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 Post subject: CA Smogging
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:43 pm 
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I have had my 2006 CRD since about 2010, so several of the biannual smog checks here in CA, never any problems. When I took it in there was no CEL problem. Last week I took it in and it failed, because a CEL came on after the smog equipment was attached. I took it home, looked at things with my OBD2 device and saw that the codes were U0002 and U0121 - high speed can bus performance and lost communication with ABS control module. drove it around for a while and the CEL cleared. I put my scan device on it and saw tyhe codes still there however, I cleared them. I drove it around a while longer. I also did an ECM reset by pulling the battery terminals and leaving them clamped together for about 10 min. I put it all back together, drove for a good 70 miles or so and then took it back to resmog. It failed again with the U0121 code. This time the tech let me look while he attached it - the dashboard looked like it was going crazy. CEL and other indicators blinking on and off.

Do you think I need a new ECM? ABS Control module?

I found thread here that seems related,

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=63009

but it's not clear any resolution was ever reached in that case.

this also seems relevant since I don't really know much about ABS
https://repairpal.com/estimator/jeep/li ... ement-cost


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 Post subject: Re: CA Smogging
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:18 pm 
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Is this smog station the same one as you've taken it to in the past when things went well ?
If not, I'd go back to the same place where it passed previously or go to a different smog station.

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 Post subject: Re: CA Smogging
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:22 pm 
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http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=87718

dskater411 wrote:
Just closing this thread out in case anyone searches in the future - issue resolved. I went to the smog ref and he was able to connect/pass my car without issue. He speculated that the previous smog shops unknowingly tried to run the car as a California vehicle and not a federal vehicle and that would have caused them issues. Not sure, just glad its over.

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 Post subject: Re: CA Smogging
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:16 am 
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did they happen to put it on rollers for the test? I thought I recall reading a post on here somewhere that doing so can cause the ECM to go nuts, throw codes during the test due to the ESP and/or ABS. if they did, they weren't supposed to.

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 Post subject: Re: CA Smogging
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:24 pm 
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Dennis MacGyver wrote:
Is this smog station the same one as you've taken it to in the past when things went well ?
If not, I'd go back to the same place where it passed previously or go to a different smog station.


No I lived in Santa Cruz at that time, now I live in San Diego. Very far away!

Dennis MacGyver wrote:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=87718

dskater411 wrote:
Just closing this thread out in case anyone searches in the future - issue resolved. I went to the smog ref and he was able to connect/pass my car without issue. He speculated that the previous smog shops unknowingly tried to run the car as a California vehicle and not a federal vehicle and that would have caused them issues. Not sure, just glad its over.


You are right, they did reach a resolution, my apologies. I haven't gone to a smog ref yet, I'm still at the try a second smog shop stage.

dskater411 wrote:
did they happen to put it on rollers for the test? I thought I recall reading a post on here somewhere that doing so can cause the ECM to go nuts, throw codes during the test due to the ESP and/or ABS. if they did, they weren't supposed to.


The first smog place had it on the rollers because that's where the equipment was, but they didn't roll it, just parked on it. I have seen reference to that failure mode too so I was watching that.

So I took it to a second place which is a brake repair place and a smog shop. I had cleared the codes so they had to put it on the smog machine to get it back. They then troubleshot the CAN bus to the ABS module and they decided that that module was bad. They want to replace it with a used part for $5xx.00 I thought that seemed expensive for a used part so I asked about a new part, haven't got that estimate yet. I think I will call around to find a place to do it. It seems like replacing that computer might be physically easy but not really a DIY job because you have to program it.


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 Post subject: Re: CA Smogging
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:27 am 
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If you go back & they put it back on the roller/dyno, be sure to turn off the ESP on top of the steering column. The ABS system doesn't like these rollers and will set off a whole bunch of error lamps in the instrument cluster. If they end up doing a simple opacity test, be sure to leave the engine running the whole time before the test, a hot engine produces a lower reading. Mine did a zero reading once and is always lower than a 5% reading.

