HELP!!! Geordi?? Possible Blown Head Gasket

BrianUnderwood · **Posted:** Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:25 pm

Hey guys, the CRD just hit 200k and now has a possible blown head gasket...

Started towing my boat up a hill, temp gauge slams to H and starts alarming. I pull over ASAP, turn on the heater, open the hood, and notice all the coolant is gone. I let it cool down, put more coolant in, then limp home, never overheating again. Never put out any codes. Now the coolant is becoming pressurized whenever the engine is on (indicating blown head gasket).

Sound like a head gasket? What's the likelihood of cracked block?

I've got a good mechanic that's willing to take on the job, just not sure if it's worth it...

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK · **Joined:** Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:29 pm **Posts:** 1167

Private message sent, BrianUnderwood.

Best regards,

Jeff

rancherman · **Posted:** Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:51 am

Possible blown HG; Yes
Possible cracked ( X,Y or Z) (Block, liner(s), head) yes. Only way to know, is to pull her apart.
Deck surface, which includes the condition of the liner. ( how much they stick out, and sealing condition of the gasket mating surfaces of the liner) needs checked.
Your cylinder head was probably due for new exhaust valves anyway..

Pull your dipstick. what's the oil look like? nice and black, or is it milkshake frothy? greyish to whiteish in color? That may let you know just how far the collateral damage went.
antifreeze in bearings for any length of time isn't good..

If you are showing milkshake oil, the possibility of cracked liners BELOW the rings (when piston is centered in the block) is also a possibility. (not the only place coolant gets into the oil) but must be checked regardless. The only time you'll see the crack is when piston is all the way down. Even then, the crack could be just below the top of the piston, but still above the rings. Impossible to see in an assembled engine.

a REALLY overheated diesel can and will cause piston scuffing.
When the head is off, look down- bore along the thrust sides for 'dullness' or discoloring of the cylinder wall.
This is common in a really overheated engine;

Sometimes, when the piston is all the way down in it's stroke, the skirts can be seen from underneath (oil pan removed) and the damage is visible from below.
When facing a known overheated engine, just fixing the cause of the loss of coolant is only part of the 'fix'. Not saying any of this did happen to yours, but prudent to verify it DIDN'T happen!

I'll add, the 'fix' depends on what you really want out of your Jeep.. Short term gig, or another trip to the moon?
Me, I'm already 4k into fixing a vehicle I paid 13k for only 4 yrs ago.. that if sold in perfect running condition tomorrow would bring 5-6k?? I'm not doing it for the NEXT owner!! I'm doing it for ME!
But on the other hand, I could go down to the dealer, and plunk down 25k on a newer 'good used' vehicle that was someone else's problem!!

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:05 pm

I'm here and talking with Brian, his CRD had ARP studs in it and most of the other reliability mods. It did NOT have a replaced head gasket and I do not recall if it had previously experienced any coolant bottle pressure or low coolant alarms before the studs were installed. At the moment, I suspect that the fan clutch had failed (very common) and with the extreme conditions of towing on steep hills, the engine may have worked itself into exposing either a mismatched head gasket thickness from the factory, OR possibly a cracked cylinder.

Until his engine is disassembled we won't have a complete idea of what happened, but the cold engine test right now is a complete fail - massive pressure after 30 seconds of idling. That is not a good sign at all, BUT it could still be a cracked liner if the engine overheated after pushing the water out or if it was somehow using the wrong coolant. Right now the next steps are to get the engine disassembled and test the head for possible warping or cracking, test the injectors to see if they maybe overfueled the cylinders, and inspect the cylinder liners for possible cracking. Much work ahead.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:07 pm

BrianUnderwood wrote:

Hey guys, the CRD just hit 200k and now has a possible blown head gasket...
Started towing my boat up a hill, temp gauge slams to H and starts alarming. I pull over ASAP, turn on the heater, open the hood, and notice all the coolant is gone. I let it cool down, put more coolant in, then limp home, never overheating again. Never put out any codes. Now the coolant is becoming pressurized whenever the engine is on (indicating blown head gasket).
Sound like a head gasket? What's the likelihood of cracked block?
I've got a good mechanic that's willing to take on the job, just not sure if it's worth it...

Is it worth it? Only if you really like the vehicle and plan to keep it for the long haul. A question that only you can answer. :juggle:

A few perident questions,
How long ago were the studs installed? (if known and by whom)
If you know who did them, you could go back and ask what all was done to engine when the studs were installed and why.
was it done to stop an HG leak before?
and, is this the first one of record failing with studs already installed?

Very interested in what is found as the exact leak point.
Was there any coolant found in the oil?

