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What is your mass flow data for looking at rocker health?
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=89109		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Sir Sam [ Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:53 pm ]
Post subject:  What is your mass flow data for looking at rocker health?
Never saw good correlated data, it would be nice to build a nominal curve of some kind, but there is a huge variation between all our jeeps.

Can anyone contributed readings to build a curve? Ideally we would have data for new engines with perfect rockers at sea level (in a frictionless void!), but we will have to settle for owner contributed data.

DRBIII only reports flow as sensor volts, so all the aftermarket units are somehow reporting it as flow, since I have both I will include data for both. Maybe build it into a google docs spreadsheet? I could also do some testing on my own using the set RPM command to hold 700 rpm, 800rpm, 900rpm etc to record more consistent data to get a better map of my own engine to share or of the sensor voltage.


Sir Sam:
MY: 2005
Engine Miles:~185k
Rocker Miles: ~30k
Ambient pressure: 12.5psi/85kpa
Volumetric flow @ Idle(~760rpm): 14.5g/s = 1.66Volts
Volumetric flow @ ~2000rpm: 43-45g/s = 2.55Volts
Ambient Air Temp: 88F
Intake Air Temp: 117F
Relative Humidity: 22.5%



Blank for you to copy:
<USERNAME>:
MY:
Engine Miles:
Rocker Miles:
Ambient pressure:
Volumetric flow @ Idle(~760rpm):
Volumetric flow @ ~2000rpm:
Ambient Air Temp: outside thermometer
Intake Air Temp: IAT sensor from engine
Relative Humidity:
Author:  WWDiesel [ Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is your mass flow data for looking at rocker health
Sir Sam wrote:
Never saw good correlated data, it would be nice to build a nominal curve of some kind, but there is a huge variation between all our jeeps.

Can anyone contributed readings to build a curve? Ideally we would have data for new engines with perfect rockers at sea level (in a frictionless void!), but we will have to settle for owner contributed data.

DRBIII only reports flow as sensor volts, so all the aftermarket units are somehow reporting it as flow, since I have both I will include data for both. Maybe build it into a google docs spreadsheet? I could also do some testing on my own using the set RPM command to hold 700 rpm, 800rpm, 900rpm etc to record more consistent data to get a better map of my own engine to share or of the sensor voltage.


Sir Sam:
MY: 2005
Engine Miles:~185k
Rocker Miles: ~30k
Ambient pressure: 12.5psi/85kpa
Volumetric flow @ Idle(~760rpm): 14.5g/s = 1.66Volts
Volumetric flow @ ~2000rpm: 43-45g/s = 2.55Volts

Blank for you to copy:
<USERNAME>:
MY:
Engine Miles:
Rocker Miles:
Ambient pressure:
Volumetric flow @ Idle(~760rpm):
Volumetric flow @ ~2000rpm:

:idea: Just a thought, you may want to include ambient temperature and humidity at time of readings taken since they can have a huge impact on air density which will affect air flow?
Author:  Sir Sam [ Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is your mass flow data for looking at rocker health
WWDiesel wrote:
:idea: Just a thought, you may want to include ambient temperature and humidity at time of readings taken since they can have a huge impact on air density which will affect air flow?


Ooops good point, I thought of that initially but forgot when I got into nitty gritty.
Author:  mass-hole [ Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is your mass flow data for looking at rocker health
WWDiesel wrote:
Sir Sam wrote:
Never saw good correlated data, it would be nice to build a nominal curve of some kind, but there is a huge variation between all our jeeps.

Can anyone contributed readings to build a curve? Ideally we would have data for new engines with perfect rockers at sea level (in a frictionless void!), but we will have to settle for owner contributed data.

DRBIII only reports flow as sensor volts, so all the aftermarket units are somehow reporting it as flow, since I have both I will include data for both. Maybe build it into a google docs spreadsheet? I could also do some testing on my own using the set RPM command to hold 700 rpm, 800rpm, 900rpm etc to record more consistent data to get a better map of my own engine to share or of the sensor voltage.


