If you're going to pull the motor...

thesameguy · **Joined:** Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:24 pm **Posts:** 652

Been quite some time since I was last here. Some of you may recall my... crap, I don't even remember what year it is... CRD had a crazy oil leak that I could not solve. I spent a huge amount of time and money on it and got nowhere so I parked it and it hasn't moved in well over a year.

I gotta do something with it, and I'm not one to admit failure. Last time I pulled the transfer case and transmission to replace the RMS (and upfit the transmission!), this time I'm pulling the motor. I have the adapter to do a leakdown (or compression) test on the motor and will start there. I don't expect to find any problems - aside from the massive oil leak the truck ran great. But, I will check anyway. I don't remember offhand the mileage, but I know if it wasn't before, it's definitely due for a timing belt now. A head gasket won't hurt and there is surely no better time to do that than with the engine out and the timing belt off anyway.

My questions to you all:

1. Anything else I should do while the engine is out? My list is already bank-breaking (the studs & exhaust valves, etc...), but I don't want to create more work for myself down the road.
2. There are mountains of special tools for the 2.8l - which of them will I need for timing belt & head gasket whether through purchase or rental, etc.? I've been watching ebay for a little while for the injector puller tool and the cam holding tool and am hoping one of them comes up before I tackle this in March or April.

Anything else anyone can think of is much appreciated!

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:10 am

I had no problems with the injectors coming out, and required no special tool. Just PBBlaster, and a little patience and determination. Get new injector seals and o-rings, and make sure the old ones are out before re-assembly.

Quality timing pins of some sort will be a definite yes.
Some make their own,
some rent,
some buy.
If your head is coming completely off, and all new timing kit going in, I wouldn't worry about pulley locking tools, like the Miller. Just use a good method of counter holding the cam pulleys when you torque them. Most timing sprocket counter holding tools have too short of pulley engaging pins. Make sure to get ones that are long enough.

I seem to recall you leak issue,and I had a similar issue, but mine turned to be an oil slinging issue from the front differential pinion leaking. I thought you were chasing a possible rear main seal leak, or oil cooler leak?

If your transmission issues have not fixed the front pump issues or Torque Converter issues, now would be the time.

WolverineFW · **Posted:** Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:21 pm

Replace your crankshaft and camshaft sensors while it is out of the vehicle.

Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk

thesameguy · **Joined:** Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:24 pm **Posts:** 652

GordnadoCRD wrote:

I had no problems with the injectors coming out, and required no special tool. Just PBBlaster, and a little patience and determination. [snip] Most timing sprocket counter holding tools have too short of pulley engaging pins. Make sure to get ones that are long enough.

Thanks much for that!

Quote:

I seem to recall you leak issue,and I had a similar issue, but mine turned to be an oil slinging issue from the front differential pinion leaking. I thought you were chasing a possible rear main seal leak, or oil cooler leak?

At the time, I was pretty convinced it was the RMS as the leak primarily emerged through the joint between engine and bell housing, like oil was accumulating in there. I replaced the RMS, but that had zero effect on my leak. It really crystalized for me at that point the leak wasn't and never was the RMS... the oil flow is *prodigious*, not a little drip from the sump. It was pretty clear at that time the source was something pressurized, but I couldn't observe it.

I just replied to another thread here where someone identified a plug on the back of their head that is leaking, and I suspect my source is similar... one of those plugs at the ends of the oil galleys. I'm just not sure which one...

Since the truck has 180k on it and no service history (other than my pretty darned thorough pass in '16) I don't think there's any harm in pulling the motor, re-plugging everything back there, and doing a head gasket (studs, really) and timing belt at the same time. I'm not messing around.

I haven't driven the thing more than 20' in about a year, but I do have a mountain of dye in the sump right now, and I will put a mile or two on it prior to starting work - hopefully the dye leads me to the specific source.

Quote:

If your transmission issues have not fixed the front pump issues or Torque Converter issues, now would be the time.

Fortunately, no transmission issues at all on this rig. When I did the RMS, I did replace the TC and pump on the transmission since it was out already. I feel like crap than an oil leak has resulted in transmission work, a head gasket, and a timing belt, but whatever. I'm not giving up, not at this point.

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:37 am

Yeah that's got to sting a little, having gone so far in, and not gotten any improvement. Not wishing any ill your way, but I hope you find what you're looking for. Either an oil gallery or a leaking cam end plug.. Something that can be fixed "along the way".
At least you'll have basically a brand new mill, and hope that the electrical gremlins stay away.

thesameguy · **Joined:** Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:24 pm **Posts:** 652

It hurt a lot in November of 2016, but time heals all wounds.

I've nearly sold it a half dozen times in the last year, but never gone through with it. I want it to work out. I'm hoping the dye points me to the source of the leak... my worst fear is pulling the engine out and finding it spotless back there leaving me with nothing to work with.