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 Post subject: Re: CA Smogging
PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:04 pm 
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Thanks for all the advice. I don't doubt it needs a new ABS module. I just don't like the price they quoted me - $550 for a used part and $1200 for a new one. I think I can see the part in the top of the engine bay it doesn't look like a lot of labor to swap it. Repairpal says the job should cost up to $600 and nothing about used parts.


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 Post subject: Re: CA Smogging
PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:11 am 
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I would think that if the ABS module were bad your ABS light would be on and you would notice a difference in braking performance.

But still, what does the ABS module and its related codes have to do with emissions controls?
NOTHING!
So why should you fail a smog check because of a ABS problem?

The CRD has enough CAN bus communication issues on its own. Diagnostic scan/testing tools only make it worse.
I suspect that the problem is with whatever scan tool they are using.

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 Post subject: Re: CA Smogging
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:54 pm 
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The problem is the scan tool probing terminals on the OBDII connector that are used for non-standard (manufacturer-specific) purposes. Happens most frequently on cars using the ISO 9141 protocols, and generally speaking on cars prior to MY2007 when CANBUS diagnostics really got standardized. Plugging many generic scan tools into my 2003 XJR results in every single dash warning light illuminating, the car's display showing "FAILSAFE MODE, REDUCED PERFORMANCE" and "ABS/TCS failure" and the transmission going into limp home mode. I keep an isolation cable in the gloveblox - it has only the power, ground, and 9141 terminals passed through so that generic tools can't probe the wrong terminals and cause chaos. You can definitely imagine what happens when an OBDII tool shoots a random datastream into CAN. :) I don't know if the CRD uses 9141 or not - I've never looked - but if so isolation cables are readily available. :)


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 Post subject: Re: CA Smogging
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:28 pm 
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thesameguy wrote:
I don't know if the CRD uses 9141 or not
When I connect to mine with the Torque app, I'm pretty sure that's the protocol it selects.


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 Post subject: Re: CA Smogging
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:39 pm 
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I'm betting it does - the symptoms the OP described are just too perfect for it not to be. :)

The crazy thing - to me - is that a smog shop is using some wack tool in the first place, and is too ignorant to understand what's happening. There are a lot of bad smog shops, but this is a well-documented issue. They should understand early OBDII cars with "pseudo CAN" are subject to these types of issues.


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 Post subject: Re: CA Smogging
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:34 am 
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flash7210 wrote:
But still, what does the ABS module and its related codes have to do with emissions controls?
NOTHING!


Correct. However:

Quote:
So why should you fail a smog check because of a ABS problem?


In California, a visible CEL at a smog check is an instant fail. Doesn't matter what it's for; if the CEL's on, you don't pass. Period.

Regarding the ABS problem: if the smog tech mistook the ABS light for a CEL, that's an entirely other issue. But having lived through the joy (a term I use incredibly loosely) that is a large number of California smog inspections, I'll say this: I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to learn that a smog tech mistook an ABS light for a CEL.

Never drive into a California smog check with any questionable lights lit up on the dash. The person performing proctology on the tailpipe probably can't be bothered to tell the difference from 'parking lights on' to an actual CEL - and even if there is a CEL lit up, they're not going to see if it's emissions-related or not; that's just not part of their job.

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 Post subject: Re: CA Smogging
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:22 am 
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Sounds like a bunch of "DA's" doing the smog inspections if they are too stupid to know the difference between a ABS or DTC light? :roll:
Feel sorry for you folks that have to go through that nonsense! :cry:

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 Post subject: Re: CA Smogging
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:06 pm 
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A lot of smog shops are real bad. I could regale you with first and second hand stories but it's all pointless - they are DAs. The advice I give everyone is be sure the shop you're going to is a STAR Certified station. Those guys work hard for that certification and they work hard to protect it. They likely won't let you slide by with questionable things going on, but they also won't hold you up for nonsense. My cars include some heavily modified but totally legal '80s cars that have been rejected as out of compliance by regular shops. The STAR stations I use have never hassled me about anything I shouldn't be hassled about. They really don't want the CA BAR coming down on them and risking that certification - they're 100% by the book.