Sir Sam:
MY: 2005
Engine Miles:~185k
Rocker Miles: ~30k
Ambient pressure: 12.5psi/85kpa
Volumetric flow @ Idle(~760rpm): 14.5g/s = 1.66Volts
Volumetric flow @ ~2000rpm: 43-45g/s = 2.55Volts

Blank for you to copy:
<USERNAME>:
MY:
Engine Miles:
Rocker Miles:
Ambient pressure:
Volumetric flow @ Idle(~760rpm):
Volumetric flow @ ~2000rpm:

:idea: Just a thought, you may want to include ambient temperature and humidity at time of readings taken since they can have a huge impact on air density which will affect air flow?


Doesnt the MAF sensor already account for these things? I thought thats why they used a heated element.

I can check mine tomorrow but it wont be exactly the same with my new turbo and other mods.
Author:  Sir Sam [ Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is your mass flow data for looking at rocker health
mass-hole wrote:
WWDiesel wrote:
Sir Sam wrote:
Never saw good correlated data, it would be nice to build a nominal curve of some kind, but there is a huge variation between all our jeeps.

Can anyone contributed readings to build a curve? Ideally we would have data for new engines with perfect rockers at sea level (in a frictionless void!), but we will have to settle for owner contributed data.

DRBIII only reports flow as sensor volts, so all the aftermarket units are somehow reporting it as flow, since I have both I will include data for both. Maybe build it into a google docs spreadsheet? I could also do some testing on my own using the set RPM command to hold 700 rpm, 800rpm, 900rpm etc to record more consistent data to get a better map of my own engine to share or of the sensor voltage.


Sir Sam:
MY: 2005
Engine Miles:~185k
Rocker Miles: ~30k
Ambient pressure: 12.5psi/85kpa
Volumetric flow @ Idle(~760rpm): 14.5g/s = 1.66Volts
Volumetric flow @ ~2000rpm: 43-45g/s = 2.55Volts

Blank for you to copy:
<USERNAME>:
MY:
Engine Miles:
Rocker Miles:
Ambient pressure:
Volumetric flow @ Idle(~760rpm):
Volumetric flow @ ~2000rpm:

:idea: Just a thought, you may want to include ambient temperature and humidity at time of readings taken since they can have a huge impact on air density which will affect air flow?


Doesnt the MAF sensor already account for these things? I thought thats why they used a heated element.

I can check mine tomorrow but it wont be exactly the same with my new turbo and other mods.


Sort of, the hotwire MAF is able to provide correction so that the output voltage always means a volumetric flow. So the this means we can always trust the reading to be correct, however the reading can still change with ambient conditions, therefor its important to note ambient conditions to understand why a 100% healthy engine in colorado will have different readings than a 100% engine at sea level.

For example colorado is usually about 85kpa, whereas sea level is about 101kpa. 15% difference in flow wouldn't be unheard of.
Author:  mass-hole [ Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What is your mass flow data for looking at rocker health
Sir Sam wrote:
mass-hole wrote:
WWDiesel wrote:
[quote="Sir Sam"]Never saw good correlated data, it would be nice to build a nominal curve of some kind, but there is a huge variation between all our jeeps.

Can anyone contributed readings to build a curve? Ideally we would have data for new engines with perfect rockers at sea level (in a frictionless void!), but we will have to settle for owner contributed data.

DRBIII only reports flow as sensor volts, so all the aftermarket units are somehow reporting it as flow, since I have both I will include data for both. Maybe build it into a google docs spreadsheet? I could also do some testing on my own using the set RPM command to hold 700 rpm, 800rpm, 900rpm etc to record more consistent data to get a better map of my own engine to share or of the sensor voltage.


Sir Sam:
MY: 2005
Engine Miles:~185k
Rocker Miles: ~30k
Ambient pressure: 12.5psi/85kpa
Volumetric flow @ Idle(~760rpm): 14.5g/s = 1.66Volts
Volumetric flow @ ~2000rpm: 43-45g/s = 2.55Volts

Blank for you to copy:
<USERNAME>:
MY:
Engine Miles:
Rocker Miles:
Ambient pressure:
Volumetric flow @ Idle(~760rpm):
Volumetric flow @ ~2000rpm:

:idea: Just a thought, you may want to include ambient temperature and humidity at time of readings taken since they can have a huge impact on air density which will affect air flow?


Doesnt the MAF sensor already account for these things? I thought thats why they used a heated element.

I can check mine tomorrow but it wont be exactly the same with my new turbo and other mods.


