It is currently Fri Mar 29, 2024 5:06 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 41 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: 2005 Cherokee KJ CRD 2.8 Hard Start In Morning problem found
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 5:55 am 
Offline
LOST Newbie

Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:04 am
Posts: 87
Hi Everyone,

On a side note: My KJ is at the dealers today in response to a recall on the rear lower control arms. If I did not pick this up on international sites like LOST I probably would not have been aware of this and continued with the old units. Thanks for that.

My frustration is with starting in the morning (winter or summer). The battery is new, I replaced ceramic glow plugs with 7V Etecno's. I've sorted air in fuel by installing in-line Facit fuel pump near fuel tank. If I try to start after the glow plug indicator light goes off, the engine will crank for a long time and eventually start. The exhaust smoke has a strong diesel smell (unburnt fuel?).

If I turn the ignition switch and wait until all the warning lights on the dash turn of (+-10 sec), the engine starts much easier. Does this allow the glow plugs to be more effective in heating the fuel?

The rest of the day the engine fires up almost instantly.

Is this glow plug related? It did the same with the original ceramics. Could it be the fuel pressure solenoid on the pump or the fuel pressure sensor at the fuel rail that is faulty? If so why does it start perfectly after the first morning start-up?

Any suggestions/advice/insight would be highly appreciated.

_________________
Ludi Neethling
South Africa
2005 Jeep KJ CRD 2.8 (6 M/T)
Susp:Ironman Coils, Shocks new bushes and ball joints
Therm: Replaced
EGR: Cleaned, re-installed
CCV Catch Can
MAP sensor: Cleaned
Injectors: Repl
Alt pulley: Repl
Serp Belt: Repl
Crank Pos Sens: Replaced
T/B & W/P: Repl @ 200k Km
Repl Cer GP with Etechno 7V GP 212k Km
Repl CCV


Last edited by Ludi Neethling on Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2005 Cherokee KJ CRD 2.8 Hard Start In Morning
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:00 pm 
Offline
LOST Newbie

Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:04 am
Posts: 87
Is it possible that this could be linked to a leaking injector causing a small amount of diesel build-up during the night, resulting in hard start? I requested the dealer to do a diagnostic scan and no fault codes were detected.

_________________
Ludi Neethling
South Africa
2005 Jeep KJ CRD 2.8 (6 M/T)
Susp:Ironman Coils, Shocks new bushes and ball joints
Therm: Replaced
EGR: Cleaned, re-installed
CCV Catch Can
MAP sensor: Cleaned
Injectors: Repl
Alt pulley: Repl
Serp Belt: Repl
Crank Pos Sens: Replaced
T/B & W/P: Repl @ 200k Km
Repl Cer GP with Etechno 7V GP 212k Km
Repl CCV


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2005 Cherokee KJ CRD 2.8 Hard Start In Morning
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:21 pm 
Offline
LOST Member

Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:22 pm
Posts: 393
Location: north central Nebraska
I'd say your symptoms are glo plug or at least glow plug system related.
Just from your description;
1. longer wait to start seems to help
2. re start a warm or hot engine is much better.

When it does fire up is it a 'hit and miss' on 1 or 2 cylinders, eventually hitting on all 4, and you can stop cranking?
or is it 'nothing while cranking'... and suddenly it fires up?
Does the smell after start up also include a fair amount of a white vapor cloud.. you would just be able to see it in the rear view mirror .. for a second or 2..
.....only 'stinks' when starting cold??

All pretty good indicators that the cold start system is weak

_________________
2006 KJ CRD, bought 9/11/14, 70,500 miles. Circulating Rotella T6 5w-40
11-3-14 oem stat installed
11-5-14 gen II FH installed.
Sasquatch elbow kit, samcos, GDE eco FT. 11-26-14
80,500 miles, engine is disassembled, awaiting parts 3/18
Budget?? Sure! 'Everything I have'.
New "Pet" name for My Jeep; 'Soul Sucker'


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2005 Cherokee KJ CRD 2.8 Hard Start In Morning
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:26 pm 
Offline
LOST Newbie
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 08, 2012 1:57 am
Posts: 94
Location: South Bulgaria
rancherman wrote:
I'd say your symptoms are glo plug or at least glow plug system related.
Just from your description;
1. longer wait to start seems to help
2. re start a warm or hot engine is much better.

When it does fire up is it a 'hit and miss' on 1 or 2 cylinders, eventually hitting on all 4, and you can stop cranking?
or is it 'nothing while cranking'... and suddenly it fires up?
Does the smell after start up also include a fair amount of a white vapor cloud.. you would just be able to see it in the rear view mirror .. for a second or 2..
.....only 'stinks' when starting cold??

All pretty good indicators that the cold start system is weak


Agreed. Mine did the same and was clattering and smoking like steam engine in cold mornings. Glow plug #3 was :dead: .

_________________
Grumpy turtle from Finland, deep in a swamp at Balkans... Safe place in this unsafe world...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2005 Cherokee KJ CRD 2.8 Hard Start In Morning
PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:13 am 
Offline
LOST Member

Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2017 3:48 am
Posts: 462
Location: White River in the Bush South Africa
Ludi what part of SA are you in?

This place is not exactly freezing cold compared to parts of the USA.
My old 2002 Export 2.5 CRD uses 11 volt glowplugs with nothing fancy to check that they are working...ECM only checks that the two large glow plug relay coils are not shorted or open circuit.

