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 Post subject: Not reaching normal operating temp
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:20 am 
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LOST Newbie

Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:38 pm
Posts: 15
Location: Vancouver, BC
Hey all, new to lost jeeps but happy I found ya, found so much good info already since newly acquiring my CRD. Bought her about 6 weeks ago but Just got her off the jack stands a week ago as I wanted to order in a bunch of parts first b4 making her my daily.

Replaced:

-CCV
-Turbo inlet hose (was cracked at the turbo clamp end)
-Sent in my ECU and PCM to GDE for a tune ( really helped with reducing smoke at idle and under throttle)
- replaced rear brakes and parking brake assembly
- Cleaned off the MAP, MAF, and Mercedes sensor in the air box
- installed a Meziere in-line thermostat & Stant 195 thermostat (as she was running sold)

This is my main issue, she’s still not warming up much past 1/4 mark. When I pulled into my garage today after getting back from work I popped the hood and noticed the rad fan was running, and I’m guessing she doesn’t stop. What are the possible reasons for this and do you think this is the culprit?

Any input would be most appreciated.

_________________
2005 Liberty CRD Sport: GDE ECO ft, GDE trans towing tune, Meziere Inline thermostat housing w/ Stant 195


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 Post subject: Re: Not reaching normal operating temp
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:00 am 
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Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:13 am
Posts: 384
Most people here will tell you to get rid of the in-line thermostat and install either an OEM Behr thermostat (NOT CROWN!) or an upgraded HDS-001 thermostat, sold by one of the members of this forum. Both are relatively expensive for what they are, but both retain the intended coolant flow to the cylinders when the engine is cold. The OEM units usually last 40 or 50k miles or more and cost about $125+. The HDS is significantly more expensive but allows you to install standard off the shelf thermostats when they fail. A handful of people here have been running the in-line for years without any real problems but it undeniably changes the way the engineers who designed the engine intended the coolant to flow. If yours is not reaching temp with the in-line installed and you intend to keep using it that way, I would double check to make sure it is installed the proper direction, make sure the thermostat itself has a small hole drilled in the flange to allow some bypass fluid (and make sure the hole is located UP when installed to allow air through). Finally, you'll want to make sure that all the air is out of the system by opening the radiator bleeder screw to let excess air out of the system.

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2006 Limited CRD: Frankenlift II, Fumoto Drain Plug, DIY Stage 1 Tune, In-Tank Lift Pump


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 Post subject: Re: Not reaching normal operating temp
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:04 am 
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Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:43 am
Posts: 4405
Location: Green Cove Springs FL
BC_CRDtom wrote:
- installed a Meziere in-line thermostat & Stant 195 thermostat (as she was running sold)

This is my main issue, she’s still not warming up much past 1/4 mark. When I pulled into my garage today after getting back from work I popped the hood and noticed the rad fan was running, and I’m guessing she doesn’t stop. What are the possible reasons for this and do you think this is the culprit?

Any input would be most appreciated.

With your stant thermostat, the engine should have no problem getting warmed up to almost the halfway mark. If its not, your stant is not functioning properly or you are not driving it long enough to get it warmed up. These engines can take a while to get warmed up especially in freezing temperatures.

I recommend taking out the inline thermostat and replacing the whole thermostat housing with a proper Mopar unit. The inline is a bandaid at best. Not a proper fix.

Which rad fan is running? The engine driven fan or the electric fan in the grille?
The electric fan comes on whenever the AC is on. If the AC is on or the vent control is set to defrost, the electric fan will be on.
If the electric fan is running without the AC being on or vent set to defrost, then you either have a bad fan relay or a bad AC pressure switch. Or some other fault in the AC system or electrical system.

Sent you a PM with more thermostat details.

_________________
Bought my '05 CRD on June 2nd '07, used with 29,000 miles.
intake elbow and EGR delete. 5 volt bosch glow plugs
Yeti stage 2 ECU tune. Straight pipe exhaust. DIY intercooler hoses
Provent and modified factory 180F thermostat
Replaced cylinder head (cracked) at 160,000 miles + ARP studs
2.5 inch lift, JBA upper arms, 235-85-16 tires.
Still love it.