Sort of, the hotwire MAF is able to provide correction so that the output voltage always means a volumetric flow. So the this means we can always trust the reading to be correct, however the reading can still change with ambient conditions, therefor its important to note ambient conditions to understand why a 100% healthy engine in colorado will have different readings than a 100% engine at sea level.

For example colorado is usually about 85kpa, whereas sea level is about 101kpa. 15% difference in flow wouldn't be unheard of.[/quote]

Right, I’m at 80 kPa and see 12.5-12.9g/s. I’ll get an exact reading tomorrow.
Author:  WWDiesel [ Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What is your mass flow data for looking at rocker health
Humidity can have a big impact on total air flow.
In the example above, taking measurements in Colorado and at sea level in say Florida, the air in CO would be much dryer verses the 90%+ humid air in FL at sea level.
I am not sure that the MAF sensor can compensate electronically for humidity or the relative dew point of the incoming air.

As an old large steam boiler/turbine operator, I know full well from experience how much ambient air temperature, humidity, and barometric pressure can have on the performance of a 10 story boiler making steam. And we had some very sophisticated instruments for measuring incoming air flow and all these other parameters of the air being pumped into the boiler by huge fans. Depending on ambient conditions, we could pull much more load with the turbine/generator if incoming air conditions were ideal, low humidity and mild temperatures. Nice dense dry air!
I don't suspect an engine performance to be a whole lot different...
Author:  Sir Sam [ Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is your mass flow data for looking at rocker health
WWDiesel wrote:
Humidity can have a big impact on total air flow.
In the example above, taking measurements in Colorado and at sea level in say Florida, the air in CO would be much dryer verses the 90%+ humid air in FL at sea level.
I am not sure that the MAF sensor can compensate electronically for humidity or the relative dew point of the incoming air.

As an old large steam boiler/turbine operator, I know full well from experience how much ambient air temperature, humidity, and barometric pressure can have on the performance of a 10 story boiler making steam. And we had some very sophisticated instruments for measuring incoming air flow and all these other parameters of the air being pumped into the boiler by huge fans. Depending on ambient conditions, we could pull much more load with the turbine/generator if incoming air conditions were ideal, low humidity and mild temperatures. Nice dense dry air!
I don't suspect an engine performance to be a whole lot different... :roll:


I do turbine controls for work, steam, compressors, gas turbines etc. Ambient conditions(and fuel quality, or steam properties), make a huge difference. DLE (dry low emissions) gas turbines are so finely tuned that 20 degrees of difference in a temperature swing from morning to midday can make the different between the engine starting or not starting. Seasonal mapping is a big deal at many sites where they might have to map the engine 3 times are year to keep it running.

As such its important to understand why the numbers can vary so much for us. Basically we will have such few datapoints that it will be hard to really understand what is "good" or "bad" since the actual curve is a 3D curve that has become 4D since we have a time/age/use factor as well.

i could repeat the same test at 0F and likely have very different numbers, they would still be the same sort of engine health that I have now, but just different flow because the air is so cold and dense.
Author:  WWDiesel [ Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is your mass flow data for looking at rocker health
Sir Sam wrote:
As such its important to understand why the numbers can vary so much for us. Basically we will have such few datapoints that it will be hard to really understand what is "good" or "bad" since the actual curve is a 3D curve that has become 4D since we have a time/age/use factor as well.

i could repeat the same test at 0F and likely have very different numbers, they would still be the same sort of engine health that I have now, but just different flow because the air is so cold and dense.

I totally concur; without a good set of baseline datapoints to compare against, and all the possible variables like cam wear, accuracy of cam timing which affects length of time for valve openings, it gets very hard to do meaningful comparisons between engines. But it certainly is worth a try to see what shakes out.
Author:  mass-hole [ Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What is your mass flow data for looking at rocker health
Maybe start a google sheet that we can record all this on? A guy did this on the F150 forum recording gvwr, Payload and options for a whole slew(like >1000) F150s so it was easier to understand how the options affected payload.
Author:  WolverineFW [ Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is your mass flow data for looking at rocker health
You have been holding out on us only showing us pics of diesel motors and off roading.

