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Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinions?
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=87604		 Page 5 of 5
Author:  Gypsy62 [ Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
THAR SHE BLOWS!

Custom bracket in-hand:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/o3kyxmkyn8e0f ... 7.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tyj5j4x9mryu2 ... 9.jpg?dl=0

Unrelated: the 101.5" serp in my VH-delete setup shredded:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2vuil724p2kkf ... 5.jpg?dl=0

This has me wondering:
A. Is it possible that the flanged-pulleys are not advisable because the serp experiences (normal) lateral-play during engine-torque variation? Could the serp "stripping" (pic) be caused by the pulley-flange cutting into an over-lapping belt?
Minor lateral-play would not seem to pose a problem on the flange-less, smooth-surfaced OEM pulleys.
B. The setup calls for a tighter(shorter) belt?
Author:  GordnadoCRD [ Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
Looks good on the floor. How does it work on the Jeep?
Author:  Gypsy62 [ Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
Only 10 miles so far but sounds & looks great.
And it is a relief to know that now the rotational-force of the IPA cannot loosen it's mounting bolt!

HOWEVER, my elec. fan circuit won't kick-in.
Grrr, that's the whole point of this!
Fan tested off-vehicle: Check.
OEM Fan Fuse Installed/good: Check.
OEM Fan Relays are NEW: Check.

The temp gauged reached 3/4 and the #@&*% circuit still won't energize! I'll install a manual switch if necessary, but I'd REALLY prefer to use the CRD's cooling-system components to handle the fan-activation.
Suggestions?
Thanks!
Author:  GordnadoCRD [ Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
Properly grounded?

I like IPA. Enough of it loosens all sorts of things.
Author:  ryanchris [ Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
GordnadoCRD wrote:
Properly grounded?

I like IPA. Enough of it loosens all sorts of things.


This... If it is a one connection temp probe like i am going to install with my setup it has to be grounded back to the block/body with a grounding strap. I was thinking about that the other day since it will be in the coolant system routing surrounded by rubber I made a note to myself not to forget to make a ground strap back to something otherwise i probably forget and be angry about my low fan setting not working!... Nevermind. I think you are using the stock jeep front fan connections right?
Author:  Mountainman [ Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
Gypsy62 wrote:
THAR SHE BLOWS!

Custom bracket in-hand:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/o3kyxmkyn8e0f ... 7.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tyj5j4x9mryu2 ... 9.jpg?dl=0

Unrelated: the 101.5" serp in my VH-delete setup shredded:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2vuil724p2kkf ... 5.jpg?dl=0

This has me wondering:
A. Is it possible that the flanged-pulleys are not advisable because the serp experiences (normal) lateral-play during engine-torque variation? Could the serp "stripping" (pic) be caused by the pulley-flange cutting into an over-lapping belt?
Minor lateral-play would not seem to pose a problem on the flange-less, smooth-surfaced OEM pulleys.
B. The setup calls for a tighter(shorter) belt?


Belt stripping is what caused me to relocate my tensioner. Apparently the pulley Flash uses solves this problem :?:
Author:  Gypsy62 [ Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
Re serp-stripping, i suppose I'm forgetting the fact that for the past >two-weeks I've been using various flanged-pulleys in different setups without any stripping issues.
I thought Flash and I were using very similar replacement flanged-pulleys at IPA. I believe his IPA is slightly larger and therefore won't clear the MF(mechfan) pulley when mounted on the stock bracket (?)

In my experiments with various MF-delete setups, the MF-pulley never obstructed any substitute-IPA's nor the re-routed serp.
The only reason the stock MF/IPA bracket can't remain installed in my desired winter/summer serp-setups:
A. The stock bracket's IPA mounting-bolt is reverse-threaded, hence the IPA can gradually vibrate-loose due to the opposite rotational-force of the 'flipped' serp-routing.
B. The MF-Pulley's hub protrudes too far forward, obstructing electric fan installation.

