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 Post subject: Re: No Cabin Heat on Warm-Up, Coolant Issues, Bad Head Gaske
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:09 pm 
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flash7210 wrote:
Its hard to say exactly how much bubbling is acceptable.
Assuming that all the air is bled out of the cooling system, there should be no bubbles.
Is your EGR cooler still connected? I think you've already stated that you removed the EGR.

Proceed with the pressure test and glow plug removal. That will be definitive.
Yes, EGR Cooler is no longer present. I'll be testing for exhuast gases in coolant tomorrow. When I get more time I will remove glow plugs.
geordi wrote:
When you replaced the head - What head gasket size did you use? There are three sizes, no-hole, one-hole, and two-hole. The thickest option is the two-hole and is the generally suggested option for any replacement, no matter what the CRD had before.
Old one and replacement were both no-hole.

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 Post subject: Re: No Cabin Heat on Warm-Up, Coolant Issues, Bad Head Gaske
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:26 am 
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There is an extremely strong possibility then that you still have a head gasket leak, that the pressure pushing the water out is in fact - combustion pressure. The combustion chamber creates north of 2500 psi, it doesn't take much of a microscopic hole to allow that to escape into the water jacket. This is why we suggest that every CRD replacing the head or the gasket always select the two-hole gasket.

You can try the "cold engine test" for confirmation, but the bubbles you saw through the hose pretty much do that already too.

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 Post subject: Re: No Cabin Heat on Warm-Up, Coolant Issues, Bad Head Gaske
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:19 pm 
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geordi wrote:
There is an extremely strong possibility then that you still have a head gasket leak, that the pressure pushing the water out is in fact - combustion pressure. The combustion chamber creates north of 2500 psi, it doesn't take much of a microscopic hole to allow that to escape into the water jacket. This is why we suggest that every CRD replacing the head or the gasket always select the two-hole gasket.

You can try the "cold engine test" for confirmation, but the bubbles you saw through the hose pretty much do that already too.
It would be unfortunate if the head gasket selection is the source of my issues......I must have missed the 2-hole recommendation in my research last spring.

My combustion leak test kit arrived today, turned the blue fluid green so that is not a good sign. Is the "cold engine test" the one where you check for pressure after the engine cools down, or where you check for pressure 30-sec after starting a cold engine? Hope to hear back on oil analysis next week. Will pull glow plugs when I get time.

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 Post subject: Re: No Cabin Heat on Warm-Up, Coolant Issues, Bad Head Gaske
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:29 am 
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Oil analysis came back.....clean as a whistle.

Not really quite sure how to proceed from here. Last year when there was coolant in the oil I had a cracked head, so it was letting coolant into one of my combustion chambers, but my only symptom was slight coolant loss, it wasn't pushing coolant into the expansion tank like it is now. I'm fairly certain I'm getting combustion gasses into my coolant system, so must be some sort of head gasket issue. I either needed a thicker gasket or one of the mating surfaces isn't flat. Another thought is I used too much (or not enough) of the Permatex copper gasket maker.

It's interesting how I'm getting so much coolant into the overflow, especially when the reservoir isn't over-full. At idle you can't really notice anything strange happening, but I'm guessing under boost there must be so much more combustion gas getting into the coolant system that it brings coolant with it when relieving over the cap.

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 Post subject: Re: No Cabin Heat on Warm-Up, Coolant Issues, Bad Head Gaske
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:55 am 
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geordi wrote:
There is an extremely strong possibility then that you still have a head gasket leak, that the pressure pushing the water out is in fact - combustion pressure. The combustion chamber creates north of 2500 psi, it doesn't take much of a microscopic hole to allow that to escape into the water jacket.

This point also highlights a point of some urgency. A microscopic pinhole leak through which combustion gasses are leaking, will not stay microscopic for long, and the harder it's run, the less time it will take to be torched larger.

