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 Post subject: New to the forum, Head gasket questions....Well lots more..
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:09 pm 
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Long story short, Been a diesel guy for awhile. Broke down and picked one out, Anyhow everyone I have looked at within 3 hours of my house has had soot in the coolant and all have been around 100-150k. And I do mean everyone of them but one which was outta price range. With that said talked to a buddy that is a dodge cummins tech and he told me a little about the head gasket design on the crds. Which inevitably led me here, And from what I can see he was very accurate about most being laminated gaskets. That said I hunted and went back inforth with myself about buying a basket case of a diesel, But in the long run decided I would have fun learning and may get a nice bad weather and summer time camp rig out of the deal. And here is where we start, I had x amount to spend. Set aside enough for timing, timing tools, cylinder head install kit with gasket and arp head bolts, gates accessory belt with both idler pulleys and tensioner pulley. I plan on having head checked over for cracks, If creaked its gonna put my project a few months behind for budget constrants. What parts would you swap with the undertaking of a head gasket? Next, I was told by two crd guys who I informed had soot in their overflow that you cannot do a full egr delete. One said that the egr is also used to help with over boost, Are these not vgt turbos? The other said the engine will not get up to operating temps in the winter without it, Also seems more like a airflow management issue with the cooling system then a egr issue. So unless someone wiser then these two guys says otherwise I am deleting all egr stuff in the process. Also read about still having a cel with everything plugged up and deleted out, What low cost tunes are out there until I get the funds back up for a proper tune, just want to loose the light for the egr no power gains. Lastly, Another head gasket question. I know about the circles but I have read that the top of the gasket has stamped info saying thickness. I have a borescope I scoped it very well from front to back, one hole in the front and back. Around cylinder three nothing on top or underneath. Cleaned it with cleaner and notta, Has it been replaced before? I am assuming I need zero holes but I am not sure this gasket is original. Sorry for the long first post and all the questions. Been reading so long I am about burnt out lol. Thanks for the knowledge already learned and the future knowledge.


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 Post subject: Re: New to the forum, Head gasket questions....Well lots mor
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:07 am 
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It would take pages to describe all the bad information you've been given, and why it's bad.

It's probably a good thing that you plan on doing the head gasket first. That would also include the timing belt kit with water pump replacement.

Head gaskets are MLS (Multi Layer Steel), Most everything you describe for your plan of things to upgrade on this job are on the correct path.
You said it may have been replaced before, and that you could find no holes.
If that is all true, I'd put odds on it's also why the head gasket is leaking. Too thin, the sleeve contact with the head will prevent adequate clamping pressure to keep the gasket from sealing. "Too thick" (from our list of choices) is harmless, as proper sealing pressure will still be applied to the full gasket, but I still recommend measuring the projection on your engine and getting the proper gasket. If you are right on the border, go thicker, not thinner. If you are in a hurry to order your stuff before starting work, go with 2 holes. If you are worried about compression ratio, don't. It won't be effected or have any affect on power.

Good choice with the ARP bolts. Make sure you read up about proper installation procedure, especially with torque procedures and application of lubricant. It really does matter.

EGR can be completely removed with Weeks 1&2. Highly recommended mod.
Free tunes exist that eliminate the trouble codes. None of the "bad things" you list truly apply.
IF you cannot afford the weeks stuff right now, you can pretty much achieve similar effect by removing the butterfly valve and screws from the flow control valve, and installing a blockoff plate on the EGR. This does not solve the coolant leak potential from that EGR mess, but it does keep more soot out of the intake. Since there are no true throttle valves on diesels, the situation with spark ignited engines that requires blowoff valves does not exist with this engine.

All that stuff about EGR affecting engine temps is bunk. If you have operating temp issues, either put on a new OEM (Behr) thermostat, or save up and upgrade to an HDS-001. It's expensive, but there is nothing better.