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 Post subject: Re: CA Smogging
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:08 pm 
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Tales from CA smog experiences over the years:

1985 Subaru Brat. Bone-stock. All emissions equipment intact and working. Smog shop failed it for a non-functional CEL, which those vehicles do not have. Went to another shop. They tested it as a Subaru GL (wagon, hatch or sedan) and failed it on visual inspection: I don't remember what they thought was missing, but it was something the Brat wasn't required to have compared to the other models because it was classed as a light truck. Went to a third shop; they got it right.

1977 Renault LeCar. Also bone-stock and with fully-functional emissions equipment. Failed on gas cap seal (yep, they test that as well). The cap worked fine, but didn't fit the adapter on their test equipment. Ended up replacing it with a radiator cap from Autozone. Went back for a re-test; passed without issue, put the real cap back on.

1978-ish Peugeot 504. Ditto condition of engine and emissions equipment. Passed on the tailpipe & visual inspection, then was failed because the underhood emissions label was missing after 30 years. That led to a giant fight to get the car re-registered.

Then there was the time I bought a car off of a charity lot that had originally been sold and registered new in California, but had spent the last decade off the road. Because it had been out of the DMV's computer, they said that the only option I had was to take it to one of the special inspection stations, pay a $4500 fee, and they'd issue a registration if it passed. If it didn't, they kept my $4500. I ended up receiving a 90-day export-or-destroy order on the car because there was no way in hell I was paying that. Ended up selling it on eBay to a person in Illinois.

I am so unbelievably thrilled that we no longer have to deal with CARB, AQMD, the BAR, or the California DMV.

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 Post subject: Re: CA Smogging
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:58 pm 
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casm wrote:
Then there was the time I bought a car off of a charity lot that had originally been sold and registered new in California, but had spent the last decade off the road. Because it had been out of the DMV's computer, they said that the only option I had was to take it to one of the special inspection stations, pay a $4500 fee, and they'd issue a registration if it passed. If it didn't, they kept my $4500. I ended up receiving a 90-day export-or-destroy order on the car because there was no way in hell I was paying that. Ended up selling it on eBay to a person in Illinois.


That's pretty good. I doubt anyone could beat that experience!

Quote:
I am so unbelievably thrilled that we no longer have to deal with CARB, AQMD, the BAR, or the California DMV.


Sounds like maybe you've been gone for a while - just given the age of cars in question - and I can assure you things are much better now than they were. Things were definitely a mess for a long time - I remember vividly the period from about '95 to '04 (when I started my used car buying habit ;) ) and how frustrating it was to get a car smogged - it felt like witchcraft. Since around '04 or '05 things have been good. Generally speaking the worst thing that can happen from a smog shop gone awry is you just go elsewhere, but I do stand by my statement that if you stick to STAR stations, you won't have issues in the first place. I have heard that in some of the denser areas like SF and LA there are still a lot of bar-none unqualified people running these shops but in all fairness, I've heard similar stories from friends who live in states were there are annual inspections - these types of problems aren't unique to California by a long shot.

Personally, I own a lot of cars - 12 right now I think - and it's just not a big deal. I keep my cars in good tune, and they pass smog without drama. My '85 SPG and '86 XR4Ti have heaps of modifications but legally pass smog easily. I register new cars at AAA, I pay my registration online. It's no drama for me. The only time I've been to the DMV in over a decade is last year to renew my driver's license (which has to be done in person every 14ish years) and in '10 to have them inspect out of state '67 Fleetwood prior to registration... which I've since found out AAA can do too. I wish I could throw an LS6 in my Fiero and not worry about it, but OTOH I'm not sure I'd rather have that than a rust-free '62 Ford and '67 Cadillac. It's a trade-off, but I willingly make it. :)


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 Post subject: Re: CA Smogging
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:01 am 
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thesameguy wrote:
Sounds like maybe you've been gone for a while - just given the age of cars in question - and I can assure you things are much better now than they were.


