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 Post subject: Best way to operate glow plugs in cold weather
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:02 pm 
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Hi all,

With recent cold weather here in the Midwest I am trying to figure out the best way to operate my not-so-effective Etecno 7V glow plugs. My glow plug delay light on the dash always goes out in like 3-5 seconds after the key is switched to the ignition (pardon my non-diesel jargon) position regardless of the engine/coolant temperature. Looks like there is just some built in fixed time delay. I saw recommendations to wait longer; someone else suggested to repeat the switch on - switch off sequence several times. In any case it seems that having glow plugs on for longer time prior to cranking should help. So what is the current consensus on the best way to achieve that? Do glow plugs turn off the moment dash light goes off?

Thanks in advance,
Alex

P.S. Yes, 5V glow plugs are definitely on my bucket list, but I need to see my heating bill first...

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 Post subject: Re: Best way to operate glow plugs in cold weather
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:31 pm 
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As I understand, the light goes out well before the glow plugs shut off. To make sure they are hot you can try:

Turning the key on waiting about the amount of time listed in the thread below.
Turning the key off and back on wait the time listed in the thread below.
Then try and crank the engine.


There is a table of pre start glow plug times in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=83561


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 Post subject: Re: Best way to operate glow plugs in cold weather
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:56 pm 
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This is the heat cycle according to the FSM:
Notice the "Wait to Start Lamp On" times!
Some have posted that the table may not be fully accurate! :roll:

Image

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Last edited by WWDiesel on Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:40 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Best way to operate glow plugs in cold weather
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:52 pm 
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The tactic I adopted (and this was used down to 5°F):

- Turn key to 'ON', wait until seat belt chimes stop. Turn key to 'OFF'.
- Repeat the above two more times.

Didn't have any issues with cold starts. They weren't what you'd call instantaneous, but they were much easier than without doing so and I din't have that sinking sensation of, 'oh God, am I going to flatten the battery completely this time?' going along with cranking it over.

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 Post subject: Re: Best way to operate glow plugs in cold weather
PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:09 pm 
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WWDiesel wrote:
This is the heat cycle according to the FSM:
Notice the "Wait to Start Lamp On" times!
Some have posted that the table may not be fully accurate! :roll:

Image


Thanks WW, but I suspect this data is indeed at least not fully accurate. My recent experience in northern Wisconsin where it was definitely colder than -10C, "wait to start lamp on" time was still as short as usual. While I didn't use the stop watch I presume I should be able to tell the difference between 1 and 10 seconds! BTW the engine refused to start after multiple attempts, it fired up only after using the block heater for half an hour. This "light on" was also just as short when the temperatures dropped to -29C (-20F), but then I was using the block heater overnight, so the experiment was not clean.

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 Post subject: Re: Best way to operate glow plugs in cold weather
PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:17 pm 
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casm wrote:
The tactic I adopted (and this was used down to 5°F):

- Turn key to 'ON', wait until seat belt chimes stop. Turn key to 'OFF'.
- Repeat the above two more times.

Didn't have any issues with cold starts. They weren't what you'd call instantaneous, but they were much easier than without doing so and I din't have that sinking sensation of, 'oh God, am I going to flatten the battery completely this time?' going along with cranking it over.


Great, thanks, will try that once it gets cold again next week!
A.

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 Post subject: Re: Best way to operate glow plugs in cold weather
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:50 pm 
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BoarX wrote:
WWDiesel wrote:
This is the heat cycle according to the FSM:
Notice the "Wait to Start Lamp On" times!
Some have posted that the table may not be fully accurate! :roll:

Image


Thanks WW, but I suspect this data is indeed at least not fully accurate. My recent experience in northern Wisconsin where it was definitely colder than -10C, "wait to start lamp on" time was still as short as usual. While I didn't use the stop watch I presume I should be able to tell the difference between 1 and 10 seconds! BTW the engine refused to start after multiple attempts, it fired up only after using the block heater for half an hour. This "light on" was also just as short when the temperatures dropped to -29C (-20F), but then I was using the block heater overnight, so the experiment was not clean.
Somewhere I came across a .pdf ("KJ 2.5L/2.8L Diesel Supplement") explaining the glow plug system, and it has that same table. It also mentions 12 volt glow plugs and two relays, with each relay controlling two glow plugs. Sounds like the older 2002-2004 glow plug system. In other words, I'm thinking that table was incorrectly carried over into the 2005+ service manuals from the older manuals which pertain to the old 12 volt glow plug system.

edit: I figured out where that .pdf came from; here: http://www.colorado4wheel.com/manuals/Jeep/KJ/2.5_2.8_export_diesel/2.5CRD.pdf


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 Post subject: Re: Best way to operate glow plugs in cold weather
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:07 pm 
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Etecno1 makes a 12v glow plug for the Euro-Cherokee-CRDs I don't know if they will fit the domestic ones or not. Or if they even ship them here. IIRC it was an Italian vendor on Ebay.