You may not think of this as an engine mod, but I assure you, it very much is, and arguably, the most important one you can make. It completely eliminates a whole host of potential driveability problems, and is a huge help when troubleshooting.
If it does not already have an in-tank fuel lift pump, drain and pull your tank and install one. If you don't, you will very likely in the near future, wish you had. Also gives you a chance to check if there's any gunk in the tank. Use good fuel filters and change them at least every other oil change or so.

May all go well with your endeavor, and if you have any problems or questions, ask!

edited for spelling and clarity

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 Post subject: Re: New to the forum, Head gasket questions....Well lots mor
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:56 am 
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Welcome, you have come to the right place, lots of willing and very good knowledgeable help on this forum!
To add to Gordon's good advice.
First read through the CRD NOOB guide at least a couple of times, lots of very good information for a new owner.
> viewtopic.php?f=5&t=54207

Appears you are on the right track as to the head gasket, cam belt, and head testing. Only thing I would add, when you pull the head, replace all the exhaust valves. Several on this forum have reported breaking an exhaust valve around the milage you stated and when this happens, the damage can be catastrophic since this is an interference engine.
It can be super ugly and get very expensive and / or take out the whole engine! :grim:

As to the bad EGR misinformation you were given by a couple of crd guys; it was a bunch of bull. Trust this forum for the correct information on these vehicles as most mechanics even the dealer ones don't have a clue about the unique nuances of this engine.

The EGR system CAN be totally removed or at least rendered inoperative. Many owners have done this including myself many years ago!
The FCV is simply there to create a low pressure zone for the EGR system to dump exhaust into the intake system which is VERY bad on the engine internals. It serves no run-a-way control as some might suggest.
The EGR systems causes premature wear on the engine as it loads the oil with soot and creates large amounts of soot buildup in the intake manifold where it mixes with the oil vapors coming from the CCV system to the point of greatly choking or restricting the airflow off entering the head. :(

To totally remove the EGR system: the Weeks elbow kit gets rid of the EGR valve, EGR cooler, and FCV (flow control valve) and allows you to delete all the associated coolant lines to/from the EGR cooler. (potential coolant leaks) >SasquatchParts.com

Just to block off the EGR system: simply add a EGR block off plate between the EGR exhaust feed line the EGR Valve and remove the butterfly out of the FCV. (see below)
For details see these two threads:
> viewtopic.php?f=5&t=76576
> viewtopic.php?f=5&t=76576

Image
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Last edited by WWDiesel on Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: New to the forum, Head gasket questions....Well lots mor
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:40 pm 
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One more thing, take pictures. Lots of pictures, from many viewpoints. Before you disconnect, move, or remove something, take a pic. Having that resource will make a huge difference to how fast things go back together.

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cams
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GM 12611872
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 Post subject: Re: New to the forum, Head gasket questions....Well lots mor
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:03 pm 
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GordnadoCRD wrote:
One more thing, take pictures. Lots of pictures, from many viewpoints. Before you disconnect, move, or remove something, take a pic. Having that resource will make a huge difference to how fast things go back together.

Label all the harness connectors on the top of the engine before you disconnect.
Label all 4 injectors so they go back in the right holes.

Some tips for identifying a EGR cooler leak or head gasket leak or cracked head:

EGR cooler:
Use a cooling system pressure tester to pressurize the cooling system.
Loosen or remove the EGR pipe that goes from the intake elbow to the EGR.
Only loosen the EGR end of the pipe. Two small bolts.
Look for water dripping out.
(note: this could also be a source of soot in the coolant)

Head gasket:
Use a cooling system pressure tester to pressurize the cooling system.
Remove all 4 glow plugs.
Unplug all 4 injectors
Crank the engine and look for water shooting out the glow plug holes.

Cracked head:
As you proceed with engine disassembly, try to keep as much of the cooling system connected as possible.
Remove turbo and exhaust manifold.
Top off with water and pressurize.
Watch for water pooling or dripping out of the exhaust ports.