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 Post subject: Re: No Cabin Heat on Warm-Up, Coolant Issues, Bad Head Gaske
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2018 8:44 am 
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I tore it down yesterday, here are some pics of the head/gasket/block (front of engine is to the right). With my untrained eyes I can't see any clear evidence of blowby past the gasket, but looks like I did use plenty of copper gasket maker (I'm questioning the use of this stuff). I'm planning on taking the head in for inspection this week. How do I go about cleaning/inspecting the block?

Image
Image
Image
Image

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1998 Cherokee (XJ) Classic - 30" Discoverer STT's on 2" Lift, SYE, 8.25 w/Aussie Locker
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 Post subject: Re: No Cabin Heat on Warm-Up, Coolant Issues, Bad Head Gaske
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 12:30 pm 
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Those pictures are very interesting. I would have expected more of the copper to be evident. I also do not see any obvious evidence for combustion migration, but then this engine hasn't been operated for many months with a leak so it may not have had the chance to burn or rust the gasket. It also could be in the layers of the gasket and not on the surface.

When you were assembling it last time, did you let the copper "set up" for at least 5 minutes before assembly? Sprayed to an even coating across all 4 surfaces and not just one side of the gasket or block?

The combustion gas test does seem to confirm what we already suspected though, that you had a massive combustion leak that hadn't (yet) opened up to the level of allowing water back into the cylinders. That is a good thing, but likely was caused b/c the liners contacted the bottom of the head and didn't allow the gasket to be properly compressed. Hopefully no warping is detected by the machine shop. Ask them also to do a pressure test so that you know there aren't any cracks or other leak points in the thing. These are new valves too, right?

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 Post subject: Re: No Cabin Heat on Warm-Up, Coolant Issues, Bad Head Gaske
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 11:36 pm 
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geordi wrote:
When you were assembling it last time, did you let the copper "set up" for at least 5 minutes before assembly? Sprayed to an even coating across all 4 surfaces and not just one side of the gasket or block?
Here are some pics from when I installed the head last spring, I did let the copper set up for at least 5 min (pry more like 30 min or better).

Image

Image

geordi wrote:
The combustion gas test does seem to confirm what we already suspected though, that you had a massive combustion leak that hadn't (yet) opened up to the level of allowing water back into the cylinders. That is a good thing, but likely was caused b/c the liners contacted the bottom of the head and didn't allow the gasket to be properly compressed.
Is there something I should be checking/adjusting with the liners? Or just use the 2-hole gasket and be done with it?

geordi wrote:
These are new valves too, right?
My replacement head was a "good used head" I bought from VM Specialists, they claimed it was "pressure tested, cleaned, valves refaced and seats cut". Will see what the machine shop says.

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 Post subject: Re: No Cabin Heat on Warm-Up, Coolant Issues, Bad Head Gaske
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 1:41 am 
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Yes, don't worry about the liners, just use the two-hole gasket in all applications.

Nothing against VM Specialist, but I have no clue what they mean by "refacing" the valves... The only parts that do any work are the actual mating surfaces with the seats, and the seats are 3-angle grind which may or may not be able to be recut. I don't have a problem *in general* with what they said... HOWEVER the testing has suggested that the failure is in the stem of the exhaust valves, within the alloy section and due to simple cycle fatigue.

As such, any form of *used* would be ill-advised since you have no way of knowing how long they have been in service. It isn't a matter of miles, as low-speed driving will rack up fewer miles in the same amount of operational hours, and we don't have an hour meter on these engines so there is no way to know how long they will actually perform. The failures tested seem to calculate out to around 300 billion cycles or so, which under normal USA operation can be around 200k miles.

The risk is spending $150 for a set of exhaust valves when maybe they don't need to be replaced... But the reward is not having to replace a piston if that guess was wrong.

I'm intrigued by the pictures from when the copper was fresh - How'd you spray the underside of the head and perfectly miss all 4 cylinder / valve bays? I don't usually worry about that b/c the copper will cook off in the first few seconds of operation, but that is curiously pretty and clean. The coating generally looks good otherwise, maybe it was allowed to sit for too long... I'm not sure how that could affect the performance. I generally start reassembly after putting the gasket onto the block and then spraying the head / top of the gasket, so I'm adding pressure of the studs somewhere around the 15-20 minute mark for the block / gasket interface. I'm probably overthinking it though. That stuff stays sticky for a loooooong time.