I have deliberately pulled the two relays out and could still start the Jeep when cold....shudders like crazy at first and big puff of smoke but it fires up right away!

I have seen that a lot of CRD owners here on Lost are running 5 volt glow plugs with the 7 volt tune and are having improved starting in the cold.

Maybe try the local Bosch shops to see if they can diagnose what is happening...they could not help me with my old Jeep with some issues I had as their equipment was not able to read the PCI bus that my Jeep uses but your Jeep uses mainly a CAN bus so they may be able to handle that! :?

Edit to add: what brand of diesel are you using? I only use Sasol as it is the only 10 ppm diesel available....find my Jeep does not run as smoothly on the other brands!

_________________
2002 Export CRD


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2005 Cherokee KJ CRD 2.8 Hard Start In Morning
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:20 am 
Offline
LOST Newbie

Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:04 am
Posts: 87
Thank you for the replies.

Rancherman
I replaced the original ceramic glow plugs with new 7V Etechno glow plugs that I imported from Italy to South Africa for less than half the price for OEM glow plugs at Dealer. Still the same symptoms. After standing overnight on first start up it cranks for a long time (+-7 seconds) before firing up with a fair amount of white/grey smoke reeking strongly of diesel. All cylinders fire up and it runs evenly. Could the glow plug relay be the culprit?

Billybob
I live in Bloemfontein, Free State and the Jeep is in a garage overnight. As you stated the cold temp should not be a problem.

I still have the original injectors that was replaced a couple of years ago. Interestingly, since the injectors were replaced my fuel consumption increased. At the time I started with rectifying all the "issues" as mention in the original post.I assumed the injectors were sorted.

I took the original injectors to an alternative specialist today for testing. Then I will let them test the injectors in the engine currently. Hopefully out of 8 injectors at least four will be A1.

Lastly I will do a compression test :shock: . According to aforementioned specialist bad engine compression could also be the reason for hard cold start. Will keep you posted on the outcome.

_________________
Ludi Neethling
South Africa
2005 Jeep KJ CRD 2.8 (6 M/T)
Susp:Ironman Coils, Shocks new bushes and ball joints
Therm: Replaced
EGR: Cleaned, re-installed
CCV Catch Can
MAP sensor: Cleaned
Injectors: Repl
Alt pulley: Repl
Serp Belt: Repl
Crank Pos Sens: Replaced
T/B & W/P: Repl @ 200k Km
Repl Cer GP with Etechno 7V GP 212k Km
Repl CCV


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2005 Cherokee KJ CRD 2.8 Hard Start In Morning
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:51 am 
Offline
LOST Member

Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:22 pm
Posts: 393
Location: north central Nebraska
Ludi Neethling wrote:
Thank you for the replies.

Rancherman
I replaced the original ceramic glow plugs with new 7V Etechno glow plugs that I imported from Italy to South Africa for less than half the price for OEM glow plugs at Dealer. Still the same symptoms. After standing overnight on first start up it cranks for a long time (+-7 seconds) before firing up with a fair amount of white/grey smoke reeking strongly of diesel. All cylinders fire up and it runs evenly. Could the glow plug relay be the culprit?

Billybob
I live in Bloemfontein, Free State and the Jeep is in a garage overnight. As you stated the cold temp should not be a problem.

I still have the original injectors that was replaced a couple of years ago. Interestingly, since the injectors were replaced my fuel consumption increased. At the time I started with rectifying all the "issues" as mention in the original post.I assumed the injectors were sorted.

I took the original injectors to an alternative specialist today for testing. Then I will let them test the injectors in the engine currently. Hopefully out of 8 injectors at least four will be A1.

Lastly I will do a compression test :shock: . According to aforementioned specialist bad engine compression could also be the reason for hard cold start. Will keep you posted on the outcome.


MY experience with any cold start aid sure points to your system being weak, or non functioning. But I was thinking around 50-60f or lower
I'll bet you are going to tell me that it's closer to 70f + inside your garage. It shouldn't take more than a second or 2, with a 'dead' glo circuit.. at that temp.
(that'd make a nice experiment/research; seeing how long it takes at various temps for these engines to start with the relays pulled)

Couple of clues;
1. you said that an extended 'wait to start' seems to help.
2. Your replacement injectors are using more fuel. (how much more?)
You might be facing a blubbering injector(s), that leak down overnight.. and you need longer to crank to 'clear' a wet piston(s) An extended 'wait to start' sure would speed this up too. 'rebuilt' injectors, sometimes, 'not always top notch'...

Did you replace your original injectors because you were fighting the same symptoms? 'extended crank cold start', and larger white start-up cloud? Chances are, if the 'new' injectors didn't help... then my 'leaky' injector probably theory is null. Still, it's interesting the 'new' injectors are blowing more fuel.. (again... 'top notch' :roll: )
The fact that an extended wait seems to help the starting process tells me you have 'some' glo plug assistance. Is it 100%? I cannot say.

How is your oil consumption?
Do you have to 'top off' the coolant occasionally?

I too will see a well worn engine needing longer to fire up when less than operating temp. (compression isn't what it used to be) 'well worn' :roll: These engines seem to just break.. long before they actually wear out.
Next time you have it running, take off the oil fill cap. See if you have a geyser of blow by, or just a nice little waft swirling out.. A nice steady stream, although alarmingly large, would say "worn rings"... A pretty pronounced chuff chuff... says blown head gasket, or a hole in the piston (you'd have other symptoms too, so this shouldn't be your issue) I'm talking VOLUME of blow-by, not necessarily what's in it to colorize it) That part (what's in the blowby) is a little deeper in the diagnosis.