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 Post subject: Re: New to the forum, Head gasket questions....Well lots mor
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:34 pm 
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Thanks for all the help gentleman, I am going to order all the parts this weekend. I would love to add the weeks 2 kit but trying to stay in budget, Maybe down the road. Just want to delete as much nonsense as possible with little money spent.

Gordnado, Are you saying I can go thicker with out any worry to fitment? I am not really worried about performance lost, I prefer to be safe then sorry. With that said even if its is a true zero hole factory gasket I would prefer to run I little thicker if it makes no difference. You are also right about a lift pump and I forgot to mention I have already bought one from auto zone for $88 that is made for the crd liberty. I have yet to drop tank (3/4 full)and get it wired in, I heard its a direct plug in play just have to find and swap a pin or two. Not really a big deal, I am very well experienced with a power probe.

WWDiesel, I Have one question for you as you brought up the FCV. It might be on here somewhere but I am not very computer competent on searching for stuff, Anyhow. Does the FCV also act as a shutter valve? Does it aid in smooth shut down? I was planning on doing the tap and plug on the manifolds verses block off plates that way I could get all that excess crap out from under engine bay.

Lots of good tips from everyone thanks all.
One last question before I get back to work "lunch break" I understand the inner workings of vgt turbos pretty well, That said I don't believe my vines are correctly closing all the way. What is normal vacuum our pumps produce? what is the idle vacuum I should expect to see on the turbo side of the wastegate actuator? I am seeing 22psi on system everywhere but to the actuator and 16 there, When I put vacuum pump on actuator and just listen to the exhaust straight pipe and add vacuum till it sounds right I am right around 24psi. Has a nice even mellow turbo sound. Without boost gauge I am not going to worry much but was just curious.


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 Post subject: Re: New to the forum, Head gasket questions....Well lots mor
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:18 pm 
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pruitt1222 wrote:
Thanks for all the help gentleman, I am going to order all the parts this weekend. I would love to add the weeks 2 kit but trying to stay in budget, Maybe down the road. Just want to delete as much nonsense as possible with little money spent.

Gordnado, Are you saying I can go thicker with out any worry to fitment? I am not really worried about performance lost, I prefer to be safe then sorry. With that said even if its is a true zero hole factory gasket I would prefer to run I little thicker if it makes no difference. You are also right about a lift pump and I forgot to mention I have already bought one from auto zone for $88 that is made for the crd liberty. I have yet to drop tank (3/4 full)and get it wired in, I heard its a direct plug in play just have to find and swap a pin or two. Not really a big deal, I am very well experienced with a power probe.

No such thing, unfortunately. No in-tank fuel pump was ever designed to directly fit the CRD Liberty. You likely purchased a "universal" fuel pump that is not designed to fit inside of the tank. It may or may not work, but you need to find out the output pressure before you proceed or you will do a LOT of damage to your high pressure fuel pump (CP3). I would recommend going this route...https://shop.sasquatchparts.com/product ... 5143160aa/ as it is an almost direct fit, it only requires the float arms to be swapped and a small tab to be cut off the top. You can make your own harness (I did) or buy a premade one from that same website.

EDIT: Hmm, I think I see what you were looking at. Can someone confirm that this is an actual pump and not just a sending unit? I'm suspicious, considering it is listed as direct fit for the CRD.

https://www.autozone.com/external-engin ... 47_0_20966


WWDiesel, I Have one question for you as you brought up the FCV. It might be on here somewhere but I am not very computer competent on searching for stuff, Anyhow. Does the FCV also act as a shutter valve? Does it aid in smooth shut down? I was planning on doing the tap and plug on the manifolds verses block off plates that way I could get all that excess crap out from under engine bay.

