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 Post subject: Re: Advice Needed - Maximum Travel Trailer Weight
PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:40 am 
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I towed a 3200lb travel trailer for two summers without any real problems. That included multiple trips over Snoqualmie and Blewett Passes and in/out of the Columbia Gorge. I switch to a pickup because i wanted to carry recumbent trikes and kayaks, and there just wasnt enough room for all gear on the CRD. It has 201,000 miles on it now and doesn't seem to have sufferec from all that towing. The only real concern i ever had was in the high winds in the gorge - I wish it had more wheelbase at those times.

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 Post subject: Re: Advice Needed - Maximum Travel Trailer Weight
PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:47 am 
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I just towed a 6x12 u-haul trailer listed as 1920 lbs empty that had two axels and the automatic tongue braking system even though i have brake controller for my personal trailers. We packed at least 1500 lbs in it moving my daughter from Knoxville tn to atlanta Saturday so thats at least 3500 lbs and probably 4000 would be closer. I had no problem with pulling power even up and down mountains but tongue weight seems fairly critical and this trailer only about 6 and !/2 feet tall . I also noticed essentially no difference braking with this trailer or the ones i have electric brakes on. What i didn't like was the tendency of the combination being affected more than i am used to when passing tractor trailer rigs etc.

I tow ski boats and occasionally an 18 foot car hauler with about 4000 lbs that i haven't noticed this very much with. So, I assume its the surface area of solid sides etc that made the difference. I also did not feel comfortable going over 65 MPH though i did drive 75 mph part of the time

My advice would be to pull one at least unloaded and with similar weight as you will have at least a few miles before committing to buying. I don't think the weight would be as much of a problem as stability and aerodynamics even strong crosswinds may cause some instability . You could compensate for cooling issues and tranny etc but not so much this factors. Also agree with tranny cooler. The torque converter however may not be as much problem as you might think since you can take overdrive off and the resulting higher rpm is more likely to keep converter happy. Personally though I would upgrade the converter regardless with those demands.

BTW I got about 23 MPG over about 225 miles pulling the trailer at mostly 65mph. Lowest I have ever gotten was pulling about 3000 lb 18 foot boat with aluminum duck blind on it against a 45 mph headwind at about 60 mph with overdrive off and it was 18.5 mpg or so

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06 Bla Lim, GDE Eco, Destination AT 245/75/17, 151K, H TC
06 D Khaki Lim 126K wkII Eur TC
05 D khaki Lim 145k refurbishing
All CRDS: Fumoto, Lift , Fan Shroud mod, fuel head Gen II, SAMCOS,self TB, 2 Mic filt, Hayden


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 Post subject: Re: Advice Needed - Maximum Travel Trailer Weight
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 11:06 am 
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We bought the lightest, lowest, narrowest trailer that still met our needs.
We will pick it up in a few weeks.

Image

The Jeep is ready to go too with brake controller and transmission temperature gauge.

Image

I bought an 8000 lb Fastway e2 equalizer hitch that has built in sway control.

Hopefully I won't have to upgrade to a bigger tow vehicle.


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 Post subject: Re: Advice Needed - Maximum Travel Trailer Weight
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 11:47 am 
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Keep us posted as to how everything works out towing.

Have you added any additional transmission cooling, i.e. coolers etc...?
Been toying with the idea of adding one of the Derale heat sink coolers underneath on the frame rail since there is no more room in front of the AC condenser. :idea: :idea:
Locating it underneath will also help by not adding more heat to the stack which is already overloaded....



Anyone used one of these coolers on their JK?
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 Post subject: Re: Advice Needed - Maximum Travel Trailer Weight
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 12:02 pm 
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Going to watch temperatures first.
If there looks to be a need I will mount an extra cooler at the front in series with the cooler/condenser radiator.


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 Post subject: Re: Advice Needed - Maximum Travel Trailer Weight
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 2:50 pm 
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Nice find

I am kind of suprised at the single axle on a trailer that size.

I am confident you will find the Jeep has adequate power to tow that and with the WDH you should be fine.

Don't forget mirror extensions.
Squeeto wrote:
We bought the lightest, lowest, narrowest trailer that still met our needs.
We will pick it up in a few weeks.

Image

The Jeep is ready to go too with brake controller and transmission temperature gauge.

Image

I bought an 8000 lb Fastway e2 equalizer hitch that has built in sway control.

Hopefully I won't have to upgrade to a bigger tow vehicle.


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 Post subject: Re: Advice Needed - Maximum Travel Trailer Weight
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:11 pm 
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WolverineFW wrote:
Don't forget mirror extensions.