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 Post subject: Re: Best way to operate glow plugs in cold weather
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:02 pm 
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joe_ wrote:
BoarX wrote:
WWDiesel wrote:
This is the heat cycle according to the FSM:
Notice the "Wait to Start Lamp On" times!
Some have posted that the table may not be fully accurate! :roll:

Image


Thanks WW, but I suspect this data is indeed at least not fully accurate. My recent experience in northern Wisconsin where it was definitely colder than -10C, "wait to start lamp on" time was still as short as usual. While I didn't use the stop watch I presume I should be able to tell the difference between 1 and 10 seconds! BTW the engine refused to start after multiple attempts, it fired up only after using the block heater for half an hour. This "light on" was also just as short when the temperatures dropped to -29C (-20F), but then I was using the block heater overnight, so the experiment was not clean.
Somewhere I came across a .pdf ("KJ 2.5L/2.8L Diesel Supplement") explaining the glow plug system, and it has that same table. It also mentions 12 volt glow plugs and two relays, with each relay controlling two glow plugs. Sounds like the older 2002-2004 glow plug system. In other words, I'm thinking that table was incorrectly carried over into the 2005+ service manuals from the older manuals which pertain to the old 12 volt glow plug system.

edit: I figured out where that .pdf came from; here: http://www.colorado4wheel.com/manuals/Jeep/KJ/2.5_2.8_export_diesel/2.5CRD.pdf

The table I published came out of the 2005 CRD Service Manual I have on file! It is not for the export version, but rather the domestic US version!

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Last edited by WWDiesel on Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Best way to operate glow plugs in cold weather
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:49 pm 
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WWDiesel wrote:
The table I published came out of the 2005 CRD Service Manual I have on file! It is not for the export version, but rather the domestic US version!
I know, I've seen that table in the 2005 manual as well. But I think it was an error on DiamlerChrysler's part to include that in the 2005+ manuals. The factory glow plug systems are drastically different between the 2002-2004 and the 2005-2007 models; I can't imagine that info is correct for both systems. I think it should've been updated but was overlooked.


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 Post subject: Re: Best way to operate glow plugs in cold weather
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:48 pm 
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I just mentioned the 12v ones, as folks have expressed interest in having a manually operated 12v system in the past.

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 Post subject: Re: Best way to operate glow plugs in cold weather
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:49 am 
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Though we don't have Wisconsin cold here in the Eastern Oregon mountains it does occasionally get in the single digits and negatives from time to time. Mostly I cheat and plug her in overnight when this happens but occasionally I will forget and have used this procedure with great success when it's below 0 F. Turn on ignition and count to 30. Turn of and repeat. On wicked cold mornings do this a third time and it will start right up. Make sure you have a good battery! I still have the factory battery in my current Libby by the way with 160K. Hope this helps.

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 Post subject: Re: Best way to operate glow plugs in cold weather
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:35 pm 
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BoarX wrote:
WWDiesel wrote:
This is the heat cycle according to the FSM:
Notice the "Wait to Start Lamp On" times!
Some have posted that the table may not be fully accurate! :roll:

Image


Thanks WW, but I suspect this data is indeed at least not fully accurate. My recent experience in northern Wisconsin where it was definitely colder than -10C, "wait to start lamp on" time was still as short as usual. While I didn't use the stop watch I presume I should be able to tell the difference between 1 and 10 seconds! BTW the engine refused to start after multiple attempts, it fired up only after using the block heater for half an hour. This "light on" was also just as short when the temperatures dropped to -29C (-20F), but then I was using the block heater overnight, so the experiment was not clean.


To add to that, as could be seen from several clips on YouTube showing CRD cold starts, the "wait to start" lamp goes off in couple of seconds most even at temperatures as low as -35C(-31F) (!)

https://youtu.be/zWhtoHv9y7U

Clearly something is not quite right in this table.

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 Post subject: Re: Best way to operate glow plugs in cold weather
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:25 pm 
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Hi all,

OK, with all this endless cold and poor starts, it suddenly dawned on me that I could perform a very simple test of my glow plug timing. After my Liberty having sat overnight in the driveway at freezing temperatures (it was exactly 0C (32F) in the morning at the time of the test), I disconnected the wire from my #1 Etechno 7V glow plug and snapped it onto an old ceramic Bosh one instead. Holding that old plug with my hand next to an electrical ground, I observed the following:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jHTvh3 ... sp=sharing

The plug gets turned on on second 2, when the ignition key click and subsequent controller buzz can be heard. Sorry for loud birds, but hopefully this is the sign of spring is finally coming :) Importantly, the plug is seen to turn off on second 14, for the total of "on" time of just 12 seconds. This is in stark contrast with the data of the FSM table posted above by WWDiesel. According to it, even at 10C (50F) the glow should last 21 seconds. Factor of 2 discrepancy???

By the way, can anyone confirm that the observed glow of the ceramic plug looks normal? Watching this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKHgTaylCW0

of (presumably colder) Etechno glow plug makes me suspicious. Maybe my grounding was poor though... BTW, this video shows the plug glow for ~10 seconds at simulated 0F (-18C) deg. Clearly another mysterious deviation from FSM data.