Lots of good tips from everyone thanks all.
One last question before I get back to work "lunch break" I understand the inner workings of vgt turbos pretty well, That said I don't believe my vines are correctly closing all the way. What is normal vacuum our pumps produce? what is the idle vacuum I should expect to see on the turbo side of the wastegate actuator? I am seeing 22psi on system everywhere but to the actuator and 16 there, When I put vacuum pump on actuator and just listen to the exhaust straight pipe and add vacuum till it sounds right I am right around 24psi. Has a nice even mellow turbo sound. Without boost gauge I am not going to worry much but was just curious.

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 Post subject: Re: New to the forum, Head gasket questions....Well lots mor
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:33 pm 
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APC9199 wrote:
pruitt1222 wrote:
Thanks for all the help gentleman, I am going to order all the parts this weekend. I would love to add the weeks 2 kit but trying to stay in budget, Maybe down the road. Just want to delete as much nonsense as possible with little money spent.

Gordnado, Are you saying I can go thicker with out any worry to fitment? I am not really worried about performance lost, I prefer to be safe then sorry. With that said even if its is a true zero hole factory gasket I would prefer to run I little thicker if it makes no difference. You are also right about a lift pump and I forgot to mention I have already bought one from auto zone for $88 that is made for the crd liberty. I have yet to drop tank (3/4 full)and get it wired in, I heard its a direct plug in play just have to find and swap a pin or two. Not really a big deal, I am very well experienced with a power probe.

No such thing, unfortunately. No in-tank fuel pump was ever designed to directly fit the CRD Liberty. You likely purchased a "universal" fuel pump that is not designed to fit inside of the tank. It may or may not work, but you need to find out the output pressure before you proceed or you will do a LOT of damage to your high pressure fuel pump (CP3). I would recommend going this route...https://shop.sasquatchparts.com/product ... 5143160aa/ as it is an almost direct fit, it only requires the float arms to be swapped and a small tab to be cut off the top. You can make your own harness (I did) or buy a premade one from that same website.

EDIT: Hmm, I think I see what you were looking at. Can someone confirm that this is an actual pump and not just a sending unit? I'm suspicious, considering it is listed as direct fit for the CRD.

https://www.autozone.com/external-engin ... 47_0_20966




Thats the one, I aint home or I would look at it. It may honsetly just be a sending unit.


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 Post subject: Re: New to the forum, Head gasket questions....Well lots mor
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:04 pm 
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pruitt1222 wrote:
One last question before I get back to work "lunch break" I understand the inner workings of vgt turbos pretty well, That said I don't believe my vines are correctly closing all the way. What is normal vacuum our pumps produce? what is the idle vacuum I should expect to see on the turbo side of the wastegate actuator? I am seeing 22psi on system everywhere but to the actuator and 16 there, When I put vacuum pump on actuator and just listen to the exhaust straight pipe and add vacuum till it sounds right I am right around 24psi. Has a nice even mellow turbo sound. Without boost gauge I am not going to worry much but was just curious.

There are two vacuum solenoids that control vacuum to the turbo.
The ECU modulates vacuum through the solenoid to adjust "boost" pressure.
Boost pressure is measured by the MAP sensor on top of the intake manifold.
Typical max boost is about 22psi with a stock tune.

IDK exactly what measured vacuum should be to the turbo actuator.
All I know is that vacuum should be HIGH when at idle.
HIGH vacuum = high boost.
LOW vacuum = low boost.

(note: even though while at idle boost is set to high, there is not enough exhaust flow to produce any actual "boost" pressure)

If you have the engine running at idle you can see the function of the turbo actuator.
Just pull the vacuum line off and watch the arm drop.
Reconnect it and watch the arm pull up.

If you want to see what its like to have no boost, pull the vacuum line off (LOW vacuum) and go for a drive.
Power will be reduced and you will get a p0299 underboost code.
If you want to bypass the vacuum solenoids (HIGH vacuum) and drive with full boost, you wont get very far before the engine goes into limp mode and a overboost code is set.

