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 Post subject: Re: Temp in the Teens....No start
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:26 pm 
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TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:
Hook the coolant lines of the heater to the cooling system by plumbing through the viscous heater and the thermostat assembly; this method saves you from having to pull the engine to get directly at the block, but there is 1 negative to this method. When your correctly installed Webasto starts to heat up when it is switched on, it will heat the thermostat first. The temperature sending unit that feeds readings to the computer will shut off the glow plug circuit before the engine has a chance to warm up the block. This is O.K., because the Webasto heater is so powerful, it will heat up your engine faster than idling it to warm it up; you just have to realise that it is not O.K. to use the Webasto heater for only 5 minutes and expect it to start your engine. The block will still be stone cold, the thermostat will be hot and your glow plug circuit will be shut off.
Are you saying it should dump the heated water into the thermostat housing? This seems backwards since that's the engine's coolant outlet ... if you start the engine while the Webasto is running, the engine's water pump and the Webasto's circulation pump will be working against each other (and I'd assume the engine's pump would win since it's much larger).

I'm not 100% sure what Webasto's installation guide says (since it's written in German and the English-translated version isn't translated very well - I think someone just ran it through Google Translate or something) but I think they want you to take coolant from the thermostat housing and then pump the heated coolant to the heater core. From there it goes to the engine's water pump inlet, which sends it into the block, then up into the head and back out the thermostat housing again.

Putting the heated coolant into the thermostat housing has the advantage of warming the head first (I get the impression that a warm head is more helpful than a warm block, but I could be wrong on that), but having the Webasto's circulation pump running opposite the engine's water pump would concern me if the engine were started while the Webasto's running.


Last edited by joe_ on Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Temp in the Teens....No start
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:34 pm 
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ryanchris wrote:
But just a thought on the Webastos and the piping. Couldnt I used the hole in the block where i installed the plug deleting the coolant line from the old egr system and pipe it in through that way? Assuming the heating unit has some kinda circulation of the fluid that way the coolant could move its way through the block right? Then just have the feed line tee of of some other place near the thermostat maybe or the vh lines.
You could do that, but I think it would be less than ideal. The EGR cooler connection on the head is in the middle of the head (between cylinders 2 and 3) and the thermostat is at the front of the head (near/in front of cylinder 1). So if you connected it to those two points, you'd only be heating the front half (cylinders 1 and 2) of the head and leaving the back half cold as well as the entire block. But it would probably heat up pretty quickly since you're only heating a small portion of the engine :D


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 Post subject: Re: Temp in the Teens....No start
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:59 pm 
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Yeah I see what you mean joe. Like I said I didn't put much thought into it other than thinking about the plug I installed with the egr delete, not even sure if I still have it. I looked at them a little at work and if it really gets to bothering me I might get a snugged they don't seem a bad deal for around half and good reviews from truckers that I saw.

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 Post subject: Re: Temp in the Teens....No start
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:00 pm 
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ryanchris wrote:
TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:
ryanchris:

Go out and splurge on a Webasto TSL17 engine coolant heater... get the heater in a 923369 universal installation kit for all diesel powered vehicles that run on 12 Volt electricity. Install it using a Sasquatch Motorsports battery tray - it has a spot created under the battery for the heater to be conveniently mounted. Drop your fuel tank and install the fuel feed line SEPARATELY from main fuel line, and while you have the tank dropped, install an in-tank fuel lift pump because that is the BEST place for a lift pump to be.

Hook the coolant lines of the heater to the cooling system by plumbing through the viscous heater and the thermostat assembly; this method saves you from having to pull the engine to get directly at the block, but there is 1 negative to this method. When your correctly installed Webasto starts to heat up when it is switched on, it will heat the thermostat first. The temperature sending unit that feeds readings to the computer will shut off the glow plug circuit before the engine has a chance to warm up the block. This is O.K., because the Webasto heater is so powerful, it will heat up your engine faster than idling it to warm it up; you just have to realise that it is not O.K. to use the Webasto heater for only 5 minutes and expect it to start your engine. The block will still be stone cold, the thermostat will be hot and your glow plug circuit will be shut off.