Yes, a compression/ leak down test wouldn't be a bad idea.


To your knowledge, has the air intake hose ever rotted out, allowing dirt and dust into the engine? a 'dusted' engine; piston rings suffer.
This is about all I can offer in the terms of mechanical part of your issues. oh, btw, when it does start, after your several second crank... does it do it with vigor, or is it more like 'oh, I guess it's running... I can stop turning the key'...

_________________
2006 KJ CRD, bought 9/11/14, 70,500 miles. Circulating Rotella T6 5w-40
11-3-14 oem stat installed
11-5-14 gen II FH installed.
Sasquatch elbow kit, samcos, GDE eco FT. 11-26-14
80,500 miles, engine is disassembled, awaiting parts 3/18
Budget?? Sure! 'Everything I have'.
New "Pet" name for My Jeep; 'Soul Sucker'


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2005 Cherokee KJ CRD 2.8 Hard Start In Morning
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:22 pm 
Offline
LOST Newbie

Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:04 am
Posts: 87
Rancherman, thank you for your input, much appreciated. I will post answers/info in red:
MY experience with any cold start aid sure points to your system being weak, or non functioning. But I was thinking around 50-60f or lower
I'll bet you are going to tell me that it's closer to 70f + inside your garage. It shouldn't take more than a second or 2, with a 'dead' glo circuit.. at that temp.
(that'd make a nice experiment/research; seeing how long it takes at various temps for these engines to start with the relays pulled)
(Garage temp never under 50f, this happens in summer time as well)
Couple of clues;
1. you said that an extended 'wait to start' seems to help.
2. Your replacement injectors are using more fuel. (how much more?) (Before replacing injectors I regularly got 27 miles per gallon at 75 MPH or 120 km/h, now it never drops below 23mph
You might be facing a blubbering injector(s), that leak down overnight.. and you need longer to crank to 'clear' a wet piston(s) An extended 'wait to start' sure would speed this up too. 'rebuilt' injectors, sometimes, 'not always top notch'...(I am certain that reconditioned injectors were used, so I am hoping that this could be the problem)

Did you replace your original injectors because you were fighting the same symptoms? 'extended crank cold start', and larger white start-up cloud? Chances are, if the 'new' injectors didn't help... then my 'leaky' injector probably theory is null. Still, it's interesting the 'new' injectors are blowing more fuel.. (again... 'top notch' :roll: ) (At the time I struggled with hard start due to air in fuel, faulty original filter head, dirty MAP sensor, old battery etc. I cannot remember if the symptoms were exactly the same ie. diesel smoke puff at start-up. I also replaced tyres (tar road oriented) with General Grabber A/T's and assumed this would impact negatively on fuel consumption)
The fact that an extended wait seems to help the starting process tells me you have 'some' glo plug assistance. Is it 100%? I cannot say.(I agree)

How is your oil consumption? I service with fully synthetic every 10,000km (6,214miles) and use approximately 1 pint (500ml) to top up during this period. What would be reasonable with this mileage (133,500 miles) engine?
Do you have to 'top off' the coolant occasionally?I only had to do this once and it was a very small amount

I too will see a well worn engine needing longer to fire up when less than operating temp. (compression isn't what it used to be) 'well worn' :roll: These engines seem to just break.. long before they actually wear out.
Next time you have it running, take off the oil fill cap. See if you have a geyser of blow by, or just a nice little waft swirling out.. A nice steady stream, although alarmingly large, would say "worn rings"... A pretty pronounced chuff chuff... says blown head gasket, or a hole in the piston (you'd have other symptoms too, so this shouldn't be your issue) I'm talking VOLUME of blow-by, not necessarily what's in it to colorize it) That part (what's in the blowby) is a little deeper in the diagnosis. I will check this and post the outcome

Yes, a compression/ leak down test wouldn't be a bad idea.


To your knowledge, has the air intake hose ever rotted out, allowing dirt and dust into the engine? a 'dusted' engine; piston rings suffer.
This is about all I can offer in the terms of mechanical part of your issues. oh, btw, when it does start, after your several second crank... does it do it with vigor, or is it more like 'oh, I guess it's running... I can stop turning the key'...I am the second owner and when I got it the hose was damaged and had to be replaced. It is possible that dust could have been sucked in because the original owner was in the Northern Cape where there are a lot of dusty gravel roads. When it starts it runs fine.

_________________
Ludi Neethling
South Africa
2005 Jeep KJ CRD 2.8 (6 M/T)
Susp:Ironman Coils, Shocks new bushes and ball joints
Therm: Replaced
EGR: Cleaned, re-installed
CCV Catch Can
MAP sensor: Cleaned
Injectors: Repl
Alt pulley: Repl
Serp Belt: Repl
Crank Pos Sens: Replaced
T/B & W/P: Repl @ 200k Km
Repl Cer GP with Etechno 7V GP 212k Km
Repl CCV


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2005 Cherokee KJ CRD 2.8 Hard Start In Morning
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 1:02 pm 
Offline
LOST Member

Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:22 pm
Posts: 393
Location: north central Nebraska
Geez, a pint in that period? That's commendable! That 'should' be a fair indicator on the general health of your engine. I'd give it an A+ in this regard.
....But, I need to throw in too; a lot of blowby, caused by worn rings... USED to just blow out excess oil either on the ground, or floating away in the sky. OUR engines do a dang good job of returning it back to the sump... So lack of oil consumption may not be a true indicator these days..
You must forgive me... I just realized you are in the Southern Hemisphere... you are just coming out of 'winter'!!! 8) 50 degrees may in fact be 'too cool' for a weak/non functioning glo plug circuit!! Still shouldn't be an issue with the 20% loss in economy. When I get mine running again... I'm going to do some testing with the glo circuit un hooked, and at various temps, Just so I know where the 'threshold' lays!
(does SA use 'winter fuel'... which COULD have less BTU's, and less economy?) I use a 'blend' of #1 and #2 fuels, not 'winterized' #2. But that's just me.