Good point. I bought these:
https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B001AJH1HK/ref ... 00_TE_dp_1
They are exactly like K-Source #KS3891.

They each have four hooks and two locking ratcheting straps.
They really hold on tight without damaging your Jeep mirrors.
I recommend these.


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 Post subject: Re: Advice Needed - Maximum Travel Trailer Weight
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:24 pm 
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Those are pretty identical to the ones I bought.
Squeeto wrote:
WolverineFW wrote:
Don't forget mirror extensions.

Good point. I bought these:
https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B001AJH1HK/ref ... 00_TE_dp_1
They are exactly like K-Source #KS3891.

They each have four hooks and two locking ratcheting straps.
They really hold on tight without damaging your Jeep mirrors.
I recommend these.


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Goodyear Wrangler Duratrac LT225/75R16


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 Post subject: Re: Advice Needed - Maximum Travel Trailer Weight
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:19 pm 
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Location: Victoria, Canada
Image
Conditions:
Unloaded trailer weight 3418 lbs
Added load weight ~400 lbs? (carried 1/3 tank fresh water)
Air temperature 26-30° Celsius ( 79-86°F)
Locations Golden Ears Provincial Park (Vancouver mainland area) and Englishman River Falls (Vancouver Island)
Tune- stock
Transmission- stock
Torque converter- stock
F37 recall- yes
Weight distribution hitch with sway control

Transmission temperatures
Typically on highways and traffic able to maintain a minimum 88-90kph (55-56mph), 90-110°C (194-230°F)
(see overdrive)
Mainland 70kph (43mph) speed limit 100-115°C (212-239°F)
Long hills especially Vancouver Island Malahat 125°C (257°F) !!

Recommendation
Transmission temperatures above 88°C (190°F) are too high.
If you want to haul a trailer like this with your Liberty, get a transmission cooler. Really cheap insurance.

I met a man at Englishman River Falls who just had his 1999 Dodge Ram diesel transmission blow up while camping.
Tow- $600
Truck rental- $1200
Rebuild- $7200
ATF had been replaced on schedule and was still a red color. The shop had put Dextron in it.
He is capable of hauling 17000lbs and his loaded trailer was about 5000lbs.

Overdrive
With my trip throughout the mainland, I didn't turn off overdrive. On the flats or with rolling hills, the Liberty can maintain 89kph (55mph) nicely. The engine temperature never exceeded normal and the transmission would sit at about 80-85°C (176-185°F).
(see Torque lock)
I played with turning off overdrive through hilly parts of the Malahat and highway 19 on the island but transmission temperatures exceeded my comfort levels. I was never sure at what road speed the torque converter would lockup. It almost seems like it just wouldn't. Those of you with experience, please comment.

Torque lock
This is the nicest thing you can do for your transmission.
For most highway driving if you can maintain 89kph (55mph) at about 1700rpm with overdrive on, the Liberty engine and transmission temperatures will be fine.
On hills or on highways where speed limit or traffic keeps you under this speed/rpm, driving without overdrive is probably what is recommended but I couldn't find a speed that wouldn't overheat the transmission. Also, lower speeds may cause damage due to flying beer cans. Again, those of you with experience, please comment.

Tail wagging the dog
I feel the trailer in the seat. Where my 2000lb trailer felt easy to pull and never controlling, the larger sail behind me now does take charge a little with bumps and ruts. A bobtail semi blasting by gave me quite a pull too.
Get a weight distribution hitch with sway control.

Engine temperature
I have never seen my engine temperature exceed normal (until now). I know that the temperature can exceed this for short times without any issue. But on the Malahat coming home, I actually reached fuel cutoff temperature just as I reached the summit. I lost power only for a few seconds and temperature was back to normal within a minute after that.
I would assume that a cooler for the transmission might also help the attached engine.

Change my mind
The Jeep has been a great commuter and hauler with my 2000lb trailer. I like the short wheel base and economy. But the ability to haul this kind of load is adequate only. I would really like to have about 30% more power.
So my options are adding a transmission cooler, better torque converter, engine and transmission tune or just buying a stronger vehicle.

The fellow who had the $9000 transmission fix really liked my rig. He said that his friend had one and pulled a similar trailer. He also recommended the Ford 150 EcoBoost if I wanted more power.

My wife wants to do a trip well into the Rockies. I don't think that the Jeep even with the upgrades would be happy with the long Coquihalla highway. I am not sure that I would want to put my Jeep through it as well.