I got a complete good engine I am trying to sell, but I am a looong way from CA! :roll:

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:17 pm

Following with interest for all the previously stated reasons (questions) plus others

geordi · **Posted:** Tue Jul 31, 2018 1:30 am

WWDiesel wrote:

A few perident questions,
How long ago were the studs installed? (if known and by whom)
If you know who did them, you could go back and ask what all was done to engine when the studs were installed and why.
was it done to stop an HG leak before?
and, is this the first one of record failing with studs already installed?

Very interested in what is found as the exact leak point.
Was there any coolant found in the oil?

I got a complete good engine I am trying to sell, but I am a looong way from CA! :roll:

I can answer most of those:
I installed the studs, in 2015 IIRC.
The list of what was done to the engine was the usual list that we suggest here: Studs, rockers, elbow kit, glow plugs, timing kit and water pump. I don't remember if we did the glow plugs, but I usually do, so that is likely already done.

I do not remember if there had already been coolant alarms indicating that the head gasket leaks had already started, or if this was preventative. To date, I am aware of only two other failures with studs already installed. One was on an engine that had already had a leak detected via oil analysis (no coolant alarm) and the owner elected to try just installing studs rather than digging into the engine completely, and got several more years before the leak resurfaced on the analysis. It has subsequently been resolved with a new head gasket. The other failure was a cracked cylinder liner, on one of RacerTracer's CRDs. He'd have to illuminate more about that, I don't know the details.

I do not know for certain if there is any coolant in the oil (I have asked and Brian hasn't gotten back to me yet) and the exact leak point for the coolant seems to be the overflow port in the bottle... So there is combustion pressure escaping into the water jacket - I am very curious as well as to what could have happened. I'm working with Brian remotely to figure out a plan and will update as there is information. I strongly suspect something else may have transpired, this engine has been solid for years now and of course there are many dozens of others out there that have no issues after getting the studs. More discovery is needed.

TKB4 · **Posted:** Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:09 am

Bad deal no matter what it turns out.

I bought one really for body parts because it had been overheated and they had already had a lot of stealership repairs etc.
When I removed intake imagine my surprise when it was clean as a whistle just like it had just come out of a parts washer actually even better. I assume it was steam cleaned when it overheated !!! It runs now though so didn't hurt anything major terribly bad, I was worried about the pistons but they looked ok.

BrianUnderwood · **Posted:** Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:47 am

Sorry for the late reply guys!

So, the studs/rockers were all preventative, because I was planning on having the stupid jeep "forever".

It only overheated for about 10-20 seconds before I pulled over and let her rest (twice), but then I finished a 200 mile trip towing my boat while adding coolant every 25 miles.

There looks to be absolutely ZERO coolant in the oil, and the crd fires right up and sounds like it would happily drive anywhere, aside from the system being clearly over pressurized.

I bought a big booty Dodge Cummins 5.9L to use for now and will likely be tearing the CRD down in the next week or so. If there's cracked sleeves, I'm out and the jeep will be going to Craigslist or Pick-n-pull. If it's just a head gasket, I'll build her back up (with a few upgrades of course) and keep on truckin'! And then sell the giant truck...

BrianUnderwood · **Posted:** Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:14 pm

For sale now. Decided to move on.

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/cto/6687683979.html

TKB4 · **Posted:** Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:06 pm

I am still very interested to know what caused the problem . T he craigslist post was removed. If its not sold you may want to repost etc

blittle1027 · **Joined:** Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:03 pm **Posts:** 3

Hey guys,
I'm kind of in the same spot with the same question. I'm new to the KJ world, my fiance has one, so I've become the incumbent to fix all the issues. Cars are somewhat to foreign to me, though, only have had motorcycles for the past 5+ years and haven't wrenched a car in forever.

Was going out of town about a week ago and had some issues on a mountain grade where the temp gauge was climbing, but it was 100 degrees on a steep mountain with AC on; didn't think anything of it.

Turned the AC off, after about 20 minutes temp was back to normal. I was looking at it last night, while riding behind her and noticed a decent amount of white smoke. Got home, checked the coolant which was low. Filled it about a month ago, though, so that was odd. Drove it for about a mile and the temp was instantly in the hot. Flicked the AC off, temp gauge dropped around 30 degrees in less than a minute. Didn't get to pay any more attention to it, since we had a tire blow out right then, haha.

Waited for it to cool off when I got home, took the overflow cap off, no oil residue and didn't appear to be excess pressure when the cap was off and vehicle running. I'm a rookie though and forgot to check the oil dipstick for milkshaki-ness since it was about 1 in the morning and I was tired, ha. I did just do a change about 1500 miles ago and it was fine, while she's had the white smoke issue for over a year, just never this bad.