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 Post subject: Re: Not reaching normal operating temp
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:29 am 
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Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:36 pm
Posts: 4244
Location: Central GA
APC9199 wrote:
Most people here will tell you to get rid of the in-line thermostat and install either an OEM Behr thermostat (NOT CROWN!) or an upgraded HDS-001 thermostat, sold by one of the members of this forum. Both are relatively expensive for what they are, but both retain the intended coolant flow to the cylinders when the engine is cold. The OEM units usually last 40 or 50k miles or more and cost about $125+. The HDS is significantly more expensive but allows you to install standard off the shelf thermostats when they fail. A handful of people here have been running the in-line for years without any real problems but it undeniably changes the way the engineers who designed the engine intended the coolant to flow. If yours is not reaching temp with the in-line installed and you intend to keep using it that way, I would double check to make sure it is installed the proper direction, make sure the thermostat itself has a small hole drilled in the flange to allow some bypass fluid (and make sure the hole is located UP when installed to allow air through). Finally, you'll want to make sure that all the air is out of the system by opening the radiator bleeder screw to let excess air out of the system.

Agreed! Some on LOST have suspected and / or blamed in-line thermostats for either a blown head gasket or a cracked head. :shock:
Simply not worth the risk and possible expensive consequences... :grim:

_________________
05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited :JEEPIN:
Blk Brush Guard/Hella's/LED's
Ironman Springs/Bilstein's
Yeti Stg4 MaxTune
Weeks ElbowKit/BatteryTray
NO FCV/EGR
Samcos/ProVent
SunCoast/Transgo
Carter Intank-pump
2mic.Sec.Fuel Filter
Flowmaster/NOcat
V6 Airbox
GM11 blade fan/NAPA HDclutch
Ironrock Trilink
98 Dodge Cummins, 5"exh. Viair, Huge K&N


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 Post subject: Re: Not reaching normal operating temp
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:05 pm 
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Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:38 pm
Posts: 15
Location: Vancouver, BC
So I fixed my issue. Turns out the hole I drilled I the skirt of the 195 was too large. Bought another generic 180 and drilled a pin hole in it and she warms up within minutes now. I hear your concerns about the flow restriction issues if leaving the original stuck open t-stat in; however, I thought the original tstat housing has a bypass in it to circulate through the block until operating temps are reached. Wouldn't this factor prevent possible flow issues?

_________________
2005 Liberty CRD Sport: GDE ECO ft, GDE trans towing tune, Meziere Inline thermostat housing w/ Stant 195


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 Post subject: Re: Not reaching normal operating temp
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:28 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:43 am
Posts: 4405
Location: Green Cove Springs FL
The problem is in how the factory thermostat controls both the main outlet and the bypass outlet opening and closing.
If the factory thermostat fails in a way where it is always stuck open, then the bypass is always stuck closed.
If the factory thermostat is opening too early, then the bypass is closing too early.
In either case, adding a 195F inline thermostat means that there will be times where the inline hasn't opened yet while the failed factory thermostat has closed off the bypass.
During that time, there is insufficient coolant flow through the head.

_________________
Bought my '05 CRD on June 2nd '07, used with 29,000 miles.
intake elbow and EGR delete. 5 volt bosch glow plugs
Yeti stage 2 ECU tune. Straight pipe exhaust. DIY intercooler hoses
Provent and modified factory 180F thermostat
Replaced cylinder head (cracked) at 160,000 miles + ARP studs
2.5 inch lift, JBA upper arms, 235-85-16 tires.
Still love it.


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 Post subject: Re: Not reaching normal operating temp
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:34 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:22 pm
Posts: 392
Location: north central Nebraska
WWDiesel wrote:
APC9199 wrote:
Most people here will tell you to get rid of the in-line thermostat and install either an OEM Behr thermostat (NOT CROWN!) or an upgraded HDS-001 thermostat, sold by one of the members of this forum. Both are relatively expensive for what they are, but both retain the intended coolant flow to the cylinders when the engine is cold. The OEM units usually last 40 or 50k miles or more and cost about $125+. The HDS is significantly more expensive but allows you to install standard off the shelf thermostats when they fail. A handful of people here have been running the in-line for years without any real problems but it undeniably changes the way the engineers who designed the engine intended the coolant to flow. If yours is not reaching temp with the in-line installed and you intend to keep using it that way, I would double check to make sure it is installed the proper direction, make sure the thermostat itself has a small hole drilled in the flange to allow some bypass fluid (and make sure the hole is located UP when installed to allow air through). Finally, you'll want to make sure that all the air is out of the system by opening the radiator bleeder screw to let excess air out of the system.