Assuming it all works out, I'll have an 18 year old diesel Jeep with 180k on it and just bide my time waiting for the fuel pump to fail.

rankom · **Posted:** Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:19 pm

before you pull engine out, can you get it running and take some pictures ,,, so we can see it , also start with removing valve cover , check that gasket , remove turbo inspect it ,, remove cylinder head , get that tested , check cylinder liners , pistons etc , are the crosshedges visible ? if yes we go further ,,, if not then it is not worth pulling engine out ,

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:27 am

rankom wrote:

before you pull engine out, can you get it running and take some pictures ,,, so we can see it , also start with removing valve cover , check that gasket , remove turbo inspect it ,, remove cylinder head , get that tested , check cylinder liners , pistons etc , are the crosshedges visible ? if yes we go further ,,, if not then it is not worth pulling engine out ,

Hi Rankom
He has already done that.
Here is is old post with his investigations, videos, etc. http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=85755&p=903049#p903049
Since this he pulled the trans, replaced the RMS and more.. but no change..? Do I have that right, thesameguy?

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:24 pm

I would think that running the engine with the dye in the oil and using a UV light would be the key in this case to pinpointing the exact location of the leak before taking anything apart. :roll:

At least then, you would know with what you are up against and a direction to proceed.

Crash227 · **Posted:** Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:44 pm

I got lucky with the timing of this post because I am considering pulling my motor to go thru it and rebuild it as needed. Thanks for all the good advice.

I have a blown head gasket and I’m assessing the damage and cost of repairs.
I knew I should have replaced the head gasket and studs when I did the timing belt but I did not. Now I am putting together the Long Expensive List of parts I will need, if the block is not cracked.

My daughter was driving it when the head gasket blew and the temp gauge never read hot. Somehow she missed the pitiful LO COOL flashing on the digital odometer. She parked it and called me to come check it out. First I checked the oil which was full and no evidence of coolant. Then I checked the coolant, which was empty! I added coolant and it started right up. I ran it for about 15 seconds and heard no knocks but a loud exhaust gas noise from the blown head gasket. I had it brought to my home on a flatbed. When I checked the oil again there was coolant in it. Knowing that coolant is very bad inside an engine, I drained the oil right away.

I’ve had this CRD for 12 years now in Michigan and it is nearly rust free on Paint and underbody. I know the factory that built this vehicle and the corrosion resistance of this body is World Class! When Daimler owned Jeep they ridiculed the Americans for building such an expensive Paint Shop but I see the corrosion resistant quality it produces in my Liberty CRD!

I hope that I can rebuild my CRD better than original and drive it another 200k Miles!

joe_ · **Posted:** Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:07 pm

thesameguy wrote:

I'm hoping the dye points me to the source of the leak... my worst fear is pulling the engine out and finding it spotless back there leaving me with nothing to work with.

Can you peek behind the head with one of those little inspection mirrors? Or you can get a little USB boroscope on eBay for like $15; those are useful for seeing in tight places.

rankom · **Posted:** Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:14 pm

hmmm , thank you GORD crd , i did not realize that our friend was chasing oil leak for long time and RMS was not the problem , so that is still a mystery , so what i was trying to say , this engines are very expensive to do overhaul, so in my mind i think taking top end a part and inspecting it be easier to determine , if is worth going deeper in this engine . so like WW suggested , running it fist with dye in oil and see what is leaking ? BUT he did this already with no luck , so what to now , well i guess it is just decision at this time ,

CGman · **Posted:** Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:13 am

Getting ready to pull an engine, any thoughts on buying the nice IDparts tool kit vs cheaper kits on Amazon, etc. I love quality, but my parts budget could use the extra $100...

Big Wrench · **Joined:** Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:31 pm **Posts:** 15

This tool set is what I used for pinning the engine to do the timing belt, then there is a good video on youtube about the procedure. FYI, the engine is pinned at 90* after TDC

https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Diesel-Eng ... SwZapZwdw5

flash7210 · **Posted:** Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:19 am

Big Wrench wrote:

This tool set is what I used for pinning the engine to do the timing belt, then there is a good video on youtube about the procedure. FYI, the engine is pinned at 90* after TDC

https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Diesel-Eng ... SwZapZwdw5

I used that eBay kit.
The tensioner tool broke and the cam pins had a loose sloppy fit.
Was more trouble than it was worth and threw it away when I got my engine back together.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:30 pm

Ordered the Sealey Model No: VSE5056 tool set out of England a few years back; it's not SnapOn, but it does what's needed.
Kit designed for 2.5 and 2.8 CRD belt drive engines,
fitted with or without balance shafts.

http://www.workshopping.co.uk/files/VSE5056.pdf

thesameguy · **Joined:** Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:24 pm **Posts:** 652

GordnadoCRD wrote:

rankom wrote:

before you pull engine out, can you get it running and take some pictures ,,, so we can see it , also start with removing valve cover , check that gasket , remove turbo inspect it ,, remove cylinder head , get that tested , check cylinder liners , pistons etc , are the crosshedges visible ? if yes we go further ,,, if not then it is not worth pulling engine out ,

Hi Rankom
He has already done that.
Here is is old post with his investigations, videos, etc. http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=85755&p=903049#p903049
Since this he pulled the trans, replaced the RMS and more.. but no change..? Do I have that right, thesameguy?

