No Cabin Heat on Warm-Up, Coolant Issues, Bad Head Gasket?

fool4wheelin · **Posted:** Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:24 am

I have everything back together (for a few weeks now), only thing I ended up doing was using a new head gasket (no copper cote!). After filling the cooling system with distilled water and a couple bottles of cooling system flush I was getting concerned with the amount of "boiling over" I was getting in the coolant reservoir (not to mention the foaming from the flush). I borrowed the coolant pressure tester from O'Reilly's again and my coolant system held 15 psi for 48 hours! I used my coolant exhaust gas tester and it gave a negative reading for exhaust gas, so after figuring the high concentration of water was causing the "boiling over" I drained the coolant system (everything except the block, just found out there is a block drain plug between the water pump and oil cooler) and filled it up with fresh Zerex G-05 and a brand new 05278697AA radiator cap from the local dealer. So far so good, no signs of coolant in the overflow portion of the reservoir bottle.

Couple of notes from this teardown that may help others:
- It saves a lot of time to disassemble the grill and front bumper cover before tearing into the engine. Once you figure out what holds the grill and shrouds together it comes off farily quickly. With the grill out you get a lot more room to sneak the radiator and intercooler out without disconnecting the AC lines.
- The radiator drain plug also accepts a 10mm allen socket, easier to fit in the space compared to an open end wrench.
- I made my own "guide pins" for the valve cover out of 8mm bolts, just ground the heads off.

racertracer · **Posted:** Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:47 am

use a prestone coolant" T "that is part of the flushing kit https://www.walmart.com/ip/Prestone-Flu ... 3=&veh=sem

Install it at the very top... do not splice the heater hose but add 6' small heater hose to one side of the TEE and connect the other side of the Tee to the heater hose.

open the Tee and let the air out while the engine is running and not hot. Air comes out in 30 seconds.. Remove TEE and reattach heater hose as it was originally, add coolant... done.

rancherman · **Posted:** Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:59 am

Glad you got it done!
How long of running were you still seeing the 'boiling' or 'bubbles' in the tank?
I'll agree that just plain water in an open system could be doing that.. Especially if it was truly @ operating temp. In a 'closed system' (15psi. or 1 bar) it raises boiling temp to about 250 degrees. If you had the cap off to allow trapped air to escape, this is probably what was happening.
Our coolant path is not exactly a streamlined hydrodynamic flow.. lots of loopbacks, highs and lows.. and chasing the last of the trapped air takes time.
Could've been just that too, or a combination of the plain water as well.
The good news is it appears you now have a sealed engine! :BANANA:

fool4wheelin · **Posted:** Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:40 pm

rancherman wrote:

How long of running were you still seeing the 'boiling' or 'bubbles' in the tank?

With the water I couldn't get it to "boil over" at idle, had to be driving under load (radiator cap on) to get that to happen. Went away with fresh coolant and new cap. Will be keeping an eye on it though...

fool4wheelin · **Posted:** Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:50 am

Just when I thought it was safe to go out at night....

Haven't seen any issues for 3-days since putting fresh coolant in, but on the way home from work yesterday two things happened when driving on the freeway (85°F ambient with A/C on):

- U0146 "Lost Communication with Gateway" code was Thrown
- Low Coolant Light came On

When I got home sure enough my coolant reservoir was 1/2 way below full and the overflow tank was full. I quick used my coolant combustion gas checker and it tested positive. I don't think the code has anything to do with my exhaust/coolant issue but it is strange they happened at the same time (maybe some coolant that escaped the overflow tank got on some wiring?). I'm basically back to square one on this but its apparent that my engine needs to be under load for the exhaust to get into the coolant.

I haven't tried the test where you pressurize the cooling system and crank the engine with the glow plugs out.....I don't lose any pressure in the coolant system when pressure testing a cold engine and I don't think 16psi is enough to push water through whatever opening is there. But it may shed some light on the matter so I will definitely consider it.

I am planning on hooking up some sort of pressure gauge into the coolant system that I can read from the drivers seat, I'm curious to see what the pressure is doing, especially when under load.

Other than that I'm at a loss other than start swapping out parts :5SHOTS:

racertracer · **Posted:** Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:07 pm

Are you using something like this Lisle tester to test for combustion gasses in the coolant?

http://www.lislecorp.com/divisions/prod ... roduct=406

Diesel emission gasses are difficult to detect....and this tester worked for me, all others didn't.

rancherman · **Posted:** Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:24 pm

fool4wheelin wrote:

I am planning on hooking up some sort of pressure gauge into the coolant system that I can read from the drivers seat, I'm curious to see what the pressure is doing, especially when under load.

:5SHOTS:

I think all you'll find is whatever the cap is rated for.. 15-16 psi. Wild swing here, but I'd bet when engine temp is 'normal', it's probably not the full 16.. maybe 8-10? get it to 200, or even 220+ before the full pressure is seen under the cap
I also think you'll see , it hit that mark real quick.. long before it's actually up to temp.. Like gordnado posted, it'd be nice to have a cap with a gauge. We be able to track what kind of pressures there are in various conditions..

fool4wheelin · **Posted:** Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:31 am

racertracer wrote:

Are you using something like this Lisle tester to test for combustion gasses in the coolant?

http://www.lislecorp.com/divisions/prod ... roduct=406

Diesel emission gasses are difficult to detect....and this tester worked for me, all others didn't.