NOW I JUST NEED TO GET THIS %#%@& OEM FAN-CIRCUIT WORKING! GRRRRRRRR !!!
I'm using the OEM fan-supply plug, ground/low/high.
Is there cause to suspect that the stock-ground is not reliable?
I'm not sure which of the supply-hots are low/high so I have them "temporarily" -but solidly- connected; as soon as the fan kicked-on I was going to unplug each feed to determine which energized first. Presumably, that would be the LOW supply, and then I'd crimp-in & seal the butt-connectors permanently.
On the taurus fan's pigtail the hot-wires are noticeably different gauges, making the LOW-line identification elementary (thinner wire). I'll take a closer look at the CRD's OEM pigtail, but I don't recall an obvious difference in wire-gauges. Maybe the wiring-diagram that Flash kindly posted shows wire-ID visual specs.
Author:  Mountainman [ Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
Not sure, but I got a plastic Gates pulley from NAPA and it sure has a loose bearing from the factory. It stripped two belts, and so I just eliminated the need for the extra pulley, but I get slight belt slip, so I need to change again.

The ground under the battery box is often corroded, but not sure if that's in the fan circuit.
Author:  flash7210 [ Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
Gypsy62 wrote:
Re serp-stripping, i suppose I'm forgetting the fact that for the past >two-weeks I've been using various flanged-pulleys in different setups without any stripping issues.
I thought Flash and I were using very similar replacement flanged-pulleys at IPA. I believe his IPA is slightly larger and therefore won't clear the MF(mechfan) pulley when mounted on the stock bracket (?)


Correct.
My pulley is larger, flanged, and will not clear the MF pulley.
I too had a problem with my belt stripping, casued by two things:
1. belt was too tight, tensioner was all the way at the end of its travel
2. tensioner was pulled so tight that its pulley was being pulled at an angle away from the engine and therefore pulling the belt out of alignment with the other pulleys

Switching to a slightly longer belt and replacing the factory original tensioner fixed the problem.

Quote:
I'm using the OEM fan-supply plug, ground/low/high.
Is there cause to suspect that the stock-ground is not reliable?


Easy test you can perform.
1. turn key on
2. remove fan low relay, fan should cone on at low speed
3. replace fan low relay
4. remove fan high relay, fan should come on at low speed
5. replace fan high relay
If the fan relay does not come on when either relay is pulled, either the fuse is blown or there is a problem with your fan wiring.
Author:  Gypsy62 [ Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
On it.
(drum-roll...)
:pepper:
Whoo-Hoo! Howling Fan! & high-low supply-wires were reversed.
:BANANA:

However, I'm doubtful that solves the question "why" the fan-circuit still wouldn't activate after the gauge reached 3/4...

Thanks, Flash!

MM- RE ground under battery, as a precaution I reinforced it during major surgery: ground-off corrosion/paint, drilled-out old bolt and installed stainless w/lock washers (=30-year plan).
Pics on one of my threads.
Author:  ryanchris [ Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
On the belt length problem... I have a metal pulley that is alittle larger than the one i think you are currently runnning.. Maybe .25 inches. I have the belt you recommended now 101.5 ... It doesn't seem overly tight but i havent ran it just installed it. You think going an inch shorter would help?
Author:  flash7210 [ Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
This is why I like ACdelco belts.
Its easy to figure out belt length by part number.

A ACdelco 6K1015 = 6 ribs, 101.5 inches long
----------- 6K1020 = 6 rids, 102.0 inches long (half inch longer)

In my case, I went from a 6K810 to a 6K815.
The extra half inch was all that was needed.
Author:  ryanchris [ Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
Specs according to ROCKauto

His pulley is CONTINENTAL 49016 or similar

Pulley Outer Diameter (IN) 3.543
Pulley Outer Diameter (MM) 90.000
Pulley Width (IN) 1.031
Pulley Width (mm) 26.200

Mine is CONTINENTAL 50003

Pulley Outer Diameter (IN) 3.803
Pulley Outer Diameter (MM) 96.600
Pulley Width (IN) 1.209
Pulley Width (mm) 30.700

Side note this is probably the biggest pulley that will clear the fan and everything else stock. Its a belt and a half or so from the mech fan pulley.