Agreed! Some on LOST have suspected and / or blamed in-line thermostats for either a blown head gasket or a cracked head. :shock:
Simply not worth the risk and possible expensive consequences... :grim:


I'll verify the fact about not maintaining circulation within the block and head can get very expensive;
I run several old cummins V8 903 cu. inch on various machines. Coolant flows out of the block mounted pump, to the chambers surrounding the cylinders in each bank. coolant circulates around each cylinder as it rises to the head. from there, it's all combined and flows out the front of each head (which where the stat stops cold coolant from flowing back to radiator)
There is an 1.5 inch hose/pipe just before each stat that bypasses right back to the low pressure side of the pump, just to make sure there are no hot spots front-to-rear.
What happens when operator (Me) 'misses' the fact that 3 heavy v belts are a little loose on the pump??? Just enough coolant flows to keep the front 2 or 3 'operational'... while the back jug fries and galls to oblivion. It Never even showed it 'overheating' ... because THAT hot water never made it up to the temp sensor(s)!! You may never know about heating issues until the damage is done. My beasts burn 20 gallons per hour, that's a LOT of BTU's to deal with.
Jacking around with the built-in circulatory path our engines have isn't a good idea! With our aluminum head, and the rate they expand compared to the iron block they sit on... having a 'cold' end and a 'hot' end at the same time can't be good!

_________________
2006 KJ CRD, bought 9/11/14, 70,500 miles. Circulating Rotella T6 5w-40
11-3-14 oem stat installed
11-5-14 gen II FH installed.
Sasquatch elbow kit, samcos, GDE eco FT. 11-26-14
80,500 miles, engine is disassembled, awaiting parts 3/18
Budget?? Sure! 'Everything I have'.
New "Pet" name for My Jeep; 'Soul Sucker'


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 Post subject: Re: Not reaching normal operating temp
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:58 pm 
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Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:36 pm
Posts: 4244
Location: Central GA
rancherman wrote:
Jacking around with the built-in circulatory path our engines have isn't a good idea! With our aluminum head, and the rate they expand compared to the iron block they sit on... having a 'cold' end and a 'hot' end at the same time can't be good!

X2
So very true and can be costly! :roll:

_________________
05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited :JEEPIN:
Blk Brush Guard/Hella's/LED's
Ironman Springs/Bilstein's
Yeti Stg4 MaxTune
Weeks ElbowKit/BatteryTray
NO FCV/EGR
Samcos/ProVent
SunCoast/Transgo
Carter Intank-pump
2mic.Sec.Fuel Filter
Flowmaster/NOcat
V6 Airbox
GM11 blade fan/NAPA HDclutch
Ironrock Trilink
98 Dodge Cummins, 5"exh. Viair, Huge K&N


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 Post subject: Re: Not reaching normal operating temp
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:37 pm 
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Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:29 pm
Posts: 804
Just fleshing out the details of the problem with inline thermostat valves...

The bypass circuit in the Liberty CRD engine is not an open circuit. It is also controlled by a valve, just like the cooling system circuit running coolant through the radiator. Both valves are controlled by the same wax motor; when one circuit is open, the other circuit is closed. When the valve in one circuit is stroking open, the valve in the other circuit is stroking closed. The following link will show you how this type of valve operates....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HclvBmwWgQ

This is a very good design for directing coolant to where it is required, verses older design cooling systems that have a bypass circuit that is not controlled by a valve and is therefore always open. The problem with a bypass circuit that is always open is that some coolant will always be diverted through the bypass, instead of through the radiator circuit where it is needed in heavy demand situations.

To understand why a PROPER thermostat upgrade for the Liberty CRD had to be developed, you need to know that thermostat valves - at the end of their service life - are designed to fail open at the radiator circuit valve because failing closed would bring about an overheat situation.

The problem with a valve-controlled bypass like the one in the CRD engine is that, when the thermostat valve fails permanently open, the bypass valve remains permanently closed, shutting of the bypass circuit permanently. If someone were to put another thermostat valve in the upper radiator hose in conjunction with a failed O.E. thermostat assembly, then any time the upper radiator thermostat valve is closed because the engine is not hot enough, there is inadequate coolant flowing through the engine and cylinder head because BOTH circuits are blocked off. This can cause hot spots to form in the cylinder head - starting around the exhaust ports - and can lead to the cylinder head warping and/or cracking, along with cylinder head gasket failures.

It is not a coincidence that the Liberty CRD has a disproportionate amount of cylinder head gasket failures, warped and/or cracked cylinder heads, and exhaust valve failures. If CRD owners are opting to try and get their engine operating temperatures up by using a thermostat valve stuffed in the upper radiator hose, this is likely the main culprit of those problems.

Wait and revisit this thread... no doubt there will be several defenders of the inline thermostat option posting counter opinions.