Hey, does your CRD have a block heater? If so, plug it in for an hour or 2.. see if that changes anything! It's not a 'fix'... just an experiment. If it still fires up 'dirty' with the heater plugged in... or does it fire up like it's been running all day.. That could give more clues too.
Good luck, and get some tests performed! Then some things can be ruled out, or put in the spotlight!!

_________________
2006 KJ CRD, bought 9/11/14, 70,500 miles. Circulating Rotella T6 5w-40
11-3-14 oem stat installed
11-5-14 gen II FH installed.
Sasquatch elbow kit, samcos, GDE eco FT. 11-26-14
80,500 miles, engine is disassembled, awaiting parts 3/18
Budget?? Sure! 'Everything I have'.
New "Pet" name for My Jeep; 'Soul Sucker'


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2005 Cherokee KJ CRD 2.8 Hard Start In Morning
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 2:20 pm 
Offline
LOST Newbie

Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:04 am
Posts: 87
Rancherman,
I must apologize but my info regarding oil top-up is incorrect. Since my last oil change, done 4,000km (2485miles) ago I added +-400ml (.845pt).

We use the same fuel winter and summer. I usually fill up with Sasol 10ppm.

Our CRD's come without the block heater.

I've read a couple of previous posts regarding testing the glow plugs and relay regarding current, etc. I plan to do that if the injectors are ok.

_________________
Ludi Neethling
South Africa
2005 Jeep KJ CRD 2.8 (6 M/T)
Susp:Ironman Coils, Shocks new bushes and ball joints
Therm: Replaced
EGR: Cleaned, re-installed
CCV Catch Can
MAP sensor: Cleaned
Injectors: Repl
Alt pulley: Repl
Serp Belt: Repl
Crank Pos Sens: Replaced
T/B & W/P: Repl @ 200k Km
Repl Cer GP with Etechno 7V GP 212k Km
Repl CCV


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2005 Cherokee KJ CRD 2.8 Hard Start In Morning
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:45 am 
Offline
LOST Member

Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:22 pm
Posts: 393
Location: north central Nebraska
Ludi Neethling wrote:
Rancherman,
I must apologize but my info regarding oil top-up is incorrect. Since my last oil change, done 4,000km (2485miles) ago I added +-400ml (.845pt).

We use the same fuel winter and summer. I usually fill up with Sasol 10ppm.

Our CRD's come without the block heater.

I've read a couple of previous posts regarding testing the glow plugs and relay regarding current, etc. I plan to do that if the injectors are ok.


I'd consider adding a quart in 1000 miles (if there are no leaks) a 'problem'. Yours is still pretty dang good.
The ONE time I changed oil, before the engine 'broke'. (timing belt slipped) I topped it off with a quart. (6000 miles) We are about the same. Honestly, I feel that MOST of this oil was carried out the breather, and returned to the intake side of the engine and burned. This is just the way this design works.

I notice you say 10ppm (I'm assuming Sulphur content) in a couple of your posts. Do you have various grades to choose from? Maybe offroad customers (agriculture, mining..) can get higher levels? curious!
We, (U.S.) had a brief period during the phase out of high sulphur fuels that 'off road fuel' could be a little higher in Sulphur.. but eventually became all ULSD now. Our choices pretty much are limited to the 'regular diesel'... and 'high speed, or premium diesel'.
Cetane levels are the main difference between them (besides 30- 40 cents per gallon difference!)
Higher cetane; faster light off, quicker time to complete burn...More effective in an engine that turns 2500-3000 rpm, than one slugging away at 1600 rpm.
But in any case, 10ppm sulphur is the constant.

_________________
2006 KJ CRD, bought 9/11/14, 70,500 miles. Circulating Rotella T6 5w-40
11-3-14 oem stat installed
11-5-14 gen II FH installed.
Sasquatch elbow kit, samcos, GDE eco FT. 11-26-14
80,500 miles, engine is disassembled, awaiting parts 3/18
Budget?? Sure! 'Everything I have'.
New "Pet" name for My Jeep; 'Soul Sucker'


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2005 Cherokee KJ CRD 2.8 Hard Start In Morning
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:27 am 
Offline
LOST Newbie

Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:04 am
Posts: 87
In my original post I mentioned that due to a recall on the rear lower control arms I had to take the Jeep to the dealer for replacement. Today at the diesel electric tech the owner of the shop took it for a drive. When he pulled away there was a thud from the rear. We found that the dealer technician who installed the control arms did not tighten the stabilizer bar bolts or the rear bolt on the left control arm :x

Back to my hard start issue/s. The injectors replaced in 2015 by another "specialist" were tested and all four are 100%. This means I paid a bucketfull of money for so called reconditioned units and labour, and all for nothing :shock:

Seeing that the hard start problem is still the same as it was then the tech and I decided not to pull the current injectors.