There isnt much tension on the belt. It was easier to get on than the stock one for me. I currently went with the 101.5 6K1015 mentioned and was thinking i might be a bit tighter than him do to the bigger pulley. Now i am thinking 1005k6 or 1000k6??
Author:  Gypsy62 [ Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
Again, Flash solved his serp-stripping problem by going 1/2" LONGER, NOT, repeat NOT, shorter serp.

I just installed a 30-amp fused/battery-fed dash-switch for the elec-fan's HIGH circuit. I spliced-it with the CRD's OEM high-supply in the hope that the stock cooling system will magically start activating the fan-circuit, lol. Hopefully, the jeep won't explode from back-feeding 30-amps of current into the fan circuit's HIGH line.

If somebody guides me to solving the stock-activation mystery, at least these shenanigans have yielded a handy, robust switched-circuit available for other under-hood mischief.
Author:  Gypsy62 [ Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
Misc pics w/ custom IPA-Bracket installed.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xap2hvjbr8moc ... 3.jpg?dl=0
That's the serp-clearance above tensioner-pulley. This is currently a VH/IPB/AC/MF-delete setup, using 76" belt, stock-diameter but Flanged tensioner-pulley & the larger IPA listed earlier.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/20a7qg7sk4j9j ... 8.jpg?dl=0
That's a shot looking-down at the HB(harmonic-balancer) w/out any MF-Pulley protruding.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/hnjpqz5w5t2b7 ... 1.jpg?dl=0
With the serp routed directly ALT-HB, that pic shows the clearance off the IPB; I left it mounted because it isn't in the way and it will be back in-line for my "summer" setup w/AC back aboard.

With taurus-fan installed, not tons of space for it's plug & wiring but adequate:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4pvt01dy31gi3 ... 2.jpg?dl=0
Author:  Gypsy62 [ Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Serpentine Belt replacement and or modification: opinion
After 3ish weeks with new setup, yesterday the serp lost a 1-rib strip; the remaining 5-ribs of its belt-width look fine. If curious, it was the forward-most strip, suggesting that at least one of the stock HB/PS/ALT pulleys biases towards front of vehicle.

I think this is the fault of the replacement 'flanged' idler pulleys, NOT the newly fabricated 1/2 bracket nor serp-tension.

Makes sense. Given that all three of the stock idler pulleys are smooth-surfaced, logic suggests that the engineers recognized that the idlers needed to 'absorb' some nominal lateral serp-travel between the (flanged) accessories' pulleys.

A visual doesn't reveal any warping or weirdness, everything spins in nice and smooth alignment.

I'll list the PN of the correct-diameter smooth-surface replacement pulleys 'later'.

UPDATE:
It's significant that others have substituted flanged pulleys for the stock smooth without suffering any long-term serp-strippage.

After further reflection, I realized that it can't be ruled out that the prototype bracket's pulley-alignment could be partially/wholly responsible for the serp damage. It may be slightly over-biased towards the rear. It's also possible that the axis of the pulley-mount on the prototype is not precisely square (presuming that the OEM MF bracket is designed with a squared axis...).

I'm going to more thoroughly compare the factory MF bracket to the proto and instruct the fab shop to modify future brackets accordingly. My prediction is that further scrutiny will advise adjusting the pulley-mount 2-3mm (shy of a full 'strip-width') further forward. Setting aside whether the proto's pulley-mount issue is height and/or axis-related, the fact that it took 3 weeks to 'rip a strip' off the serp suggests that it is pretty close to perfect.

I stand by my observation regarding smooth vs flanged pulleys. Factory engineers may have been anticipating that over time the 'normal-wear' to the pulley-bearings of serp-driven accessories would cause a measure of belt-deflection. Specifying smooth-faced idler pulleys would permit lateral 'forgiveness' without the hazard of an unyielding flange.
I'll continue to use the prototype bracket but source a smooth pulley. Without a flange-lip digging into the serp's edge I seriously doubt it will damage the belt. That should apply regardless whether the stripping-culprit was the proto's height, axis, or both.
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