They are entitled to their opinion, of course; in Western Society it is their democratic right to be wrong. They do not understand that cylinder head damage does not occur 100% of the time, and that when damage does occur it happens over a lengthy period of time, and most of the time you can not even see the damage until it is too late. Driving habits and the climate make a difference as well... it is likely that CRD owners who install an inline thermostat valve in warmer climates where engine operating temperatures remain elevated for longer periods of time would not experience as many problems as those who do so in the frigid North.

To these members I continue to say that it is rather arrogant for them to make fundamental changes to how the cooling system operates and then expect to have no problems down the road. The cooling system is designed the way it is because the engineers who designed the R428 engine have the education, the ability and the equipment to determine that this is the best design for this application.


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 Post subject: Re: Not reaching normal operating temp
PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:26 am 
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Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:15 am
Posts: 5402
Location: Tallahassee, Florida
Another member has my CRD so I don't have an ax to grind in this issue nor do I have a strong pro or con position on the head hot spot issue. That said my position on the in hose tstat option is that it's a short term option at best and it's absolutely critical that there be a hole in the skirt of the in hose tstat to make sure at least some flow is going past that tstat if its failed fully closed (e.g. blocked the bypass circuit) during the engine warm up cycle.

Why anyone would risk the possibility of engine damage to save the cost of an OEM replacement tstat (about $10 a month for 1 year) totally escapes me. Spending $s on all the other obvious upgrades (CCV hoses, EGR bypass, tunes, lifts, etc) and cheeping on a tstat just doesn't make sense.

The HDS tstat is a excellent product if you want a replaceable tstat option although I can understand passing on that option due to cost but NOT in order to install a permanent in hose tstat.

End of rant.

_________________
Sold to LOST member my 05 Ltd, GDE Stg II turbo + TCM tune, SunCoast TC w. Transgo kit, Steiger window regulators, Samcos, Fumoto valve, 2nd gen filter head with Lub. Spec. bleeder, Hayden clutch & 11 blade fan, inverted spare, P-1 battery, BF Goodrich Long Trail TAs, Etecno1 glow plugs, timing belt at 50K miles/8 yrs


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 Post subject: Re: Not reaching normal operating temp
PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:00 am 
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Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:36 pm
Posts: 4244
Location: Central GA
Jeff and others are correct!
In simple terms, the CRD cooling system is a balanced flow design; as one valve closes the other opens proportionally to maintain a required amount of coolant flow through the head AT ALL TIMES.
Doing any modification, or adding anything like an "in-line" thermostat that disrupts or lowers this required balanced flow through the head can have detrimental consequences which has already been alluded to by several members on this forum. :roll:
Heed their advice!

_________________
05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited :JEEPIN:
Blk Brush Guard/Hella's/LED's
Ironman Springs/Bilstein's
Yeti Stg4 MaxTune
Weeks ElbowKit/BatteryTray
NO FCV/EGR
Samcos/ProVent
SunCoast/Transgo
Carter Intank-pump
2mic.Sec.Fuel Filter
Flowmaster/NOcat
V6 Airbox
GM11 blade fan/NAPA HDclutch
Ironrock Trilink
98 Dodge Cummins, 5"exh. Viair, Huge K&N


Last edited by WWDiesel on Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Not reaching normal operating temp
PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:24 pm 
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Location: Oregon Coast Dairy Country. Land of stumps, dumps, and "Liquid Pumps"
papaindigo wrote:
Another member has my CRD so I don't have an ax to grind in this issue nor do I have a strong pro or con position on the head hot spot issue. That said my position on the in hose tstat option is that it's a short term option at best and it's absolutely critical that there be a hole in the skirt of the in hose tstat to make sure at least some flow is going past that tstat if its failed fully closed (e.g. blocked the bypass circuit) during the engine warm up cycle.

Why anyone would risk the possibility of engine damage to save the cost of an OEM replacement tstat (about $10 a month for 1 year) totally escapes me. Spending $s on all the other obvious upgrades (CCV hoses, EGR bypass, tunes, lifts, etc) and cheeping on a tstat just doesn't make sense.

The HDS tstat is a excellent product if you want a replaceable tstat option, although I can understand passing on that option due to cost but NOT in order to install a permanent in hose tstat.

End of rant.

When this CRD was bought, it came with a freshly installed timing kit (receipt from IDParts) including water pump and thermostat, and had less than 50 miles on it.
It still functions perfectly. That said, I've been squirlling away $10-20 per month as an HDS fund, so the impact won't be quite as hard when the time comes.
I choose this option because there is quite simply no superior alternative, at any price, and in any measure of performance.