Yep, that is exactly correct. I'm definitely not going to bother pulling the head off and then find out I still need to pull the block. I would much rather just yank the engine and work on it on a stand rather than spend extra time hunched over an engine bay. Since the timing belt needs to be done, and it's fair to also pre-emptively replace the head gasket and bolts, it's easier just to pull the whole thing, and R&R outside. Well, maybe not actually easier, but less painful.

As I mentioned, I will do a leakdown test prior to taking things apart - with a clean leakdown and an engine that otherwise runs *great* (just really leaky...) I'd have zero reason to suspect or anticipate any bottom end problems.

WWDiesel wrote:

I would think that running the engine with the dye in the oil and using a UV light would be the key in this case to pinpointing the exact location of the leak before taking anything apart. :roll:

At least then, you would know with what you are up against and a direction to proceed.

As I mentioned there is already dye in the oil, and that yielded nothing. There is no visible evidence of the leak from the top, only what I see from the bottom. I have tried inspection mirrors and UV lights and there simply is not adequate room behind the head to see anything. I could not figure out a reliable way to use a UV light in combination with a boroscope.

I removed a fair amount out of the engine compartment in the hopes of a better view, but I've been unsuccessful. There simply is not much clearance between the back of the engine and the firewall. I'm hoping that with the engine out, and clear access to the back of the motor I will be able to see those dye traces.

*If* it's the same plug as referenced in this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=87677

the head's going to have to come off anyway for repair. My intention is to literally replace every plug and fitting on the back of the motor pre-emptively. With a new RMS, HG, VCG, cam seals, and a pile of plugs there should be nothing else to leak, and that represents both relatively little cost *and* fairly reasonable "preventative maintenance."

I do suspect just removing the head would be sufficient - I'm anticipating the leak is coming from up high and not down low, but I simply do not want to risk some fitting or plug on the back of the block being the culprit. Unless someone can say conclusively there is nothing other than the RMS on the block that could be a source of leaks, I'll pull the whole motor.

That Sealey kit looks spot on - thanks!

joe_ · **Posted:** Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:21 pm

thesameguy wrote:

Unless someone can say conclusively there is nothing other than the RMS on the block that could be a source of leaks, I'll pull the whole motor.

In your previous thread, WWDiesel posted a pretty nice parts diagram here:
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=85755&start=20#p902950
which seems to show two different plugs. Number 12 is at the back of the head, at the end of the oil gallery which supplies the exhaust valve lifters/lash adjusters. I'm fairly confident the same thing exists on the intake side of the head as well. There's also number 11, which appears to be at the end of the block's main oil gallery. So if number 12 is leaking, you should be able to replace it by pulling the head. But if number 11 is leaking, I'm pretty sure you're gonna have to pull the engine to get to that. Soo yeah ... if you're not sure which plug, I'd pull the whole engine out of there.

thesameguy · **Joined:** Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:24 pm **Posts:** 652

Yeah, that was my conclusion as well. I *think* if it was #12 I would have been able to spot it - or at least feel it - with all the looking I've done, like the poster in the thread I linked a bit ago was able to. Since I can't see it and the back of the head feels clean to me (fingers always come back clean...), and a substantial part of the oil leak appears to be coming from inside the bell housing I'm inclined to believe it's #11, and I need access to the back of the block. Maybe worth noting is that everything about the leak initially made me think RMS, and that just further reinforces my opinion the problem is inside the bell housing.

At the end of the day I guess I don't know, and I don't want to find out the hard way.

So if I yank the whole thing and replace both #12s, #11, the cam seals, the VCG and the HG, then there's nothing left to leak.

I'm *really* hoping that if I pull the whole thing out together the dye will point me right to the problem. I'm worried that pulling it out a piece at a time could make that difficult or impossible - I want to disturb as little as possible.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:31 am

Just a thought! :idea:

Have you considered just pulling the transmission and flex plate to gain access the rear of the block inside the bell housing area if you quite certain that is where the oil leak is coming from?
Probably less work than pulling the whole engine. :juggle:

If you're going to pull the motor...

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