I also decided to remove the in-line Facit fuel pump. Since I installed it in 2016, I checked the filter head primer from time to time and it was always stiff. I assumed that this meant no air in filter and did not bleed it. Today I decided to and to my surprise, when I loosened the bleeding nipple nothing happened, no air, no fuel. The primer is still rock hard. This got me thinking. WWdiesel and other forum members are firm believers in in-tank lift pumps for good reason. My question is what happens to the air in the line from the tank to the filter via an in-line pump? Am I to assume that the Facit has a non return valve and that this could be the reason for the aforementioned? Any suggestions?

I turned on the ignition for the Facit to work and got fuel at the bleeding nipple. The flow seems weak. Will this be a problem or will the diesel pump at the engine suck enough fuel through the free flow Facit valve?

I plan to drop the diesel tank, clean it, make sure there are no air leaks and connect the fuel line directly to the filter as per original. As far as I know there are no distributors for the correct in-tank pump in South Africa and it will be too expensive to import.

Thank you once again for this forum, I would have been "lost" without it. :lol:

_________________
Ludi Neethling
South Africa
2005 Jeep KJ CRD 2.8 (6 M/T)
Susp:Ironman Coils, Shocks new bushes and ball joints
Therm: Replaced
EGR: Cleaned, re-installed
CCV Catch Can
MAP sensor: Cleaned
Injectors: Repl
Alt pulley: Repl
Serp Belt: Repl
Crank Pos Sens: Replaced
T/B & W/P: Repl @ 200k Km
Repl Cer GP with Etechno 7V GP 212k Km
Repl CCV


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2005 Cherokee KJ CRD 2.8 Hard Start In Morning
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:11 pm 
Offline
LOST Member

Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:22 pm
Posts: 393
Location: north central Nebraska
'what happens to the air in the line'..

The filter head is the highest spot in the system. ON PURPOSE.
Air will 'end up' there because, air rises in a non moving fluid. So, bleeding it out at that point 'should' remove 'most'.

When it *amount of air* becomes too much in the filter, the 'draw effect' of the suction side inside the high pressure will draw these bubbles in and try to inject them.. Of all the fuel that is going down the 'rail'... very little is actually injected. Most of it goes out the end, and returns to tank. Taking the air bubbles with it.


I can have entrapped air in any filter, and as long as there isn't anymore being ingested, the engine typically runs 'normally'. It's when it continuously is gulping air, is when the problems show up.
Here is an extremely crude, and not to scale drawing;
Image
Notice the 'air bubbles' in the top part of the head. As those bubbles increase in area, they'll eventually get swept down into the filter. This happens when air can continually enter the supply side of the filter. If air no longer can enter, a little 'pocket' such as I show, is totally harmless.. and eventually would 'work it's way out'.. (swirling fuel continuously 'eats' way at the larger bubbles, and they get broke down into a 'frothy' type size bubble, which easily is swept away)
This whole contraption I drew (without a helper pump) is subject to less than atmosphere pressure. Air is LOOKING for anywhere to get in.

Since these filters don't have a 'draw from bottom' center tube, They are going to always "suck off the top" (not the head, but the area inside the filter element itself)... where our friendly air pocket is quite happy to get introduced.... and enters the High Pressure side of it's trip.
Some of this air can make it down (up actually) towards the injector... some of it harmlessly goes out the end of the rail, and is returned to the tank, where it's finally 'released'.... Some of the
It's the moment in time when there is air in a couple of those injectors that makes life tough.. Eventually, it will get pounded out.. (simply cranking probably won't do it, unless a line is 'cracked open') But if there is a continuous source of air, It's a never ending cycle. Most air should simply make it back-to-tank... but some is going to eventually find it's way into the injector.

You removed the Facit pump? No lift pump now at all?

_________________
2006 KJ CRD, bought 9/11/14, 70,500 miles. Circulating Rotella T6 5w-40
11-3-14 oem stat installed
11-5-14 gen II FH installed.
Sasquatch elbow kit, samcos, GDE eco FT. 11-26-14
80,500 miles, engine is disassembled, awaiting parts 3/18
Budget?? Sure! 'Everything I have'.
New "Pet" name for My Jeep; 'Soul Sucker'


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2005 Cherokee KJ CRD 2.8 Hard Start In Morning
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:07 pm 
Offline
LOST Newbie

Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:04 am
Posts: 87
Rancherman, thank you so much for your reply and explanation.
This is also how I understand the system. What I cannot comprehend is the fact than almost no air/fuel comes out of the bleeder and the priming knob does not budge (this is with the Facit switched off). After my previous post (later edited) I switched the ignition on to check the flow of fuel out of the bleeder while the Facit is working and it appears to be slow ( I know this is relative). Back in 2016 when I installed the in-line pump I made sure that the psi (I think +-7psi?) was within the parameters posted by other LOST members. I did not physically check the actual flow at the time, so I am concerned that if the Facit is starting to go on the blink the through flow (from tank to diesel pump) could be restricted. Even though the Facit is a free flow unit I am worried about this. I have not removed it yet.