It's in the same class of mods as in-tank fuel pumps for air incursion problems, Weeks kits for EGR problems elimination, Provents for CCV oil contamination of intakes. ONce it's there, I will never have to deal with removing the housing to replace a thermostat again, I will have a list of options for coolant temp, and replacement thermostat units are less than $20 rather than $120+. Those, for me, are all intangible values that go quite a ways towards balancing the cost, but only because I do not plan to sell it.

_________________
'06 Lbrty Sprt CRD 150K

Sasquatch
DSS Turbo
CAT-elimntr
Weeks Stg1&2 EGRfix
PV-200
BLING
vent gauges

IDParts
head
cams
rockers
Timing set
ARP studs
eTn1 GX2123 5v GPs

YETI Custom Tune
Flowmaster 8325508
Carter P76611M
GM 12611872
Hayden 2986
GM 15976889
PATC Custom Billet
2010 Ram Hemi Trans
Sonnax 44957
Transgo kit
Cooper 51770


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 Post subject: Re: Not reaching normal operating temp
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:02 pm 
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Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:38 pm
Posts: 15
Location: Vancouver, BC
Alright, you guys have spooked me adequately to restore my CRD to factory thermostat settings. There's a separate Inline Thermostat thread with like 80 posts, which I read over in this forum and not once does it mention risk to the head due to restricted coolant flow. I wish I would have learned of this before purchasing $1oo thermostat housing and a few thermostats as well as cutting my upper rad hose. I just got my CRD a few months ago and have been wrenching on her quite a bit and dropped almost $2000 into brakes, tunes, charge hoses, CCVs, and other miscellaneous things. My account cannot take anything more at this point. I'll have to resolve this before summer hits and I start towing my boat.

F

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2005 Liberty CRD Sport: GDE ECO ft, GDE trans towing tune, Meziere Inline thermostat housing w/ Stant 195


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 Post subject: Re: Not reaching normal operating temp
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:35 pm 
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Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:36 pm
Posts: 4244
Location: Central GA
BC_CRDtom wrote:
Alright, you guys have spooked me adequately to restore my CRD to factory thermostat settings. There's a separate Inline Thermostat thread with like 80 posts, which I read over in this forum and not once does it mention risk to the head due to restricted coolant flow. I wish I would have learned of this before purchasing $1oo thermostat housing and a few thermostats as well as cutting my upper rad hose. I just got my CRD a few months ago and have been wrenching on her quite a bit and dropped almost $2000 into brakes, tunes, charge hoses, CCVs, and other miscellaneous things. My account cannot take anything more at this point. I'll have to resolve this before summer hits and I start towing my boat. F

Good! Get rid of than inline thermostat before it can cost $$$$ you a more serious problem. :roll:
As to the inline thermostat thread you referenced, if you might have noticed, the very last post on that 82 post thread was "Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:10 pm"
This was long before some members of LOST had experienced and shared the detrimental consequences of adding an inline thermostat. :shock:

You can keep your inline thermostat housing in place if you want since you already cut your upper hose, just remove the Stant thermostat and leave the housing empty. :wink:
But for sure replace your factory thermostat! (do not use Crown part)

_________________
05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited :JEEPIN:
Blk Brush Guard/Hella's/LED's
Ironman Springs/Bilstein's
Yeti Stg4 MaxTune
Weeks ElbowKit/BatteryTray
NO FCV/EGR
Samcos/ProVent
SunCoast/Transgo
Carter Intank-pump
2mic.Sec.Fuel Filter
Flowmaster/NOcat
V6 Airbox
GM11 blade fan/NAPA HDclutch
Ironrock Trilink
98 Dodge Cummins, 5"exh. Viair, Huge K&N


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 Post subject: Re: Not reaching normal operating temp
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:45 pm 
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Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:15 am
Posts: 5402
Location: Tallahassee, Florida
Upper radiator hose is Gates 22022 and shouldn't cost more than $25-30 Canadian ($15-20 US). If you weren't so darned far away I'd sell you my spare.

Word of caution based on sad experience. Be very careful how you trim the new hose; use the existing one with the inline tstat in place as a model. As I recall you need to trim off the long end. If you trim incorrectly the underside of the hose will rub on the viscous heater pulley causing a notch cut into the hose in about 100-150 miles with bad coolant results. Can be repaired on the fly with lots of duct tape but isn't any fun. Don't ask how I know.

_________________
Sold to LOST member my 05 Ltd, GDE Stg II turbo + TCM tune, SunCoast TC w. Transgo kit, Steiger window regulators, Samcos, Fumoto valve, 2nd gen filter head with Lub. Spec. bleeder, Hayden clutch & 11 blade fan, inverted spare, P-1 battery, BF Goodrich Long Trail TAs, Etecno1 glow plugs, timing belt at 50K miles/8 yrs


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