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 Post subject: Re: New to the forum, Head gasket questions....Well lots mor
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:05 pm 
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pruitt1222 wrote:
Gordnado, Are you saying I can go thicker with out any worry to fitment? I am not really worried about performance lost, I prefer to be safe then sorry. With that said even if its is a true zero hole factory gasket I would prefer to run I little thicker if it makes no difference.

That is correct. It's safe to go thicker if there's any question.

Regarding the in tank pumps, pruitt1222 is correct, there was never any in-tank pump factory installed in the Liberty CRD. However, virtually any mopar diesel unit will fit with minor modifications. The one I installed is from 2006 Ram 3500 with Cummins. Also correct, the sasquatch pump unit and loom system is the closest you will ever find to plug and play. There are threads that outline in detail how to modify your own existing loom to work.

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'06 Lbrty Sprt CRD 150K

Sasquatch
DSS Turbo
CAT-elimntr
Weeks Stg1&2 EGRfix
PV-200
BLING
vent gauges

IDParts
head
cams
rockers
Timing set
ARP studs
eTn1 GX2123 5v GPs

YETI Custom Tune
Flowmaster 8325508
Carter P76611M
GM 12611872
Hayden 2986
GM 15976889
PATC Custom Billet
2010 Ram Hemi Trans
Sonnax 44957
Transgo kit
Cooper 51770


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 Post subject: Re: New to the forum, Head gasket questions....Well lots mor
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:20 pm 
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The fuel thing from autozone is NOT a fuel pump. It is only the tank housing, the motor (of a fuel pump) is not installed in that. You can see in the image it only has 2 wires even though it has 4 prongs in the connector. The two wires are for the level sender only.

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 Post subject: Re: New to the forum, Head gasket questions....Well lots mor
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:50 pm 
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geordi wrote:
The fuel thing from autozone is NOT a fuel pump. It is only the tank housing, the motor (of a fuel pump) is not installed in that. You can see in the image it only has 2 wires even though it has 4 prongs in the connector. The two wires are for the level sender only.


You are correct, Just got a chance to look at it. It is just a pickup.

flash7210 wrote:
pruitt1222 wrote:
One last question before I get back to work "lunch break" I understand the inner workings of vgt turbos pretty well, That said I don't believe my vines are correctly closing all the way. What is normal vacuum our pumps produce? what is the idle vacuum I should expect to see on the turbo side of the wastegate actuator? I am seeing 22psi on system everywhere but to the actuator and 16 there, When I put vacuum pump on actuator and just listen to the exhaust straight pipe and add vacuum till it sounds right I am right around 24psi. Has a nice even mellow turbo sound. Without boost gauge I am not going to worry much but was just curious.

There are two vacuum solenoids that control vacuum to the turbo.
The ECU modulates vacuum through the solenoid to adjust "boost" pressure.
Boost pressure is measured by the MAP sensor on top of the intake manifold.
Typical max boost is about 22psi with a stock tune.

IDK exactly what measured vacuum should be to the turbo actuator.
All I know is that vacuum should be HIGH when at idle.
HIGH vacuum = high boost.
LOW vacuum = low boost.

(note: even though while at idle boost is set to high, there is not enough exhaust flow to produce any actual "boost" pressure)

If you have the engine running at idle you can see the function of the turbo actuator.
Just pull the vacuum line off and watch the arm drop.
Reconnect it and watch the arm pull up.

If you want to see what its like to have no boost, pull the vacuum line off (LOW vacuum) and go for a drive.
Power will be reduced and you will get a p0299 underboost code.
If you want to bypass the vacuum solenoids (HIGH vacuum) and drive with full boost, you wont get very far before the engine goes into limp mode and a overboost code is set.


Thumbs up, I was just curious since I am stright piped I have the thump thump thump, Not the hess or whistle of a turbo at idle. I assume I have a bad solenoid or actuator out of adjustment. Just trying to pin point it.