I know there's a TSB for the ECU on these models, 2005 in particular, where the temp gauge can have improper readings and do massive swings like that. Was going to have someone flash the ECU. At this point, I'm basically unsure if the two issues are related. I know my first step is to double check the dipstick, but with no back pressure in the coolant tank, I'm thinking it's two different issues and how fast the temp gauge is fluctuating, I don't think it's an accurate reading.
Anyone have anything else to check besides the dipstick next?
Edit: Checked dipstick. Normal appearance. Oil is about the same level as when I filled it at the last oil change, so don't think coolant is getting in.
I'm thinking EGR cooler is leaking coolant in to the exhaust manifold and causing the white smoke. Is there any way to test for this?

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:56 am

blittle1027 wrote:

Hey guys,
I'm kind of in the same spot with the same question. I'm new to the KJ world, my fiance has one, so I've become the incumbent to fix all the issues. Cars are somewhat to foreign to me, though, only have had motorcycles for the past 5+ years and haven't wrenched a car in forever.
Was going out of town about a week ago and had some issues on a mountain grade where the temp gauge was climbing, but it was 100 degrees on a steep mountain with AC on; didn't think anything of it.
Turned the AC off, after about 20 minutes temp was back to normal. I was looking at it last night, while riding behind her and noticed a decent amount of white smoke. Got home, checked the coolant which was low. Filled it about a month ago, though, so that was odd. Drove it for about a mile and the temp was instantly in the hot. Flicked the AC off, temp gauge dropped around 30 degrees in less than a minute. Didn't get to pay any more attention to it, since we had a tire blow out right then, haha.
Waited for it to cool off when I got home, took the overflow cap off, no oil residue and didn't appear to be excess pressure when the cap was off and vehicle running. I'm a rookie though and forgot to check the oil dipstick for milkshaki-ness since it was about 1 in the morning and I was tired, ha. I did just do a change about 1500 miles ago and it was fine, while she's had the white smoke issue for over a year, just never this bad.
I know there's a TSB for the ECU on these models, 2005 in particular, where the temp gauge can have improper readings and do massive swings like that. Was going to have someone flash the ECU. At this point, I'm basically unsure if the two issues are related. I know my first step is to double check the dipstick, but with no back pressure in the coolant tank, I'm thinking it's two different issues and how fast the temp gauge is fluctuating, I don't think it's an accurate reading.
Anyone have anything else to check besides the dipstick next?
Edit: Checked dipstick. Normal appearance. Oil is about the same level as when I filled it at the last oil change, so don't think coolant is getting in.
I'm thinking EGR cooler is leaking coolant in to the exhaust manifold and causing the white smoke. Is there any way to test for this?

You can make a simple block off plate for the EGR exhaust feed tube out of some thin sheet metal or the lid of soup or vegetable can.
See this thread for details:> viewtopic.php?p=804565#p804565

Once you get an EGR block off plate installed, you can disconnect both 5/8 coolant hoses going/from the EGR cooler and plug them. This will eliminate the EGR cooler as the leak.

But with it trying to run hot as you described, I suspect you may have other issues like maybe a leaking head gasket?

This is a good test to try after the vehicle sets overnight and is at ambient temperature.

WWDiesel wrote:

Normal temperature for a Jeep CRD is 176 degrees F. see picture below
There is UV dye available for the coolant at most auto parts stores. But it is only good if you are leaking coolant somewhere on the outside of the engine.
IF you are loosing coolant and see no leaks or drips anywhere, you may have a head gasket leak. Coolant is being consumed in combustion chamber and going out exhaust pipe.

Test for HG leak:
Engine at ambient temperature after setting overnight.
Remove coolant reservoir cap to ensure no pressure or vacuum is present and fully reinstall coolant reservoir cap.
Start engine and let it idle for about 30 to 40 seconds.
Cut engine off
Slowly open coolant tank cap and listen real closely to hear if any pressure build up in tank was present or escapes.
If you hear pressure escaping when you remove cap, you have a head gasket leak or worse yet a cracked head. :grim:

rancherman · **Posted:** Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:19 pm

Agree W/ WWdiesel.
eliminate any outer-block leaks first, then see where you stand on the heating issue.
Steam coming out the tail pipe isn't good. I'm surprised you don't have to refill it more often.

You may want to start your own thread on this.

flash7210 · **Posted:** Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:24 pm

Quote:

I'm thinking EGR cooler is leaking coolant in to the exhaust manifold and causing the white smoke. Is there any way to test for this?