Give the Webasto heater a chance to warm up your engine, and you can kiss all of your cold start problems good bye. The Webasto TSL17 is called that because at full blast it pumps out 17,000 BTU of heat... this is fully 12.5 times the heating capability of your block heater. Enough heat will be generated that you will never have to idle your engine to warm it up again... you will save a significant amount of fuel and wear and tear on your engine. You will also do an end run around the glow plug issues that the CRD has, because by preheating the engine with the Webasto they will never be called upon to turn on again. You can remove your great working but fragile ceramic glow plugs and install the durable steel but poorly performing plugs and never worry about having to starting again. A CRD owner who has a Webasto heater installed says that at -17 degrees Fahrenheit, his CRD warms up without being plugged in to a point where the needle is a the 1/4 mark in about 25 minutes.

While you are at it, consider installing a real engine thermostat assembly in your rig. Cheap and very effective thermostat valve replacements in the future. Way better heat, tighter control over engine temperatures, and better fuel economy will result. There is a sale locally here in Edmonton for Webasto heaters, and I can put together a package deal with the sale of a Hot Diesel Solutions Model 001 engine thermostat assembly if you wish.


That sounds awesome. I have looked into the Webastos before and they make some nice stuff. I was thinking about using one for a camping rig as a air temp heater. But they are alittle pricey for me at the moment with all the other money i have put into this beast. I do like your thermostat housing, but I hollowed the factory one out, and installed a jegs inline one with replaceable unit right after the factory hollowed out one before i knew about yours. It seems to work well. I like the jegs inline better because it bolts together and doesn't twist together like the others and have a change to work its way loose.

But just a thought on the Webastos and the piping. Couldnt I used the hole in the block where i installed the plug deleting the coolant line from the old egr system and pipe it in through that way? Assuming the heating unit has some kinda circulation of the fluid that way the coolant could move its way through the block right? Then just have the feed line tee of of some other place near the thermostat maybe or the vh lines. Maybe even use the space left vacant by the egr stuff to mount the heater...I am just guessing btw and have not looked into it or anything just a thought that crossed my mind when i read your comment.



There are several ways to plumb in a Webasto heater, and the way you are thinking of doing it is probably fine. The owner's manual has some helpful hints on the proper ways to plumb in the heater, and going directly to the block is the most effective way. The heater is so powerful for this application that it is hard to mess this part of the installation up. I think the power of the heater is why the normal method of hooking the hot line low on the block and the return line through the cylinder head was ignored in this application, because I think you have to pull the engine to do this or at least remove a lot of parts off of the engine to get to the ideal spots on the block and the cylinder head.

With your modified thermostat set up, at least you had the good sense to remove the guts of the O.E. housing. The overall effect of your set up should be O.K., but I think your cooling capacity in high demand situations might be adversely affected due to the fact that you have a bypass circuit that is permanently open now... this diverts at least some of the hot coolant back to the engine when it should be going through the radiator circuit.

I had a friend use a Webasto bunk heater to heat his Mac Tool truck, and it was constantly breaking down because he was asking it to heat too much volume. However, if you are only going to heat a small volume about the size of a sleeping bunk in a transport truck, I think you will be O.K. Depending upon the size of the volume for your camping application, I think you would be better off using a propane heating set-up.


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 Post subject: Re: Temp in the Teens....No start
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:13 pm 
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joe_ wrote:
TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:
Hook the coolant lines of the heater to the cooling system by plumbing through the viscous heater and the thermostat assembly; this method saves you from having to pull the engine to get directly at the block, but there is 1 negative to this method. When your correctly installed Webasto starts to heat up when it is switched on, it will heat the thermostat first. The temperature sending unit that feeds readings to the computer will shut off the glow plug circuit before the engine has a chance to warm up the block. This is O.K., because the Webasto heater is so powerful, it will heat up your engine faster than idling it to warm it up; you just have to realise that it is not O.K. to use the Webasto heater for only 5 minutes and expect it to start your engine. The block will still be stone cold, the thermostat will be hot and your glow plug circuit will be shut off.
Are you saying it should dump the heated water into the thermostat housing? This seems backwards since that's the engine's coolant outlet ... if you start the engine while the Webasto is running, the engine's water pump and the Webasto's circulation pump will be working against each other (and I'd assume the engine's pump would win since it's much larger).