This is what I'm using: https://www.uview.com/index.cfm?dsp=productdetail&id=45700&productid=5122

racertracer · **Posted:** Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:34 am

fool4wheelin · **Posted:** Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:04 pm

I'm weighing my options on how to proceed from here. When I tore my engine down I was hoping to find that "smoking gun" that was causing the leak, so when I didn't really find anything I was well aware I may still have issues after putting it back together.

I am planning on pressurizing each cylinder through the glow plug ports with shop air to hopefully pinpoint the leak. Depending on what I find I may tear it down again or try and find a used engine. Does anyone know where to find a long block or a used engine? Apparently they are discontinued from Chrysler and the one local shop I checked with found a used engine with 100k on it for $4500. I could also strip it down and pull the engine if I can find someone qualified to work on it.

I am open to selling it if anyone is interested in a project. I have newer rubber on it and the drivetrain and suspension are stock. I have completed many of the recommended reliability/performance mods to the engine and have kept up on the general maintenance.

flash7210 · **Posted:** Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:33 pm

I thought for sure I had a head gasket leak.
Pressurized the coolant tank, pulled glow plugs, cranked and water shot out.
(Also discovered that my EGR cooler was leaking into the exhaust)
Pulled the head and sent it off to the machine shop. Specifically asked them to check for cracks.
(I don’t know how they tested but they didn’t find the cracks)
Put the head back on, ran the engine, still loosing coolant out the exhaust.

So I did my own test for cracks...

Removed turbo
Removed exhaust manifold
Reconnected coolant lines and topped off with water.
Pressurized coolant tank.
Water started dripping out the exhaust ports.

I repeated the test after removing the intake manifold to confirm (all valves closed).
Same result.
Cracked head.

fool4wheelin · **Posted:** Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:37 pm

I pressurized each cylinder through the glow plug port with shop air and found #4 to be the culprit. Will have to tear it down again and see what I find.

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Sun Jul 01, 2018 12:52 am

fool4wheelin wrote:

I pressurized each cylinder through the glow plug port with shop air and found #4 to be the culprit. Will have to tear it down again and see what I find.

Combustion leaking to coolant - (Head gasket or cracked head)
or
Combustion leaking to oil - (Head gasket or cracked cylinder liner)?

fool4wheelin · **Posted:** Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:52 pm

Found the problem, cracked liner on cylinder #4. Any recommendations on what to do from here?

On the bright side, I did find my 10mm 3/8" drive socket that fell behind the block onto the bellhousing!

rancherman · **Posted:** Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:40 pm

fool4wheelin wrote:

Found the problem, cracked liner on cylinder #4. Any recommendations on what to do from here?

On the bright side, I did find my 10mm 3/8" drive socket that fell behind the block onto the bellhousing!

Going 'deep' is what's next. Engine comes out. IF you can salvage the pistons, those particular rings are probably at least scuffed due to the antifreeze.
No one has been able to verify if the NEW style pistons match the old style.. for weight purposes.. and of course the only way to re-ring the old pistons is to buy new pistons AND rings too.. All four of them. $1400. liners are about $100 each with the shims/O-rings.. My issue is, you have the engine apart. It really makes it insane not to put in new rings while you are there~ MORE insane is the cost just to be able to put new rings in it.

Can't advocate putting the engine back together w/o new bearings either.

flash7210 · **Posted:** Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:37 pm

I’m willing to bet that the rings are still ok.
Cylinder walls still look good.
Just clean all the carbon out of the ring grooves.

fool4wheelin · **Posted:** Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:53 am

Looks like I have a couple short block options, but I am going to take a look at fixing what I have first. I understand the trade-offs on replacing parts while things are apart, but I can't justify throwing a lot of coin at this thing given the general age and condition of the vehicle. Couple of questions:

- Is it possible to pull the oil pan and replace the #4 liner with the block still in the vehicle?
- What are the chances my other liners are in the same condition?
- If I pull the block and remove all the liners for inspection, can I re-use the good ones or would I need to get all new liners?

flash7210 · **Posted:** Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:39 am

Technically, you could do an in-frame liner replacement, but...

You’d have to drop the entire front cross member assembly just to get the pan off. Then have something to support the engine while the cross member is out.
Plus, #4 is hard to get at because it’s so close to the firewall. I’m not sure you could even get the liner out.

So pick your poison.
Either pull the engine or drop the cross member.
It’s easier to pull the engine with the head removed.

fool4wheelin · **Posted:** Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:30 pm

flash7210 wrote:

You’d have to drop the entire front cross member assembly just to get the pan off. Then have something to support the engine while the cross member is out.

I don't believe the engine is tied into the crossmember?? Unless the engine mounts are integrated somehow. Will have to get under there and look.

rancherman · **Posted:** Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:12 pm

flash7210 wrote:

Technically, you could do an in-frame liner replacement, but...

You’d have to drop the entire front cross member assembly just to get the pan off. Then have something to support the engine while the cross member is out.
Plus, #4 is hard to get at because it’s so close to the firewall. I’m not sure you could even get the liner out.

So pick your poison.
Either pull the engine or drop the cross member.
It’s easier to pull the engine with the head removed.

will the liner clear the cowling for removal? Been so long since I've had the engine in the jeep, I forget! It will be close!!

No Cabin Heat on Warm-Up, Coolant Issues, Bad Head Gasket?

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