Loosen the bolts on the lower egr tube leading to intake elbow.
If water comes out, your egr cooler is leaking.

It helps to have a cooling system pressure tester when hunting for leaks.

blittle1027 · **Joined:** Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:03 pm **Posts:** 3

Thanks for the help guys. I bought her a new Cruze for the temporary until I can diagnose the Jeep, at which point I'll take the Cruze back. Don't want to get rid of the CRD, so hey. Good option until I have time. I'm going to loosen the EGR bolts and see what's going on with that this weekend if I can get time (hard to find time when you work 80ish hours a week, along with being a student ha).
That's still where my train of thought is going. It hasn't overheated again since I refilled it and having no other symptoms other than excess white smoke.
The oil is still clean, even drained a little from the pan and checked it. Viscosity doesn't seem too thin, either and oil level isn't changing. Renting a pressure tester if I have allotted time and we'll see where we can get.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:21 pm

blittle1027 wrote:

Thanks for the help guys. I bought her a new Cruze for the temporary until I can diagnose the Jeep, at which point I'll take the Cruze back. Don't want to get rid of the CRD, so hey. Good option until I have time. I'm going to loosen the EGR bolts and see what's going on with that this weekend if I can get time (hard to find time when you work 80ish hours a week, along with being a student ha).
That's still where my train of thought is going. It hasn't overheated again since I refilled it and having no other symptoms other than excess white smoke.
The oil is still clean, even drained a little from the pan and checked it. Viscosity doesn't seem too thin, either and oil level isn't changing. Renting a pressure tester if I have allotted time and we'll see where we can get.

A leaking head gasket most times never shows up as coolant in the oil.
The coolant leaks into the combustion chamber and is consumed by the combustion process and exits out the exhaust tail pipe. :cry:

flash7210 · **Posted:** Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:30 pm

WWDiesel wrote:

blittle1027 wrote:

Thanks for the help guys. I bought her a new Cruze for the temporary until I can diagnose the Jeep, at which point I'll take the Cruze back. Don't want to get rid of the CRD, so hey. Good option until I have time. I'm going to loosen the EGR bolts and see what's going on with that this weekend if I can get time (hard to find time when you work 80ish hours a week, along with being a student ha).
That's still where my train of thought is going. It hasn't overheated again since I refilled it and having no other symptoms other than excess white smoke.
The oil is still clean, even drained a little from the pan and checked it. Viscosity doesn't seem too thin, either and oil level isn't changing. Renting a pressure tester if I have allotted time and we'll see where we can get.

A leaking head gasket most times never shows up as coolant in the oil.
The coolant leaks into the combustion chamber and is consumed by the combustion process and exits out the exhaust tail pipe. :cry:

In the crankcase, no.
At least, not without actually dropping the oil pan and inspecting.
In my case, with my cracked head, the CCV on top of the valve cover had a small amount of dark gray sludge in it. Evidence of coolant mixed with oil.

geordi · **Posted:** Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:59 pm

I'm the traveling CRD tech that the original poster of this thread was calling on - if you would like my assistance on yours, that can be arranged as well. I think you are on the right track to diagnosing the problem, the cold engine test that WWdiesel posted is the primary test that I developed to help people check if they have an impending head gasket leak. From your description, I do think you have a head leak. Please try the cold engine test as described and see what result you get.

Unfortunately just running with the cap open isn't a good idea and doesn't help, the bottle is an active participant in the coolant loop and air entry will cause steam in the water system, which will create pressure and drive the water out. This is a "wet sleeve" engine and having proper coolant levels are imperative to avoiding cracking a cylinder liner or causing catastrophic head warping from localized overheating. The right coolant is also VERY important, are you using an HOAT coolant such as Zerex G-05 or Ford Motorcraft Gold? The so-called "universal" coolants are ANYTHING BUT, and anything that is green is just a terrible idea. Incorrect coolant use can cause a chemical reaction that results in jello or cottage cheese in the cooling system... Really bad news and a pain in the arse to clean out.

blittle1027 · **Joined:** Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:03 pm **Posts:** 3

Currently running zerex g-05.
Previous owner was her grandfather, whom I pretty sure he always ran properly. Car has 100k miles, with 40k being towed cross country behind their rv. He also bought it as a normal Liberty and paid a pretty penny to have the dealership order the diesel crate motor and did full swap of everything needed. Nearly 20k. Still unsure his reasoning but if he was willing to do that I'm pretty sure it's been maintained well.
Did the ambient temperature test and got no hissing. I'm going to remove the glow plugs and see if I can find any evidence on Sunday.

HELP!!! Geordi?? Possible Blown Head Gasket

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