Nope, only a couple of years. There were gaps where I lived in other states for a time, but the last time we had to smog a car in CA was in early 2016.

Quote:
Things were definitely a mess for a long time - I remember vividly the period from about '95 to '04 (when I started my used car buying habit ;) ) and how frustrating it was to get a car smogged - it felt like witchcraft. Since around '04 or '05 things have been good. Generally speaking the worst thing that can happen from a smog shop gone awry is you just go elsewhere, but I do stand by my statement that if you stick to STAR stations, you won't have issues in the first place. I have heard that in some of the denser areas like SF and LA there are still a lot of bar-none unqualified people running these shops but in all fairness, I've heard similar stories from friends who live in states were there are annual inspections - these types of problems aren't unique to California by a long shot.


Yeah... We were in L.A. The statement about unqualified people explains part of it, but part of it's also greed. Some shops will fail you on a nonexistent technicality or problem that most people wouldn't know to look for in hopes that you'll come back for a re-test on your own dime. It's a racket.

There's also the problem of having a carburetted vehicle and taking it for smog - the stations just do not know what it is that they're looking at. I've literally had to point things out to them ("yes, this is the air pump, these are the one-way valves, that's the electrosolenoid...") because 25 years of having nothing but fuel-injected vehicles on the market has left them fairly oblivious to what those systems look like.

Quote:
Personally, I own a lot of cars - 12 right now I think - and it's just not a big deal. I keep my cars in good tune, and they pass smog without drama. My '85 SPG and '86 XR4Ti have heaps of modifications but legally pass smog easily. I register new cars at AAA, I pay my registration online. It's no drama for me. The only time I've been to the DMV in over a decade is last year to renew my driver's license (which has to be done in person every 14ish years) and in '10 to have them inspect out of state '67 Fleetwood prior to registration... which I've since found out AAA can do too. I wish I could throw an LS6 in my Fiero and not worry about it, but OTOH I'm not sure I'd rather have that than a rust-free '62 Ford and '67 Cadillac. It's a trade-off, but I willingly make it. :)


AAA has been my go-to on that for years, but there are some things that you are required to do at the DMV. It's an inescapable circle of hell at certain points.

Oh, I just remembered one other fun thing I had to go through at smog time: emissions limits being revised below what the car in question was originally rated for. Went through that with one of the Alfas. It was not enjoyable.

I'll give you credit for keeping an XR4Ti going, though. Those were good cars; shame they never really got the recognition they deserved in the marketplace. And I'm going to recommend a 3800SC for the Fiero; drove one with that engine in it once, and was very impressed.

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OME / Clevis 2.5" Lift
JBA Lifted A-Arms
IRO WJ Short Rear UCA/WWDiesel mount
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HDS Model 001 Thermostat (190°F)
Suncoast TC
Full Weeks Kit
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Samco / Sasquatch Intake Hoses
Carter in-tank pump
Provent 200
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 Post subject: Re: CA Smogging
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:22 am 
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casm wrote:
Yeah... We were in L.A. The statement about unqualified people explains part of it, but part of it's also greed. Some shops will fail you on a nonexistent technicality or problem that most people wouldn't know to look for in hopes that you'll come back for a re-test on your own dime. It's a racket.


