05 CRD stall immediately after starting

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Sat Jan 27, 2018 4:26 am

Are you using pump diesel or a partial mix, bio-fuel / fry-oil / black diesel?

What engine oil are you using?

I'm ruling out a faulty injector, at least in my own head, because there's no imbalance. Whatever is making it surge is affecting all cylinders equally.

This actually could be an FCV sticking problem, as WWDiesel pointed out, or even a Fuel Pressure Solenoid sticking problem. I don't see the equipment there for you to spot it. At any instant, the ECM has a "Fuel Pressure Set Point", basically a target figure, that the FCV and FPS working together, try to achieve, as directed by the ECM.

When these components "stick" or fail to make adjustments quickly enough, the fuel pressure will drop, then spike, then drop, ad infinitum. When that happens, it usually expresses it's self with a surging idle like you have. With the proper testing equipment, a good tech could see whether the pressure is gradually dropping, then suddenly spiking high, or vice-versa. Both will cause a surge.
My SWAG, leans me toward the FCV on the rear of the CP3 high pressure pump, as it increases fuel with less electrical input. A sticking FCV would make it slow to increase fuel, slowing the idle speed, then overcompensate, and that super slow fading-away idle speed sounds like it's under-fueling. I have heard engines sound like this in a super super cold weather snap, with many vehicles having way too thick motor oil.
An overfueling condition would more likely be caused by the FPS back of the fuel rail, and usually sounds like a "bouncing" sound idle fluctuation, as if it's "eager to run".

Other things can also make this happen, and without proper testing with proper equipment, I can't narrow it down with any degree of assurance.

The reason I ask about the alternative fuel, is these other fuels have lots of energy, but they require more heat to vaporize, so burn relatively slow at any particular temperature, than proper diesel.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:02 pm

Another thought to add to what Gordon has already mentioned, if over fueling is causing the stalls, then when it does continue running you should see a lot of excess black smoke out the tailpipe... :roll:

After listening to the video, seems to be a fuel starvation (low rail pressure) issue! :roll:

As Gordon pointed out, without sophisticated test equipment, your only choices is to replace the aforementioned items one at a time until you find the culprit.
The FCV is probably the least expensive of the items to try first. :wink:

rankom · **Posted:** Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:51 pm

definitely fuel starvation, problem , again go back to low pressure side make sure that is ok , from fuel tank to CP3 pump , then remove clips and fuel return line from injectors , and run engine to see return amount , also return line fuel from rail. needs to be plumbed and run into fuel container to monitor return and so on , the are some tests that you can do , just ask

highironcrd · **Joined:** Wed Nov 19, 2014 4:52 pm **Posts:** 133

WWDiesel wrote:

If it was a fuel filter issue, it would affect it a whole lot more while running than at startup!
From what you describe, it sounds like it may not be building proper fuel rail pressure at times to allow the injectors to fire while cranking? :roll:

There are several things that can play into this!
Fuel Pressure Solenoid end of fuel rail
Fuel Rail Pressure Sensor side of fuel rail

The below two items are the same thing, but you may see them called two different things.
Located on back of CP3 injection pump:
Fuel Pressure Regulator
Fuel Quality Solenoid

You really need to know what your fuel rail pressure is doing when this phenomenon happens in order to do a proper diagnosis! :roll:

GordonCRD on this forum is really the subject matter expert in this area! :wink:

i agree with what you are saying ive been dealing with injector issues as well as fuel solenoid tests,.it is really surprising how 1 injector off just a bit or totally blown effects the VM Motori, before I started handling my own repairs i had one of the professed best CRD mechanics come look at it, he never diagnosed an overfilling injector and ended up costing me almost 11,000 in repairs

nexus6 · **Joined:** Mon Feb 13, 2017 6:48 am **Posts:** 13

I'm just using pump diesel, nothing exotic. I'm not seeing any significant black smoke. Ill do some moretesting and pay attantion to the amount of smoke.

engine oil is Penrite HPR DIESEL 5 5W-40 (Semi Syn.)

thanks for all the input, i wish i had more test equeipment to diagnose this further. Its frustraiting that OBD doesnt give more data.

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:44 am

nexus6 wrote:

I'm just using pump diesel, nothing exotic. I'm not seeing any significant black smoke. Ill do some moretesting and pay attantion to the amount of smoke.

engine oil is Penrite HPR DIESEL 5 5W-40 (Semi Syn.)

thanks for all the input, i wish i had more test equeipment to diagnose this further. Its frustraiting that OBD doesnt give more data.

Your engine oil is, at very least, a proper viscosity for 'most any substantially populated area on the planet.
And the other knowledge allows some other possibilities to be checked off, and it's sounding more like a Fuel Rail Pressure problem to me.
Most OBD2 readers have a limited amount of live data, and data freeze, (rail pressure as reported by the pressure sensor) but only a fraction of the data that is available. Only a professional diagnostic tool will give the type of information you really need.

Fuel Pressure Set Point
Fuel Pressure Solenoid Duty Cycle
Fuel Quantity Solenoid Duty Cycle
Fuel Rail Pressure graphed over time as compared to the setpoint.