_________________
Ludi Neethling
South Africa
2005 Jeep KJ CRD 2.8 (6 M/T)
Susp:Ironman Coils, Shocks new bushes and ball joints
Therm: Replaced
EGR: Cleaned, re-installed
CCV Catch Can
MAP sensor: Cleaned
Injectors: Repl
Alt pulley: Repl
Serp Belt: Repl
Crank Pos Sens: Replaced
T/B & W/P: Repl @ 200k Km
Repl Cer GP with Etechno 7V GP 212k Km
Repl CCV


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2005 Cherokee KJ CRD 2.8 Hard Start In Morning
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:30 pm 
Offline
LOST Member

Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:22 pm
Posts: 393
Location: north central Nebraska
Ludi Neethling wrote:
Rancherman, thank you so much for your reply and explanation.
This is also how I understand the system. What I cannot comprehend is the fact than almost no air/fuel comes out of the bleeder and the priming knob does not budge (this is with the Facit switched off). After my previous post (later edited) I switched the ignition on to check the flow of fuel out of the bleeder while the Facit is working and it appears to be slow ( I know this is relative). Back in 2016 when I installed the in-line pump I made sure that the psi (I think +-7psi?) was within the parameters posted by other LOST members. I did not physically check the actual flow at the time, so I am concerned that if the Facit is starting to go on the blink the through flow (from tank to diesel pump) could be restricted. Even though the Facit is a free flow unit I am worried about this. I have not removed it yet.


with bleeder open, and facit 'on'... there should be a pretty good stream!

The whole primer pump thing is basically a piston, a spring loaded 'accumulator' of sorts, and a couple of one-way check ball. I haven't had this particular filter head dismantled, perhaps the 'accumulator' is actually integrated within the 'pumper' part itself.

Pump the primer, and pressure builds against the accumulator. (that spring is now compressed) and further attempts to press the pump feels 'stiff'.
When the primer knob is released, and it comes back out, a check ball closes on the OUTLET side of the filter housing, and draws fuel from the tank and into the head. Pressing the knob reverses this; a check ball closes on the INLET, and pressure from your thumb forces fuel out of the piston, and either;
1. tries to push fuel towards the CP3, or
2. compresses a little tiny 'accumulator' within the filter head.
This check ball prevents our built up pressure from simply return back to the tank via the supply line.

So, when the bleeder valve is opened, the built up pressure within the head
(some of it will be the entrapped air itself, as air is compressible , some of it will be the spring inside the accumulator) will squirt out until the pressure is zero.
So on the next 'pumping', and no air is present, it still takes a pump or 2 to achieve 'stiffness'... to preload that accumulator. Open the bleeder, and it squirts solid fuel out until that accumulator spring is relaxed.
Starting and running the engine also relieves that spring tension. This is without any in line or in tank pump.
So, you can pump the pump until you feel resistance.. start the engine... and all that will be 'gone', until you pump it again.
Resistance or stiffness is only felt AT THAT MOMENT. Starting the engine, Sitting overnight (those accumulators are 'ok' for temporary pressure build, but not for extended periods) Their main purpose is to hold pressure long enough to push air out the bleeder when it's open.

Something is going on with your filter head. A stuck check ball, jammed pumper piston, jammed accumulator.. or blocked passageways.. Something is preventing a nice stream of fuel coming out, or pressure to even be built up! The stream should about arc over and hit the middle of the valve cover.
How far are you opening the screw?


I do a 'quick pump' on similar type filter heads. I open the bleeder valve, say a full turn, then simply place my thumb over the end. (bohemian flap valve) pump away!!! light thumb pressure keeps air from going in, but fuel can easily squirt past my thumb. *use a rubber glove if you want.
Allows for fast pumping to fill an empty filter. No screwing around with multiple bleeder open/close/open/close..

Start with the bleeder. open that baby up a whole turn, or even more. you should be able to pump a nice full stream, with 'some resistance'. *basically the resistance of the return spring. Do it several times. Just stick your thumb over the screw for the 'return stroke'.. If still nothing, take the bleeder clear out, and check it for blockage, then see if the pumper is still 'stiff'. It should not have hardly any resistance with an open system.

Now, with an inline or in-tank pump, this accumulator would be probably fully compressed most of the time. The fuel pressure going into the head will keep it pinned down. So any attempts to 'pump up' should be immediately felt with stiffness. (if there is no air!)

5-7 psi is a good all around supply pressure. But there is one element of them; they are a 'stroker' type pump. They aren't 'smooth' by any means. I'm wondering if the pulses have chattered the check balls (extremely light weight springs)! or some other component within your filter head! Lets not go down that quite yet though!

The primer knob should push, smoothly and reasonably easy with the bleeder opened. lets figure this out first!

_________________
2006 KJ CRD, bought 9/11/14, 70,500 miles. Circulating Rotella T6 5w-40
11-3-14 oem stat installed
11-5-14 gen II FH installed.
Sasquatch elbow kit, samcos, GDE eco FT. 11-26-14
80,500 miles, engine is disassembled, awaiting parts 3/18
Budget?? Sure! 'Everything I have'.
New "Pet" name for My Jeep; 'Soul Sucker'


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2005 Cherokee KJ CRD 2.8 Hard Start In Morning
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:19 am 
Offline
LOST Newbie

Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:04 am
Posts: 87
Due to the fact that I am leaving on a trip next week I decided to remove the Facit and see what happens. It is exactly as you described, the Facit kept the filter head primed, now I can press the primer knob in again and I'm back to square 1 with air in fuel. Even though this is the case I now know for sure that the air leak must be coming from the fuel tank.

Seeing as the Jeep is 13 years old and this has never been done, I am going to drop the fuel tank, clean it up and determine where the air is coming from. There are nice write-ups on this forum about that. Wish I could install an in-tank lift pump though.