One of my duties is to keep the MIL on the road, and a year and a half ago I took her 1994 E320 in for smog. She lives in Rancho Cucamonga - not exactly Los Angeles, but close. Drove up the way to a nearby smog shop and told them to keep it until they were done and call me - I wasn't going to hang around. Three hours later, having not heard from anyone, I went back by. Idiot at the counter said "We can't smog that car, there is no place to plug in our equipment." HWAT. After staring at the guy for a few minutes I dug into the problem - the 24v E320 has an intake pipe going over the coil pack cover, so you need to remove the pipe, remove the cover, connect the timing light, put the intake pipe back on, then do the thing. They were simply unwilling to do it. I seriously couldn't believe it. In the past I've taken some crap from NorCal smog places, but never "We'd rather not." I definitely sympathize. Google'd the nearest STAR station and the guys did it no questions asked and even charged less than the first place.

Quote:
There's also the problem of having a carburetted vehicle and taking it for smog - the stations just do not know what it is that they're looking at. I've literally had to point things out to them ("yes, this is the air pump, these are the one-way valves, that's the electrosolenoid...") because 25 years of having nothing but fuel-injected vehicles on the market has left them fairly oblivious to what those systems look like.


FACT. I am not that old - carbs were largely dead by the time I started driving and quite dead by the time I started wrenching, but most the guys at these shops are younger still and don't understand *any* of that. My '84 Trans Am was AWFUL under the hood with all the emissions equipment and CCC Q-jet. I swear the guy I was taking it to back then just *assumed* it was okay. :D

Quote:
Oh, I just remembered one other fun thing I had to go through at smog time: emissions limits being revised below what the car in question was originally rated for. Went through that with one of the Alfas. It was not enjoyable.


That's definitely a thing - I mean, most '80s cars weren't even "rated" for NOx emissions back then. But, the California standards are based on actual test data. Something like 80th or 90th percentile. If the test standard is X, that means 80% (or 90%, whatever it is) of *identical* cars have passed in the past with those numbers. Over time they've narrowed it down, but they're all realistic, attainable numbers. My first Alfa (an '84 GTV6) and a lot of my early Saabs were victims of that too, but in the end I was able to get them in tune. Aside from a Hyundai Santa Fe with leaky valve stem seals, I haven't had a car fail smog in 15+ years.

I argued with this with some numnuts on some other forum - dude insisted the test standards were random and impossible despite the published information on the BAR's website about the policies and histories. I actually dug up 18 years worth of smog tests on my XR4Ti... the car I've had the longest... and *demonstrated* the numbers had actually only changed twice in the past two decades just like the BAR said. I'd rather they not change, but it's ultimately not so bad. The numbers have been stable since '09 or '12 (I don't recall offhand)... I think there isn't enough test data on old cars anymore to make any more useful changes. All four of my '80s cars (two Saabs, a Fiero, and the XR4Ti) pass very easily... I am *real* thankful I don't have that Trans Am anymore, though. No more smog-required carb'd cars for me. It's too dicey, and all that emissions stuff is EXPENSIVE.

Quote:
I'll give you credit for keeping an XR4Ti going, though. Those were good cars; shame they never really got the recognition they deserved in the marketplace. And I'm going to recommend a 3800SC for the Fiero; drove one with that engine in it once, and was very impressed.


The XR4Ti is a MACHINE. 300,000 miles now pushing 22psi and just shy of 300hp. I kept waiting for it to break and it just wasn't, so I got the second one. :D As soon as the CRD is done it's getting a twin cam Saab motor, a big turbo, and a cage. I'm aiming for 250ish hp (barely more than stock) and 2400lbs. Should be a fun track car.

I'm waffling on the Fiero. I don't really like the 3800SC - potent and an easy install but it's a boat anchor, and GM never sold a 3800 with a manual transmission so it's a non-starter for me. Same *basic* problem as an LS swap. Installing a longitudinal motor transversely in the Fiero probably won't smog, and the only transverse LS motor is the LS4, which again, only an automatic. My two leading choices right now are the 3.9l V6 from a G6 GT with an honest 250hp or the 2.8t/3.0t V6 from a Saab/Cadillac which is a bit over 300.

*That's* where California smog gets me down, but OTOH I guess I don't have to worry about spending money on Fieros. :D


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