These require a professional (or factory) level diagnostic tool. To do anything more without this data, is just making (somewhat variably educated) guesses.

nexus6 · **Joined:** Mon Feb 13, 2017 6:48 am **Posts:** 13

Checked the codes when it did it again and this time one getting p0090 which I checked and is fuel solenoid open circuit. I'm thinking the is pointing me in the right direction, anyone have tips on how troubleshoot this?

flash7210 · **Posted:** Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:32 pm

P0090 points to the fuel quantity solenoid on the CP3 injection pump.

I had a similar problem.
Turned out to be an intermittent loose connection at the connector to the solenoid.
I spliced in a new connector and all has been good since.

nexus6 · **Joined:** Mon Feb 13, 2017 6:48 am **Posts:** 13

Is this the solenoid at the back of the fuel rail or is it on the fuel pump itself?

flash7210 · **Posted:** Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:33 pm

On the fuel pump.

soz_keogh · **Joined:** Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:39 pm **Posts:** 17

have a 2005 model kj 2.8 crd and have had the exact same problem since i bought the jeep a year ago with 30k miles on it. starts perfectly when cold but if i drive 5 mins and then switch off it starts stumbling and cuts out when i try to start again. can take 4 or 5 tries to get it going again. i read lots of threads on the problem. thought it might be an air in fuel problem and started off by replacing the fuel filter head with the new version. symptoms persisted. then had the quick connectors replaced with clamps on the pipes from the fuel tank. problem persisted but maybe slightly less often. mechanic did a test on all fuel lines between the tank and fuel head and no leak. he thought maybe i had bought a bad new filter head but i didn't want to spend extra money on another new one. i noticed it would start easier when the fuel tank was full and worse when near empty.

since i bought the jeep i believed i had a broken fcv as i could hear the whizzing sound from it when i turned the key to on and for about 10 seconds after shutdown. but the part is so expensive to replace and i already had the maf disconnected so i left well enough alone.

read some threads were people were saying to just disconnect the fcv as it only deals with the egr system but then others were suggesting it would guard against runaway diesel engine so i was reluctant to do anything just in case. although others refute that it would play any role with runaway diesels.

so i lived with the rough warm start for the past year until a few days ago when i bit the bullet and disconnected the connector into the fcv unit.

the engine has started first time ever since cold or warm. don't notice any extra shudder at shutdown as other people have suggested. got a p1140 error as a result of this. however my cel led light bulb doesn't work so no light on dash (the disconnected maf causes an error anyhow) i just pop the obd reader on every now and then to see if there are any new errors.

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:13 pm

If you pull the FCV butterfly valve out, you can plug the FCV back in, to eliminate the dtc code, without suffering from the malfunctioning valve.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:54 am

It is just a matter of disconnecting the intake hose to gain access to four 5mm allen screws holding the FCV unit in place?
Can be done in 30 min.s or less!

Just remove the boost hose, disconnect wires to FCV, and then the 4 small allen head bolts holding the FCV unit to the pipe.
Once you have the FCV unit in your hand, remove the two small T15 torx screws holding the butterfly to the shaft and discard them!
Pull the butterfly plate out of the shaft and discard! Do not put the small screws back in the shaft since if one was to come loose it would be ingested by the motor, not a good thing!!! :roll:

Reinstall the FCV unit using a little sealant with the four small allen head bolts and then reconnect and clamp the boost hose back to the FCV inlet pipe....
Reconnect the wires to the FCV.
Done! :BANANA:

nexus6 · **Joined:** Mon Feb 13, 2017 6:48 am **Posts:** 13

So I had a Diesel mechanic look at it and he says that it is the High Pressure Fuel Pump Pressure Regulator. Id parts has them for $229, am I likely to get the part any cheaper?

Secondly does anyone have a good write up or even better a video on how to replace it? I'm thinking this is something I can do myself but cant find much info on replacing this part

with regards to the FCV valve I'm not sure that's relevant, I have a weeks stage 1 kit installed

flash7210 · **Posted:** Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:56 am

Your mechanic is not wrong, but before replacing the solenoid, do like I mentioned above.
Splice in a new harness connector.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01HBXZ3NM/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_G1nUAb4Z18JNJ

The fuel quantity solenoid is a huge pain to replace.
It’s held in place with three torx screws.
One of which is hidden behind a bracket.
You have to be patient and gentle. The screws are in there tight.
If you strip the head off the screw you are totally F- - -ED!

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Mon Mar 26, 2018 6:25 pm

nexus6 wrote:

So I had a Diesel mechanic look at it and he says that it is the High Pressure Fuel Pump Pressure Regulator. Id parts has them for $229, am I likely to get the part any cheaper?

These are also known as Fuel Quantity Solenoid. 5159962AA
https://oregonfuelinjection.com/shop/jeep-diesel/2005-2006-2-8-l-jeep-liberty-diesel/fuel-press-reg-liberty-for-hpp/
There are several different variations of this part that look identical and WILL FIT, but are markedly different inside, and don't work the same.
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=86502

If you remove the alternator and come at it from the top, access to the three torx screws is easiest. Removing the battery and the intake manifold side CAC hose gives even more access.

As Flash said, make certain that it is not a wiring or connector problem.

05 CRD stall immediately after starting

Who is online