99% of the time all that we need is the Liberty. We are at a stage where we don't want two vehicles to insure and maintain.


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 Post subject: Advice Needed - Maximum Travel Trailer Weight
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:49 am 
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Squeeto wrote:
Image
Conditions:
Unloaded trailer weight 3418 lbs
Added load weight ~400 lbs? (carried 1/3 tank fresh water)
Air temperature 26-30° Celsius ( 79-86°F)
Locations Golden Ears Provincial Park (Vancouver mainland area) and Englishman River Falls (Vancouver Island)
Tune- stock
Transmission- stock
Torque converter- stock
F37 recall- yes
Weight distribution hitch with sway control

Transmission temperatures
Typically on highways and traffic able to maintain a minimum 88-90kph (55-56mph), 90-110°C (194-230°F)
(see overdrive)
Mainland 70kph (43mph) speed limit 100-115°C (212-239°F)
Long hills especially Vancouver Island Malahat 125°C (257°F) !!

Recommendation
Transmission temperatures above 88°C (190°F) are too high.
If you want to haul a trailer like this with your Liberty, get a transmission cooler. Really cheap insurance.

I met a man at Englishman River Falls who just had his 1999 Dodge Ram diesel transmission blow up while camping.
Tow- $600
Truck rental- $1200
Rebuild- $7200
ATF had been replaced on schedule and was still a red color. The shop had put Dextron in it.
He is capable of hauling 17000lbs and his loaded trailer was about 5000lbs.

Overdrive
With my trip throughout the mainland, I didn't turn off overdrive. On the flats or with rolling hills, the Liberty can maintain 89kph (55mph) nicely. The engine temperature never exceeded normal and the transmission would sit at about 80-85°C (176-185°F).
(see Torque lock)
I played with turning off overdrive through hilly parts of the Malahat and highway 19 on the island but transmission temperatures exceeded my comfort levels. I was never sure at what road speed the torque converter would lockup. It almost seems like it just wouldn't. Those of you with experience, please comment.

Torque lock
This is the nicest thing you can do for your transmission.
For most highway driving if you can maintain 89kph (55mph) at about 1700rpm with overdrive on, the Liberty engine and transmission temperatures will be fine.
On hills or on highways where speed limit or traffic keeps you under this speed/rpm, driving without overdrive is probably what is recommended but I couldn't find a speed that wouldn't overheat the transmission. Also, lower speeds may cause damage due to flying beer cans. Again, those of you with experience, please comment.

Tail wagging the dog
I feel the trailer in the seat. Where my 2000lb trailer felt easy to pull and never controlling, the larger sail behind me now does take charge a little with bumps and ruts. A bobtail semi blasting by gave me quite a pull too.
Get a weight distribution hitch with sway control.

Engine temperature
I have never seen my engine temperature exceed normal (until now). I know that the temperature can exceed this for short times without any issue. But on the Malahat coming home, I actually reached fuel cutoff temperature just as I reached the summit. I lost power only for a few seconds and temperature was back to normal within a minute after that.
I would assume that a cooler for the transmission might also help the attached engine.

Change my mind
The Jeep has been a great commuter and hauler with my 2000lb trailer. I like the short wheel base and economy. But the ability to haul this kind of load is adequate only. I would really like to have about 30% more power.
So my options are adding a transmission cooler, better torque converter, engine and transmission tune or just buying a stronger vehicle.

The fellow who had the $9000 transmission fix really liked my rig. He said that his friend had one and pulled a similar trailer. He also recommended the Ford 150 EcoBoost if I wanted more power.

My wife wants to do a trip well into the Rockies. I don't think that the Jeep even with the upgrades would be happy with the long Coquihalla highway. I am not sure that I would want to put my Jeep through it as well.

99% of the time all that we need is the Liberty. We are at a stage where we don't want two vehicles to insure and maintain.


If you are pulling near your trailers GVWR the Jeep will struggle, especially in the Rockies. It’s fine on the flats and minor climbs but when you get into the steep, long climbs this thing will be pedal to the metal just trying to keep 45 mph. Listening to this thing spin at 3500-4000 rpm for 15-20 minutes at a time won’t be fun. I’ve done it.

I also have experienced the tail wagging the dog a little, but only cause I’ve towed with my 6200 lb f150 normally. I was actually a bit surprised how the Jeep Handled my trailer(4200 lb dry, 5500 lb gvwr, 24’ tip to bumper). I use an 1000/10000 lb Equal-I-zer hitch with 4 point sway control and it kept the trailer pretty steady, even around trucks on the freeway. It could have used a little more tension in the WDH to help reload the front axle more, but overall it went well.