I am slowly understanding the basics of this little engine, Not a cummins or a tdi be close, As for the FCV. It does also soften the shut down. All you have to do is turn off with pluged then unpluged and its noticeable. This is about like the shutter valve on 04-present tdi's, its done to be easier on older timing belts. Slowly answering my own questions lol, Thanks for everyones input. Tonight I shell order lots of parts.


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 Post subject: Re: New to the forum, Head gasket questions....Well lots mor
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:49 pm 
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The FCV "may" be programmed to close when the key is turned off, but that is not its primary function. Just like in the TDI, there are a LOT of misconceptions and misinformation out there (put forth by the manufacturer in many cases) to try and keep people from messing with this and retain the emission equipment in the vehicle. The FCV is purely part of the emissions equipment, it is programmed primarily to close as part of the EGR flow function. If the computer does not detect sufficient flow reduction across the MAF when the EGR is called for, it commands the FCV to close. If the flow from the MAF does not reduce, it commands further closure, to force even more suction on the EGR tube. If it STILL does not detect the MAF flow reduction, then it gives up and throws the EGR Insufficient Flow code.

The vehicle cuts fuel instantly when the key is turned off. That is why combustion stops, and there is beyond sufficient air volume in the intake manifold to support the engine continuing to rotate until inertial drag stops it. As has been suggested on the TDI groups about the ASV, the FCV cannot close fast enough to create any kind of a "vacuum" in the intake before the pistons stop on the first compression stroke. THAT is why the engine stops quickly - compression pressure in one cylinder without having power in another cylinder. The TDI is the same way.

If you wanted to stop the engine with a vacuum in the intake, the FCV would have to close BEFORE the fuel was cut off (admittedly this would be difficult to observe) but the result would be a significant suction "whoosh" when the FCV relaxed after the power was cut and it reopened. There is no such noise.

There is also a high probability that the plastic gearbox of the FCV has already stripped, or certainly will soon enough - as most CRDs have only a grinding noise on shutdown from that thing, if they still have it, and the CRD stops perfectly fine without the EGR or FCV installed - I personally know of nearly 100 of them and none have had any issues after deletion of the FCV.


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 Post subject: Re: New to the forum, Head gasket questions....Well lots mor
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:22 pm 
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Oh no, I am not worried about it. I actually just monkeyed with it, Believe it or not at least to my wife's and my ears is does make shut down sound a little smoother. With that said I took the butterfly and screws out thought, While I had it out I drilled and taped for boost gauge. Was running low much like I was thinking only pushing 14psi, Pulled overflow and heat shield and adjusted the actuator now getting 19-20ish. Has a little boost flutter but to my disbelief no wobble or play in shaft. The adjustment took care of the exhaust thump thump thump, Now have a very faint hess with whistle with a burp of the throttle. Slowly figuring it out. Gonna clean up after I warm up a bit and order parts, yay!


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 Post subject: Re: New to the forum, Head gasket questions....Well lots mor
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:35 pm 
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The FCV did act as a shutter valve on shut down, but is not needed. Makes very little difference!
If you removed the butterfly out of the FCV be sure you blank off the EGR feed tube. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: New to the forum, Head gasket questions....Well lots mor
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:28 am 
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Adjustment of the turbo is generally ill-advised, but whatever you do, please ensure that the turbo does not spike above 26psi. Above that point, and you are outside the safety limit for the shaft and risking turbo shaft separation.

Be careful out there.

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 Post subject: Re: New to the forum, Head gasket questions....Well lots mor
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:52 am 
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geordi wrote:
Adjustment of the turbo is generally ill-advised, but whatever you do, please ensure that the turbo does not spike above 26psi. Above that point, and you are outside the safety limit for the shaft and risking turbo shaft separation.
Be careful out there.

Yes, be very careful, if you exceed the upper limit of the MAP sensor with boost pressure, the ECM/PCM will go into "LIMP" mode. :juggle:

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