacement-bearing field-fix.

Did you happen to save the bearing number so we can file it for future reference?
If so, please share. :wink:
thanks,

_________________
05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited :JEEPIN:
Blk Brush Guard/Hella's/LED's
Ironman Springs/Bilstein's
Yeti Stg4 MaxTune
Weeks ElbowKit/BatteryTray
NO FCV/EGR
Samcos/ProVent
SunCoast/Transgo
Carter Intank-pump
2mic.Sec.Fuel Filter
Flowmaster/NOcat
V6 Airbox
GM11 blade fan/NAPA HDclutch
Ironrock Trilink
98 Dodge Cummins, 5"exh. Viair, Huge K&N


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 Post subject: Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:26 pm 
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Replacement bearings (x2), Autozone PN = 203SS (also 865823 & EB-GM22A).
The O.D. (outside diameter) of the OEM bearing is 40mm.
However, I couldn't locate a 40mmO.D. bearing with an I.D. that also matched stock. The stock spindle has a slight reduction in circumference from the pulley-end into the bracket-bearing (maybe 4mm). I bought 40x20 bearings and attempted to grind-down the spindle to fit the 20mm I.D. of the bearing using a dremel w/stone bit. Kinda' worked... however, while tapping the bearing onto the spindle (using a deep-socket) the fit was slightly tight and the metal inner-race of the bearing cracked (surprising). So, I then preceded to grind-off slightly too much causing the bearing's inner-race to intermittently free-spin. Arrgh.
Enter my friendly neighborhood machine-shop. They turned a perfect new spindle. They also pressed the spindle, 2 bearings, bracket and pulley all together. $25.
Their mig was down, so I went to a nearby welder to place a few bearing-retainer dots on the bracket, bearing and spindle:
Image

Notes: Obtain bearings with METAL, not plastic, seals. I learned the hard way that welders and plastic are not amigos. Spins beautifully, and now has a new bearing at each end of the spindle instead of the stock single-bearing setup. Pros & Cons to both.


Also noteworthy, when living abroad skilled-labor projects are a superb way to learn the local language and culture.


Last edited by Gypsy62 on Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:51 pm 
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Thanks for the info and numbers! The Autozone number worked fine, but (also 865823 & EB-GM22A) would not compute!

What was the OEM ID & OD & width dimensions of the bearing needed before grinding down the shaft?
I will see if SKF or National manufactures a bearing with the correct dimensions and post the PN for an exact fit if I can find one. :roll:

You are very brave soul welding a sealed roller bearing!!!! :shock:
But I understand, you do what you have to do sometimes.... :juggle:

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Blk Brush Guard/Hella's/LED's
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NO FCV/EGR
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Ironrock Trilink
98 Dodge Cummins, 5"exh. Viair, Huge K&N


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 Post subject: Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:55 pm 
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A tip that helps when you have to weld something when traveling heat is bad: Put some heat sink paste on the part you want to protect, and set some scrap of metal in/on it. It will help conduct the heat away from the part you want to protect. You can get it online, you can get it in parts shops, and you can get it in computer repair places. Pretty cheap also, compared with failed bearing seals.

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 Post subject: Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:46 pm 
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GordnadoCRD wrote:
A tip that helps when you have to weld something when traveling heat is bad: Put some heat sink paste on the part you want to protect, and set some scrap of metal in/on it. It will help conduct the heat away from the part you want to protect. You can get it online, you can get it in parts shops, and you can get it in computer repair places. Pretty cheap also, compared with failed bearing seals.

A nice very wet rag will work also; done it many times in the past! :D

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05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited :JEEPIN:
Blk Brush Guard/Hella's/LED's
Ironman Springs/Bilstein's
Yeti Stg4 MaxTune
Weeks ElbowKit/BatteryTray
NO FCV/EGR
Samcos/ProVent
SunCoast/Transgo
Carter Intank-pump
2mic.Sec.Fuel Filter
Flowmaster/NOcat
V6 Airbox
GM11 blade fan/NAPA HDclutch
Ironrock Trilink
98 Dodge Cummins, 5"exh. Viair, Huge K&N


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 Post subject: Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:33 pm 
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Nice work! So the moral of the story is that what we need to do is get the bearing, take it to machine shop with housing, get it bored slightly under, and then we can press in the correct replacement bearing every 150k or longer as the bearing is much more robust?
What was the total cost minus the welding?
I have seen those bearings quite loose at 150k, so I don't think your bolt interference made any difference. I just replaced one for a customer and it only had 105k miles, and the bearing was loose and running dry.

Edit: as for the ac delete, relocating the tensioner works well, and I recently replaced the tensioner on mine because I was getting some significant belt slip. Problem solved. The tensioner fits the hole in the timing cover that the mech fan hub long bolt goes in, so no relocate with mech fan. All you have to do is file the tensioner housing until it's a perfect circle, pretty evident when you try to install it as is. You also have to space the pulley out a few mils, but that's easy with the right size washer. I cut the massive mech fan hub down to hold just two bolts and used the factory idler there to span the massive distance that you see in my avitar.