As part of trying to solve the cold hard start over the years, I replaced the filter head twice (Mopar OEM). My question to all the in-tank and in-line fuel pump guys is how much pressure can the filter head manage? I can see "wet" patches above the fuel heater and temperature sensor where the head is connected. As this is a relatively new filter head I wonder if the priming pressure kept constant by the in-line pump, even though it is only +-7 psi could be responsible? I assume that the filter head was originally designed to work without a pump at the tank with the cp3 pump doing all the work from the front? Anyone else with the same experience?

_________________
Ludi Neethling
South Africa
2005 Jeep KJ CRD 2.8 (6 M/T)
Susp:Ironman Coils, Shocks new bushes and ball joints
Therm: Replaced
EGR: Cleaned, re-installed
CCV Catch Can
MAP sensor: Cleaned
Injectors: Repl
Alt pulley: Repl
Serp Belt: Repl
Crank Pos Sens: Replaced
T/B & W/P: Repl @ 200k Km
Repl Cer GP with Etechno 7V GP 212k Km
Repl CCV


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2005 Cherokee KJ CRD 2.8 Hard Start In Morning
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:18 am 
Offline
LOST Member

Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:22 pm
Posts: 393
Location: north central Nebraska
where exactly is your in line facit? Did you do any other mods to the way the line hooks up to the tank module? or are you still running the factory 'quick disconnect'? Those quick disconnects are the prime source for air. They are really not designed for any negative pressure.

+-7 psi is quite adequate. I think it's safe to stop saying 'only'. :) Filter head is fine at this pressure.
Going with any higher pressure say 20-30 psi, could effect the CP3, and how it manages its own internal pressures.

Those 'patches' of wet around the heater plug are a concern. 2 replacement filter heads now? hmmm. I've read that the new version is an improvement over the original. Although, some have reported 'issues', even with the new design. Perhaps it's not the ultimate fix that Chrysler hoped for. If you are seeing wet, im assuming with the facit installed, you surely will be sucking air when the facit is removed.

Couple of things.
when was the last time your filter was changed?
I'm still hung on why you can't get any thing to squirt out of the bleeder valve, and you are feeling 'stiffness' at the primer knob.. I may be misunderstanding something!!

I'm going to recommend that if you take your tank down, you might as well gear up and install the in-tank pump. The 'hard' part is done..
At the very minimum, at least get rid of the quick disconnect, and use a couple of hose clamps to really clamp down on the fuel line that now slips over that quick disconnect bung. I've read too, there is possible connections within the tank itself that could be prone to sucking air in a negative pressure condition.. An in tank pump would take care of all of this.
Facits don't last forever. Some can go a long time, some don't.
Sucking through those quick disconnects isn't good.. an inline pump might even make it worse.

If you have a fair amount of air in the head, and it's all separated out, say an overnight shutdown, I can see a problem with your next cold start! Extended crank, cloud of start up vapor.. The ecm/cp3 is going nutz with some off-scale pressure all the air is causing... And concurrent restarts are actually ok, because the inline pump is 'masking' the effect of a few bubbles.. A longer shut down allows all those bubbles to accumulate in the top of the head.. and there is a temporary 'break' in the flow of solid fuel to the CP3.

A fuel line that is sucking air, really isn't a pure 'bubble'.. it's going to be a tiny line of 'foam' within the line. it appears as an almost invisible white line.. All this 'foam' is going to accumulate and swirl within the filter. sure, some of it will go on through and get injected. Somewhat 'foamy' fuel acts almost like good solid fuel... 'ALMOST'.. ;)
During a shutdown, this foam has time to separate out... and now becomes an actual air gap.. Which could be exactly what you are dealing with..

_________________
2006 KJ CRD, bought 9/11/14, 70,500 miles. Circulating Rotella T6 5w-40
11-3-14 oem stat installed
11-5-14 gen II FH installed.
Sasquatch elbow kit, samcos, GDE eco FT. 11-26-14
80,500 miles, engine is disassembled, awaiting parts 3/18
Budget?? Sure! 'Everything I have'.
New "Pet" name for My Jeep; 'Soul Sucker'


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2005 Cherokee KJ CRD 2.8 Hard Start In Morning
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:18 pm 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:36 pm
Posts: 7158
Location: Central GA
Ludi Neethling wrote:
Due to the fact that I am leaving on a trip next week I decided to remove the Facit and see what happens. It is exactly as you described, the Facit kept the filter head primed, now I can press the primer knob in again and I'm back to square 1 with air in fuel. Even though this is the case I now know for sure that the air leak must be coming from the fuel tank.
Seeing as the Jeep is 13 years old and this has never been done, I am going to drop the fuel tank, clean it up and determine where the air is coming from. There are nice write-ups on this forum about that. Wish I could install an in-tank lift pump though.
As part of trying to solve the cold hard start over the years, I replaced the filter head twice (Mopar OEM). My question to all the in-tank and in-line fuel pump guys is how much pressure can the filter head manage? I can see "wet" patches above the fuel heater and temperature sensor where the head is connected. As this is a relatively new filter head I wonder if the priming pressure kept constant by the in-line pump, even though it is only +-7 psi could be responsible? I assume that the filter head was originally designed to work without a pump at the tank with the cp3 pump doing all the work from the front? Anyone else with the same experience?