As far as temps go, 190F doesn’t seem too bad. My f150 won’t even open the valve to send the fluid to the trans cooler until 195F and sits in the 205F range towing. 257 is extreme. I suspect GDE’s tow tune may help by locking the converter more. I have their eco tune and would not recommend it for towing due to the early shift points.

Engine temps are something I have chased being here in Utah around some big climbs. A good mechanical fan is required and I have personally found that the fixed flex fan mod is the best there is. I pulled my trailer on a 7% grade with my Jeep and my engine temps didn’t climb over 97C with a 95C HDS Tstat.

The ecoboost is a monster of a half ton motor. My 2014 pulls my 5500 lb trailer like it’s not there. 70 mph on 7% grades is nothing for it and does it at just 3000 rpm in 4th gear, but it will drink fuel. that’s what happens when nothing slows you down and you are dragging a sail through the air at 70 mph.

If you are only towing that trailer then I would highly recommend the 2.7 ecoboost as it’s still a very torquey motor and has the HP you need but will get significantly better mpg than any other v8/premium half ton motor as a daily driver. There is no comparison to the Jeep. Both will tow far more comfortably, quietly and more casually.

There is always the ecodiesel too, which will handle that trailer but does suffer from overheating issues as well. Not sure if that trailer would cause issues or not.

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 Post subject: Re: Max Travel Trailer Weight - Is it time for a new truck?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:31 am 
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We test drove the 2018 F-150 2.7L EcoBoost, 2018 Jeep GC 6 cylinder gasser and a 2015 VW Touareg TDI.

The Ford is nice but it is big and the wife is not.
Maybe consider a used 3.0 diesel GC instead of gasser.
The VW is nice.

I still wonder how much more I really need. Would a Euro TC, fresh pump, Transgo shift kit and hot tune be enough?

What is the typical life expectancy of the clutch plates/seals/etc of our 545RFE? I don't remember too many issues reported here yet.


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 Post subject: Re: Max Travel Trailer Weight - Is it time for a new truck?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:04 am 
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Squeeto wrote:
We test drove the 2018 F-150 2.7L EcoBoost, 2018 Jeep GC 6 cylinder gasser and a 2015 VW Touareg TDI.

The Ford is nice but it is big and the wife is not.
Maybe consider a used 3.0 diesel GC instead of gasser.
The VW is nice.

I still wonder how much more I really need. Would a Euro TC, fresh pump, Transgo shift kit and hot tune be enough?

What is the typical life expectancy of the clutch plates/seals/etc of our 545RFE? I don't remember too many issues reported here yet.


Add a sonax valve upgrade to the front pump, and that GM fan mod that WW figured out (or fixed fan) and you'll be fine. Why buy another vehicle for 1% ? I tow 5000+ lbs in the Rockies with an electric fan, a lift and big tires. I'm not winning any races, but I'm not living where Masshole is, as he drives long grades all of the time, but neither are you.
Oh, add new rockers and arp head studs to the list also if you haven't already

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 Post subject: Re: Max Travel Trailer Weight - Is it time for a new truck?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:08 am 
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If you do decide to upgrade, I've been seeing the GC 3.0's for not much over $10k now, so that's not much cost difference and a better engine. Found a nice one for $11k with only 131k miles. FWIW

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 Post subject: Re: Max Travel Trailer Weight - Is it time for a new truck?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:05 am 
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One of the big mistakes while hauling a trailer is to drive and try to keep up same speeds than without it. Especially when going up or down at hills. When climbing, one has to keep engine running rather high rpms with relatively low gear to let engine and tranny cool. That's bit a problelm with KJ A/T, as it cannot be locked to 3rd or 4th gear. Going down use engine braking as much as possible by starting with lower gear, rpms low, let the speed go up until rpms are close to red. Then drop the speed with brakes until rpms are low again and repeat. That way brakes have time to cool while they are not applied and don't burn out.

I spent twelve years hauling heavy ones, 38-60 metric tons, up and down many mountains and never burnt any brakes, trannies or brakes using these methods. They work as well with lighter ones. Steeper the hill, lower the gear, up and down. Just relax and forget "that :furious: just overtook me with his wimpy :JEEPIN: "-attitude and concentrate in your own drive. That way you enjoy it much more.

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 Post subject: Re: Max Travel Trailer Weight - Is it time for a new truck?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:26 am 
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Mountainman wrote:
Add a sonax valve upgrade to the front pump

This one- TC Limit Valve Kit 44912-03K ?
Or one of the others?