I'm not 100% sure what Webasto's installation guide says (since it's written in Russian and the English-translated version isn't translated very well - I think someone just ran it through Google Translate or something) but I think they want you to take coolant from the thermostat housing and then pump the heated coolant to the heater core. From there it goes to the engine's water pump inlet, which sends it into the block, then up into the head and back out the thermostat housing again.

Putting the heated coolant into the thermostat housing has the advantage of warming the head first (I get the impression that a warm head is more helpful than a warm block, but I could be wrong on that), but having the Webasto's circulation pump running opposite the engine's water pump would concern me if the engine were started while the Webasto's running.



For the record, I have not installed my Webasto heaters in my CRDs yet. The information regarding installation of a Webasto heater for the CRD was through a fellow who did it this way from German Webasto instructions he obtained. Again, I think the reason for the less than ideal location for the installation of the coolant lines in this application is directly a result of the massive amounts of heat the TSL17 pumps out... plumb it in anywhere and the engine is going to warm up very quickly. It also saves a lot of labour from having to plumb in directly to the block.

This is the exact same heater I used in a Mac Tri-Drive tractor that had an engine that likely weighed well over 3,000 lbs, so you can see how much overkill it is in the CRD engine application. This is a good thing, because it heats the engine so fast that you can use it to get to the 170 degree Fahrenheit thermostatically controlled shut off temperature without ever starting the engine.


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 Post subject: Re: Temp in the Teens....No start
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:11 am 
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Wish I had some advice or insight but this is the first winter I've had my KJ CRD.

Don't know where you are in KY but I'm between Lexington & Louisville. Thursday when it was 10*F I needed to go to town and took the Jeep. It was plugged in over night only to discover my block heater doesn't work :cry: . I already knew that I have one bad glow plug according to the CEL but they are back ordered and won't be here until Jan 19th :x .

So I let it cycle twice and cranked. It fired pretty quick and smoothed out in just a couple seconds. Made a lot of smoke though at first.

I know the same engines can behave differently (my 1st Gen Cummins starts without the block heater while other's won't) but seems like ours should behave similar under similar conditions? Maybe you just got a bad tank of fuel?

Headed to town again now but it is a warm 27*F here now...

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 Post subject: Re: Temp in the Teens....No start
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:18 am 
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I am just a little south of Louisville in central ky my myself so pretty close. Thanks for the info. Another member mentioned my starter might be on its way out since my Volta drop into the low 9s after trying to start for a few secs. I might try to switch it out and see.

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 Post subject: Re: Temp in the Teens....No start
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:10 pm 
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Could it be a failing crank-shaft sensor?


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 Post subject: Re: Temp in the Teens....No start
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:35 pm 
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Maybe load test the battery? Autozone can do it for free.


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 Post subject: Re: Temp in the Teens....No start
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:33 pm 
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Battery is like 2 weeks old and they load tested it at batteries plus before I bought it. It can crank all day it seems but it does start to drop the volts after 10 or 15 secs cranking... Quickly recovers when I stop though so I doubt it. In the process of pulling the starter now top bolt is a b and I can't find my wobble so I took a break.

I guess if that sensor is cold sensitive maybe... it started fine this morning on the plug (baby bottle)... So idk.

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 Post subject: Re: Temp in the Teens....No start
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:47 pm 
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Small update. Found my wobble got the starter off and tested it at the house it didnt seem right so i took it to the parts store and after a few passing tests it failed. So i guess when it was more stressed in the cold from longer runs it was failing and during the warmer times it was not taxed and ok. Or at least thats the hope. I guess i should be glad it didnt fail out somewhere.. Add another part to my list ha.. Hopefully this will fix the cold start but wont know for a day or two since it will not be in until tomrrow and ill have to cold soak it to check.