Happy tax time everyone,
Alex

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 Post subject: Re: Best way to operate glow plugs in cold weather
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 1:15 am 
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I have the Etechno metal glow plugs. I had a terrible time starting last winter. I ohmed out the block heater and found that it was bad (not just a bad cable). I replace the block heater last summer, and as long as the block heater is plugged in overnight, the car always starts with only waiting for the chimes to stop. Also, the top of the engine is warm to the touch. If your engine is not warm, and you are having trouble starting with your block heater plugged in, it's probably a bad cord or bad heater. The heater cost $35 at IDparts.

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 Post subject: Re: Best way to operate glow plugs in cold weather
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:48 pm 
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O.k., here's how it works.

Turn the key, wait until the stupid dinging noise stops, then count out loud to 3.

Try to start it 3 times until the RPM's move.

If it keeps dying, reach under the seat and grab the ether.

Open the air intake box, and squirt for about 1/2 a second into the TOP SECTION where you can see the MAF sensor in the line.

Jog around to the driver seat and start it.


Works every time!

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 Post subject: Re: Best way to operate glow plugs in cold weather
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 1:39 pm 
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You can get a lot of comments on using ether in a diesel engine both pros and cons. :roll:

Some things to consider:
Using ether in an engine with glow plugs can be like playing Russian roulette. It may work a few times, but it only takes one bad event to turn an engine and / or ancillary parts into scrap metal.
-----Blowing the head gasket, blowing a chamber out of the head, bending a rod, cracking a piston, backfiring into the intake, exploding the intercooler (CAC) and fire can be some of the results of the use of ether.
Ether use also removes the lubricating qualities of oil on the cylinders so the rings wear harder on the walls.
Some recommend using WD40 since it has some lubricating properties and is a light lubricating fluid with some aromatics in it so less damaging but still for the long haul fix whatever is ailing the starting system and do not use any starting fluid of any kind.

Personally, I would not spray any combustible into a diesel engines intake system.
You may get away with it on gassers, but even on gassers I have seen it blow air filters apart.
Can be very dangerous stuff, so if you use it, please be extra very careful!

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 Post subject: Re: Best way to operate glow plugs in cold weather
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 1:45 pm 
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Everyone says this, and I take it with the nominal grain of salt that I do everything I read on here.

I've been around Diesels for the past 20 years. Not just tiny ones like the ones in our Libby, but also gigantic 16 cylinder 4000 horsepower monsters in locomotives, big excavators, railroad equipment, etc.

I've NEVER seen a head gasket explosion, bent rod, cracked piston... or any of the things you've mentioned, happen when using ether (or one of the newer starting fluids with lubricity included into them) to start one. Common Rail, standard, etc.

Although, back to the grain of salt, I also use it sparingly (thus the half second), and I would imagine that most usually (Like some of the head gasket issues we see here) it's more from abuse than from a true failure of the parts or materials used.

Now, I'm not saying they all are, but I know there are some, and I've repaired some of them with my own 2 hands.

Eh, do what you want, but have some darn sense I guess....

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 Post subject: Re: Best way to operate glow plugs in cold weather
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:36 pm 
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I agree with all of your statements, but not everyone is cognisant of the dangers of starting fluid and how to use it properly in a diesel engine...
One misuse could be catastrophic...
Plenty of reading on the internet about the dangers and consequences of using ether in diesel engines.
Everyone should do their own research and learn how to use it properly.
I certainly don't make this stuff up. :roll:

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Blk Brush Guard/Hella's/LED's
Ironman Springs/Bilstein's
Yeti Stg4 MaxTune
Weeks ElbowKit/BatteryTray
NO FCV/EGR
Samcos/ProVent
SunCoast/Transgo
Carter Intank-pump
2mic.Sec.Fuel Filter
Flowmaster/NOcat
V6 Airbox
GM11 blade fan/NAPA HDclutch
Ironrock Trilink
98 Dodge Cummins, 5"exh. Viair, Huge K&N


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 Post subject: Re: Best way to operate glow plugs in cold weather
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:43 am 
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Thanks for the tip Hexus, ether (or something similar) is definitely the way to go, at least in an emergency situation. However I have to agree with concerns brought up by WWDiesel too, so will get the bottle of something and keep it in the vehicle for that "snowy" day next to the anti-gel additive.

Dent, I hear you, I have no trouble whatsoever starting the engine with the assistance from the block heater. My personal record was -20F (-29C) with block heater plugged in overnight and battery kept overnight at room temperature. However you have to agree that electricity may not be available everywhere. Also, I have a history of simply forgetting to plug the heater in. On the couple of such occasions I was able to start anyway at -15C (5F), but it was brutal on the engine, the battery and my nerves. I now carry a long extension cord under the rear seat.

Coming back to the topic of this thread, it now seems almost obvious that in our application the glow duration does not change with temperature and is always around 12 seconds. Hence it doesn't make sense to wait for more that 10-12 seconds with key in "on" position, before either starting to crank or repeating the glow cycle.

Thanks again everyone!
Alex

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