For better wrap on the crank, it's probably better to leave the tensioner where it is, but I initially got turned off from the large idler pulley that ate belts. Flash found an almost identical pulley that doesn't eat belts, so I should reassess my set up for better belt life via better crank contact.

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05 CRD: H.D.S2 stat, Ironrock trilink,OME lift, JBA UCA's, Moabs&245/75 Duratracs, GDE tunes ,Truetrac front,FFD fan,ARP's, new head,rockers, cams,sasquatch battery tray & grid heater, Suncoast TC, welded EGR port & trans drain, muffler delete,
Mech fan, VH & AC delete,tensioner relocated
-CRD's being restored


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 Post subject: Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:10 am 
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Thanks for all the 'cool' tips!
However, I can't weld for crap; very thankful for the local pros!
I'll search my notes for the stock bearing's I.D., pre-grind (I should have been more patient with the dremel; that mod-method could've worked).

Ignoring the fact that my learning-curve wasted 5 bearings, the installed 2 were $3.50/each.

I'll list all the substitute components concisely after my setup is confirmed functional.
I'm still dealing with a bit of strangeness. Sounds great & normal temp, but with the VH & AC routed-out I was hoping for a noticeable increase in pep. Instead, it's dogging a bit, like the turbo isn't online.
This throttle-lag has me suspecting:
- The substitute serp is too tight (hopeful)
- I forgot a rag in one of the air-hose flanges (forgetful)
- The tbelt skipped when the fan bearing went (doubtful)


Last edited by Gypsy62 on Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:23 pm 
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Gypsy62 wrote:
Thanks for all the 'cool' tips!
However, I can't weld for crap; very thankful for the local pros!
I'll search my notes for the stock bearing's I.D., pre-grind (I should have been more patient with the dremel; that mod-method could've worked).

Ignoring the fact that my learning-curve wasted 5 bearings, the installed 2 were $3.50/each.

I'll list all the substitute components concisely after my setup is confirmed functional.
I'm still dealing with a bit of strangeness. Sounds great & normal temp, but with the VH & AC routed-out I was hoping for a noticeable increase in pep. Instead, it's dogging a bit, like the turbo isn't online.
This throttle-lag has me suspecting:
- The substitute serp is too tight (hopeful)
- I forgot a rag in one of the air-hose flanges (forgetful)
- The tbelt skipped when the fan bearing went (doubtful)


I don't think the tightness of the belt will affect anything more than belt and pulley life. Might a rag bend a valve? I've nearly left a rag, so i usually avoid covering with them, Scary!

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05 CRD: H.D.S2 stat, Ironrock trilink,OME lift, JBA UCA's, Moabs&245/75 Duratracs, GDE tunes ,Truetrac front,FFD fan,ARP's, new head,rockers, cams,sasquatch battery tray & grid heater, Suncoast TC, welded EGR port & trans drain, muffler delete,
Mech fan, VH & AC delete,tensioner relocated
-CRD's being restored


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 Post subject: Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:28 pm 
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FLASH: in #4 of your VH elimination guide above, is that heater-hose re-route fairly logical & easy to deduce visually, or is there some funky inaccessibilty/invisibility factor?
JUST SPENT 10MIN DOING QUICK VISUAL:
- I see the run from VH towards the heater-core feed, as well as the heater-core return line that snakes down to that chaotic coolant manifold-looking beastie located beneath everything (looks fairly accessible with airbox removed).
- Please explain in the simplest possible terms the VH-Thermo hose re-route. I have the Sasquatch routing; do I tap-in to that mod at all, or does your re-route only occur below?
- Where exactly does the VH's INPUT hose get re-routed?
- Where exactly does the VH's OUTPUT hose get re-routed?
- Do the hose re-routes require any add'l parts, or will the existing hoses reach and fit the re-route component(s) flanges?
MANY THANKS!!!

Also, I think I used a different setup for my VH/AC delete than you did (not 100% sure). I posted a link to a routing pic in the "serpentine alternative length" thread.

LAG SOLVED: Not too tight, no rag, no skip;
DTC 1854 !
'Lectro-kleen, then electro-salsa, then zip-tie w/gorilla tape = Shazam!
(Moral: when in doubt, whip-out the OBD!)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cw0mens57e0vp ... 6.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/f9ydlg42noaky ... 6.jpg?dl=0

and.. BACK TO ROCKET SHEEEEEEP !!!
Noticeable increase in spunkiness sans VH & AC !
YAAAAAAY !!!

I def have the "less load" bug. I'm gonna' have my local fab shop make a custom replacement mech-fan bracket that eliminates the Fan-bearing half, but replicates the pulley-mount half w/upper 3 bolt-holes. With mech. fan & its' annoying hub eliminated, Install my shiny (OLD) taurus electric-fan & ...............
SOOOOPER ROCKET SHEEEEEEP !!!

PS- IF ANYBODY ELSE WANTS A PULLEY BRACKET WITHOUT ANY MECH FAN GUTS LMK. I'LL POST MY LOCAL MEXICANO FAB-COST AFTER QUOTE IS RECEIVED.


Last edited by Gypsy62 on Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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