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 Post subject: Re: Temp in the Teens....No start
PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:29 am 
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Hope that solves it for you. Should be able to stress test it well the next few days - supposed to be 1*F Tuesday morning!

How much trouble was it to get to the starter?

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 Post subject: Re: Temp in the Teens....No start
PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 6:56 am 
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IT IS -32 DEGREES CELSIUS, (-26 DEGREES FAHRENHEIT), RIGHT NOW IN EDMONTON.... RECORD COLD AND COLDER THAN THE NORTH POLE RIGHT NOW!


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 Post subject: Re: Temp in the Teens....No start
PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 10:48 am 
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TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:
IT IS -32 DEGREES CELSIUS, (-26 DEGREES FAHRENHEIT), RIGHT NOW IN EDMONTON.... RECORD COLD AND COLDER THAN THE NORTH POLE RIGHT NOW!

Dang thats COLD, makes me shiver just reading it! :shock:
It's was a balmy +32 deg.s F here in central GA this morning... :D

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 Post subject: Re: Temp in the Teens....No start
PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:19 pm 
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WWDiesel wrote:
TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:
IT IS -32 DEGREES CELSIUS, (-26 DEGREES FAHRENHEIT), RIGHT NOW IN EDMONTON.... RECORD COLD AND COLDER THAN THE NORTH POLE RIGHT NOW!

Dang thats COLD, makes me shiver just reading it! :shock:
It's was a balmy +32 deg.s F here in central GA this morning... :D



I party naked in Central GA weather.


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 Post subject: Re: Temp in the Teens....No start
PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 8:06 pm 
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krb wrote:
Hope that solves it for you. Should be able to stress test it well the next few days - supposed to be 1*F Tuesday morning!

How much trouble was it to get to the starter?


I hope so too. But the truck didnt come because of the holiday errrr.. I think i might just order a remy one on amazon for less $$$ in case it isnt the issue.

The starter wasnt too bad once i decided to use wrenches and go slow, only bolt that is hard is the one on the top. Just layed under the jeep drivers side and took it out. The lift on mine helps some since i dont eve have to jack it up most of the time.

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 Post subject: Re: Temp in the Teens....No start
PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 8:58 pm 
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I have alot of experience on this glow plug system. If functioning right you wont have any probs, somewhere i have a video of it somewhere at -10°f and starting up on the first crank within 3 seconds.

You most likely have a poopy ground, or a bad ambient air temp sensor or bad connection to the sensor.

The ground for the glow plug module is located on a stud between the brake booster and driver fender. 10mm socket, un do it, clean it, re install. Theres another ground by the drivers head light, clean and reinstall. Then give her a go and let us know. This is a pretty simple system, so there isnt much that can really go wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Temp in the Teens....No start
PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 12:47 am 
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TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:
I party naked in Central GA weather.

:!: :shock: :!: :shock: T.M.I.!! :goink:


HAPPY NEW YEAR !!

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 Post subject: Re: Temp in the Teens....No start
PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:22 am 
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GordnadoCRD wrote:
TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:
I party naked in Central GA weather.

:!: :shock: :!: :shock: T.M.I.!! :goink:


HAPPY NEW YEAR !!



Yeah, I would agree... you really would not want to see me naked... My Wife... maybe, but definitely not me. :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Temp in the Teens....No start
PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:30 am 
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diesel_guy86 wrote:
...You most likely have a poopy ground, or a bad ambient air temp sensor or bad connection to the sensor.

The ground for the glow plug module is located on a stud between the brake booster and driver fender. 10mm socket, un do it, clean it, re install. Theres another ground by the drivers head light, clean and reinstall. Then give her a go and let us know. This is a pretty simple system, so there isnt much that can really go wrong.


Hmmm, I've owned Mopars for 38 years and wiring has always been a weak link, especially grounding. Now that Jeep is in the family, that might be worth a try.

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