Where are the pics of big gas turbines and such? ;-)
Sir Sam wrote:
WWDiesel wrote:
Humidity can have a big impact on total air flow.
In the example above, taking measurements in Colorado and at sea level in say Florida, the air in CO would be much dryer verses the 90%+ humid air in FL at sea level.
I am not sure that the MAF sensor can compensate electronically for humidity or the relative dew point of the incoming air.

As an old large steam boiler/turbine operator, I know full well from experience how much ambient air temperature, humidity, and barometric pressure can have on the performance of a 10 story boiler making steam. And we had some very sophisticated instruments for measuring incoming air flow and all these other parameters of the air being pumped into the boiler by huge fans. Depending on ambient conditions, we could pull much more load with the turbine/generator if incoming air conditions were ideal, low humidity and mild temperatures. Nice dense dry air!
I don't suspect an engine performance to be a whole lot different... :roll:


I do turbine controls for work, steam, compressors, gas turbines etc. Ambient conditions(and fuel quality, or steam properties), make a huge difference. DLE (dry low emissions) gas turbines are so finely tuned that 20 degrees of difference in a temperature swing from morning to midday can make the different between the engine starting or not starting. Seasonal mapping is a big deal at many sites where they might have to map the engine 3 times are year to keep it running.

As such its important to understand why the numbers can vary so much for us. Basically we will have such few datapoints that it will be hard to really understand what is "good" or "bad" since the actual curve is a 3D curve that has become 4D since we have a time/age/use factor as well.

i could repeat the same test at 0F and likely have very different numbers, they would still be the same sort of engine health that I have now, but just different flow because the air is so cold and dense.


Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk
Author:  Sir Sam [ Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is your mass flow data for looking at rocker health
WolverineFW wrote:
You have been holding out on us only showing us pics of diesel motors and off roading.


Image

I got tons more around, most not online.

Here is a short video you might find interesting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcJvxkHbVJE&t=612s

Taken from one of these:

Image
Author:  mrhemi [ Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is your mass flow data for looking at rocker health
When I saw LCS-7, USS Detroit sail past my house on the way to it's commissioning ceremony in Detroit. I had to Google machine what it was I was looking at. I had to chuckle, that in spite of President Trump's "buy American" Twitter rants, the USS Detroit is powered by Rolls Royce turbines. Especially when it's namesake is the "Motor City"
Author:  APC9199 [ Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is your mass flow data for looking at rocker health
mrhemi wrote:
When I saw LCS-7, USS Detroit sail past my house on the way to it's commissioning ceremony in Detroit. I had to Google machine what it was I was looking at. I had to chuckle, that in spite of President Trump's "buy American" Twitter rants, the USS Detroit is powered by Rolls Royce turbines. Especially when it's namesake is the "Motor City"


Well, to be fair, the ship was commissioned just a few months after his inauguration and I'm quite positive the motors had been sourced long before he was even considered a candidate.
Author:  Sir Sam [ Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is your mass flow data for looking at rocker health
mrhemi wrote:
When I saw LCS-7, USS Detroit sail past my house on the way to it's commissioning ceremony in Detroit. I had to Google machine what it was I was looking at. I had to chuckle, that in spite of President Trump's "buy American" Twitter rants, the USS Detroit is powered by Rolls Royce turbines. Especially when it's namesake is the "Motor City"


Rolls Royce builds a ton of Turbines for all sorts of US Aircraft, and ships, just like how GE builds tons of engine for foreign aircraft and Navy's. There are a bunch of people

Procurement for LCS28 and LCS27 is going on now, then engines for LCS28 have already been built and tested by GE. LCS16 has just now been transferred to the Navy and is about to undergo its final checks before the crew departs Mobile Al.

The LCS program has been in full swing for over a decade, and its inception was much before that even. The next US Frigate, FFg(x) program is accepting design proposals now, and you can believe it will be a long while before the actual hull hits the water.
Author:  WWDiesel [ Mon Aug 27, 2018 2:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is your mass flow data for looking at rocker health
My data:
wwdiesel:
MY: 2005
Engine Miles: 159k
Rocker Miles: 159k
Ambient pressure: 30.13
Volumetric flow @ Idle(~760rpm): 17.7
Volumetric flow @ ~2000rpm: 50.5
Ambient Air Temp: 92 deg.s F
Intake Air Temp: 122.0
Relative Humidity: 60%
Dew Point 67 deg.s F

@ Idle
Image

@ 2k RPM
Image
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