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 Post subject: Re: No Cabin Heat on Warm-Up, Coolant Issues, Bad Head Gaske
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 12:58 am 
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geordi wrote:
I'm intrigued by the pictures from when the copper was fresh - How'd you spray the underside of the head and perfectly miss all 4 cylinder / valve bays?
I think I made round paper cutouts to protect those surfaces. Old painters trick!

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 Post subject: Re: No Cabin Heat on Warm-Up, Coolant Issues, Bad Head Gaske
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 12:41 pm 
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Regarding used heads from VM specialists.

Refacing the valves simply means to grind the valves against the seats.
A.k.a lapping the valves

They claim that their heads are low mileage but never specify an exact mileage. But it’s most likely that the head you receive will be a newer casting.
My old head had a 2004 date stamped on it.
My replacement head had a 2007 date.

Personally, I believe that the newer castings are improved with better valves.
But that’s probably just wishful thinking as I have no evidence to back that up.
I guess I’ll let you know in another 100,000 miles.

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 Post subject: Re: No Cabin Heat on Warm-Up, Coolant Issues, Bad Head Gaske
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 8:27 pm 
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I heard back from the machine shop.....head passed the leak check (60 psi) and was flat. I will be taking some measurements of my cylinder liners and going from there.

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 Post subject: Re: No Cabin Heat on Warm-Up, Coolant Issues, Bad Head Gaske
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 1:15 am 
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Just use the two-hole. The measurement is less important than a solid seal, and if the liner lip is allowed to contact the bottom of the head, then the gasket WILL NOT properly seal. The flange just next to the liner lip is where the seal is actually made because this engine lacks a "fire ring" in the head to match that liner lip. So compression of the gasket is critically important. There will not be a measurable change in combustion chamber volume from using the thicker gasket, the difference between the thinnest and thickest gaskets is only 20 thousands anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: No Cabin Heat on Warm-Up, Coolant Issues, Bad Head Gaske
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 12:04 pm 
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geordi wrote:
Just use the two-hole. The measurement is less important than a solid seal, and if the liner lip is allowed to contact the bottom of the head, then the gasket WILL NOT properly seal. The flange just next to the liner lip is where the seal is actually made because this engine lacks a "fire ring" in the head to match that liner lip. So compression of the gasket is critically important. There will not be a measurable change in combustion chamber volume from using the thicker gasket, the difference between the thinnest and thickest gaskets is only 20 thousands anyway.


1.32mm no hole gasket is .0519 inch
1.42mm one hole gasket is .0559 inch
1.52mm two hole gasket is .0598 inch.

Unless there was even thicker gaskets, the difference between thickest and thinnest is only .0079 inch. Or 0.20 mm

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 Post subject: Re: No Cabin Heat on Warm-Up, Coolant Issues, Bad Head Gaske
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 2:07 pm 
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Ok, so I had the unit wrong. .2mm though - pretty dang minimal.


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 Post subject: Re: No Cabin Heat on Warm-Up, Coolant Issues, Bad Head Gaske
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 12:35 am 
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I need to order parts and at this point I'm leaning towards the 2-hole gasket and proceeding from there. Couple of other questions:

- A couple of the head-bolt cavities in my block are full of oil, I noticed this when removing the ARP studs, is this of any concern?
- I did follow the recommended ARP torqueing procedure before, but I'm curious the intent behind the loosening and adjusting of the nut before setting the final torque? Is this to make sure the stud is threaded into the block as much as possible?

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 Post subject: Re: No Cabin Heat on Warm-Up, Coolant Issues, Bad Head Gaske
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 1:28 am 
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fool4wheelin wrote:
I need to order parts and at this point I'm leaning towards the 2-hole gasket and proceeding from there. Couple of other questions:

- A couple of the head-bolt cavities in my block are full of oil, I noticed this when removing the ARP studs, is this of any concern?
- I did follow the recommended ARP torqueing procedure before, but I'm curious the intent behind the loosening and adjusting of the nut before setting the final torque? Is this to make sure the stud is threaded into the block as much as possible?