Grotsoldaat wrote:
That's bit a problelm with KJ A/T, as it cannot be locked to 3rd or 4th gear.

I couldn't get it to lock in fourth but didn't realize this is by design.


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 Post subject: Re: Max Travel Trailer Weight - Is it time for a new truck?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:36 am 
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I feel the 545 RFE is a decent transmission I would estimate with regular ATF4 fluid and filter changes it should average about 250,000 miles. I have several with about 200,000 miles. I would consider the transmission tune from GDE. The upgrades will give you more power and reliability but they won't change the other factors such as the drivability with crosswinds etc. Personally , I love the little jeeps, but they are not the best for this type of towing even with all the improvements. If I was taking a few trips a year I would put up with the constraints plus you would have a vehicle worth more and get better mileage etc when not towing. If I were wanting to take off and stay on the road weeks or months at a time especially including mountainous areas I would probably tow with a different vehicle. Of course if you were going to do that you could get a much bigger and heavier trailer.

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05 Blu Lim, Dayton, GDE HT, 255/75/18 , 210K , H TC
06 Bla Lim, GDE Eco, Destination AT 245/75/17, 151K, H TC
06 D Khaki Lim 126K wkII Eur TC
05 D khaki Lim 145k refurbishing
All CRDS: Fumoto, Lift , Fan Shroud mod, fuel head Gen II, SAMCOS,self TB, 2 Mic filt, Hayden


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 Post subject: Re: Max Travel Trailer Weight - Is it time for a new truck?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:32 am 
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TKB4 wrote:
If I were wanting to take off and stay on the road weeks or months at a time especially including mountainous areas I would probably tow with a different vehicle. Of course if you were going to do that you could get a much bigger and heavier trailer.


I would love to take off a couple winter months to visit Arizona weather. :)
Actually this trailer size is pretty livable, especially with the slide out. My wife and I love having just enough to fit our needs.

When we bought it, we had to go to the mainland and of course Ikea. I followed the over height parking sign to around back and found out that there is no exit. I had to use the stalls to do the 180 and if there hadn't been a gap lined up on both sides, I would be having Swedish meatballs for breakfast. In this case, a 22' trailer was enough.


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 Post subject: Re: Max Travel Trailer Weight - Is it time for a new truck?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:56 am 
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Squeeto wrote:
Mountainman wrote:
Add a sonax valve upgrade to the front pump

This one- TC Limit Valve Kit 44912-03K ?
Or one of the others?


Grotsoldaat wrote:
That's bit a problelm with KJ A/T, as it cannot be locked to 3rd or 4th gear.

I couldn't get it to lock in fourth but didn't realize this is by design.


Looks like that kit is available for under $50, but the reaming tool kit that is required to install it is over $350 here:
https://www.ebay.com/p/Sonnax-45rfe-545 ... /739211587

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 Post subject: Re: Max Travel Trailer Weight - Is it time for a new truck?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:02 pm 
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Squeeto wrote:
Mountainman wrote:
Add a sonax valve upgrade to the front pump

This one- TC Limit Valve Kit 44912-03K ?
Or one of the others?


Grotsoldaat wrote:
That's bit a problelm with KJ A/T, as it cannot be locked to 3rd or 4th gear.

I couldn't get it to lock in fourth but didn't realize this is by design.

If you are considering the sonnax pump upgrade, might be better to just replace the whole pump. Contact cascadetransmissionparts.com

And no, the 545rfe cannot be locked in 4th. But it can be locked in 3rd with OD-off.

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 Post subject: Re: Max Travel Trailer Weight - Is it time for a new truck?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:15 am 
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flash7210 wrote:
And no, the 545rfe cannot be locked in 4th. But it can be locked in 3rd with OD-off.


How do you do that? OD goes on in 4th & 5th and can of course be deactivated by knob. According to factory service manual, there are two different 2nd gear ratios, which are chosen by the transmission, but no mention how to lock it in 3rd:

"The three planetary gear sets also make available a unique alternate second gear ratio. The primary 2nd gear ratio fits between 1st and 3rd gears for normal through-gear accelerations. The alternate second gear ratio (2prime) allows smoother 4-2 kickdowns at high speeds to provide 2nd gear passing performance over a wider highway cruising range. An additional overdrive ratio (0.67:1) is also provided for greater fuel economy and less NVH at highway speeds."

TCM section of the manual tells how to teach the tranny correct shifts after repairs but no mention about 3rd gear lock there either.

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