I have seen some blocks with oil in a couple holes, others have none. I don't think it matters once the head is properly clamped and it will not affect the torque ratings as the stud is not capable of rotating while the nut is being torqued. I suspect this is just drainage from removing the head, if it was coming from a gallery... Why wouldn't it have already drained to the pan just from gravity? The holes should all be blind, but maybe there are differences in how they were bored from the factory. Don't know, never seemed to be much of an issue. I do usually twist up a paper towel and soak out as much of that as I can though, hydrolocking the threads would not be useful.

As far as the procedure here, yes, the final adjustment on the stud / nut is to ensure both the maximum depth on the studs, and that you don't have excessive height above the nut when the torquing is done. Clearance above certain holes (11-14) can be an issue.

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 Post subject: Re: No Cabin Heat on Warm-Up, Coolant Issues, Bad Head Gaske
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 12:22 pm 
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fool4wheelin wrote:
I need to order parts and at this point I'm leaning towards the 2-hole gasket and proceeding from there.

The head gasket should be replaced with the same thickness, i.e. 1,2,or 3 hole as the one that is removed unless you have the head machined or replace pistons or connecting rods.
There are engineering reasons for the different thicknesses used as determined by the amount of the pistons protrusions above the top of piston liner.
Too thick a gasket and you loose compression, too thin and valve to piston clearance could be compromised to the point of contact.
The FSM covers these requirements in great detail...

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 Post subject: Re: No Cabin Heat on Warm-Up, Coolant Issues, Bad Head Gaske
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 1:55 pm 
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WWDiesel wrote:
fool4wheelin wrote:
I need to order parts and at this point I'm leaning towards the 2-hole gasket and proceeding from there.

The head gasket should be replaced with the same thickness, i.e. 1,2,or 3 hole as the one that is removed unless you have the head machined or replace pistons or connecting rods.
There are engineering reasons for the different thicknesses used as determined by the amount of the pistons protrusions above the top of piston liner.
Too thick a gasket and you loose compression, too thin and valve to piston clearance could be compromised to the point of contact.
The FSM covers these requirements in great detail...


Exactly.
As far as 'sealing' ability, no amount of added thickness above deck will change how the liner 'bites' into the gasket.
That ring of liner protrusion is THE PRIMARY SEALING OF COMBUSION. The rest of the gasket is to keep oil in it's passages, coolant in it's passages, and to maintain parallel distances between block and head.
(lets get this clear right now; I'm talking about the slight area the gasket sits on) letter 'a' in pic, not the part that extends upwards through the gasket.
This pic shows a recessed liner, because there are no shims installed. When in 'spec', letter 'a' should be 'zero' to .0019 positive height. VMspecialists even told me to 'push' it to .0024 inch.
Piling up thickness on top will not change the interference 'bite' in this area.
Image

I agree with the machining of the head... only if the valves are not 'set' back into the new surface. If done, (I don't recommend it, because of the nickel plating on the head surface) machining the head will 'protrude' the valves the same amount of material which is removed from head. So a valve job will be required to 'sink' the valves to proper height. Then, everything is 'same, same'.
Milling the block will certainly protrude the pistons!!, placing them closer to the head, and will dictate using thinner shims to 'set' the liner protrusion to spec. ( or milling the pocket the liner sits in the same amount) Milling the block will dictate using thicker head gasket, and resetting the liner height.

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 Post subject: Re: No Cabin Heat on Warm-Up, Coolant Issues, Bad Head Gaske
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 2:33 pm 
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If the head is in bad enough shape (warped or scored) that it requires machining to reflaten, one should strongly consider replacing the head instead due to the nickel plating on the mating surface.
I too was a proponent of very slight machining until I recently learned of the hard nickel plating on the heads mating surface, but not anymore. We all live and learn. :juggle:

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