IF there is a leak on the suction side of the Facit pump or any of the suction side fittings including the tank fitting, it will suck air and ingest it into the fuel going to the filter, CP3, injectors, etc...
The pump will actually emulsify the air in the fuel making it even harder to ever bleed it all out.
This is also why I don't like in-line pumps that are installed outside of the fuel tank in this application.
The OEM fuel line fittings are designed for a gasser that is under pressure at all times due to having an intank pump from the factory.
They do not do well sealing when under vacuum as in Jeep CRD's from the factory. (factory defect) Some cut them off and install new hose with crimp or screw type clamps.
This is why many have installed intank fuel pumps in their CRDs.

With in-tank pumps you never have this problem due to the fact the pump actually sets in the fuel and takes its suction directly.
An intank pump will provide ~10-14 psig pressure across the entire fuel system to the back of the CP3 so any leak anywhere will be self-evident very quickly and easily found.
It will prime and fill a new fuel filter in a matter of seconds as well.
So, if you drop your tank, do yourself and your Jeep a favor and install an intank fuel pump and more than likely it will should solve all your air infusion problems. I would be real surprised if it does not.

_________________
Supporting Vendor and Moderator of LOST
05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited :JEEPIN:
Ironman Springs/Bilstein/Shocks
Yeti StgIV Hot Tune
Week's BatteryTray
No FCV/EGR
Samcos/ProVent
SunCoast/Transgo
Carter Intank-pmp
2mic.Sec.Fuel Filter
Flowmaster/NO CAT
V6Airbox/noVH
GM11 Bld.fan/HDClutch
IronrockArms/wwdieselMount

98 Dodge Cummins 24 Valve


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2005 Cherokee KJ CRD 2.8 Hard Start In Morning
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:37 pm 
Offline
LOST Newbie

Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:04 am
Posts: 87
rancherman wrote:
where exactly is your in line facit? It was mounted on the cross beam in front of the fuel tank on rubber mountings in an attempt to get rid of the annoying krrrrr of the pump but could still hear it in the cabin Did you do any other mods to the way the line hooks up to the tank module? or are you still running the factory 'quick disconnect'? Those quick disconnects are the prime source for air. They are really not designed for any negative pressure. This was the first mod I did, even before installing the Facit

+-7 psi is quite adequate. I think it's safe to stop saying 'only'. :) Filter head is fine at this pressure.
Going with any higher pressure say 20-30 psi, could effect the CP3, and how it manages its own internal pressures.

Those 'patches' of wet around the heater plug are a concern. 2 replacement filter heads now? hmmm. I've read that the new version is an improvement over the original. Although, some have reported 'issues', even with the new design. Perhaps it's not the ultimate fix that Chrysler hoped for. If you are seeing wet, im assuming with the facit installed, you surely will be sucking air when the facit is removed.

Couple of things.
when was the last time your filter was changed? I've done 15,000 km (9320 ml)on the current filter
I'm still hung on why you can't get any thing to squirt out of the bleeder valve, and you are feeling 'stiffness' at the primer knob.. I may be misunderstanding something!! You understood correctly. Your previous explanation regarding the way the Facit functions is probably the key (pulsating and thus affecting the filter head innards? There was no air in the filter head. I just could not understand why no fuel came out when the bleeder was opened, probably the filter head was primed to the max? After I removed the Facit, connected the fuel line to the tank and started the Jeep (releasing the fuel pressure in the filter) it was back to "normal", ie. primer depresses easily and air from the bleeding nipple. Now I am 100% sure the air leak originates in the tank.

I'm going to recommend that if you take your tank down, you might as well gear up and install the in-tank pump. The 'hard' part is done..After next week's trip I am definitely dropping the tank. Still need to determine what type of cleansing agent to use to clean the tank.
At the very minimum, at least get rid of the quick disconnect, Already done and use a couple of hose clamps to really clamp down on the fuel line that now slips over that quick disconnect bung Done. I've read too, there is possible connections within the tank itself that could be prone to sucking air in a negative pressure condition.. An in tank pump would take care of all of this. I am sure the problem is in the tank, probably at those connections. We are not so lucky to get the correct in-tank fuel pump in South Africa. The last time I checked Sasquatch did not export these items to SA. Would probably be too expensive anyway
Facits don't last forever. Some can go a long time, some don't. Mine lasted 2 years
Sucking through those quick disconnects isn't good.. an inline pump might even make it worse.

If you have a fair amount of air in the head, and it's all separated out, say an overnight shutdown, I can see a problem with your next cold start! Extended crank, cloud of start up vapor..This was how it all started in 2013 when I got the Jeep The ecm/cp3 is going nutz with some off-scale pressure all the air is causing... And concurrent restarts are actually ok, because the inline pump is 'masking' the effect of a few bubbles.. A longer shut down allows all those bubbles to accumulate in the top of the head.. and there is a temporary 'break' in the flow of solid fuel to the CP3. I used to live with this before the Facit. Hopefully after the tank drop this will be sorted.

A fuel line that is sucking air, really isn't a pure 'bubble'.. it's going to be a tiny line of 'foam' within the line. it appears as an almost invisible white line.. All this 'foam' is going to accumulate and swirl within the filter. sure, some of it will go on through and get injected. Somewhat 'foamy' fuel acts almost like good solid fuel... 'ALMOST'.. ;)
During a shutdown, this foam has time to separate out... and now becomes an actual air gap.. Which could be exactly what you are dealing with..
Thank you for your detailed feedback, this is truly appreciated. I will update this post with my findings, good or bad.

_________________
Ludi Neethling
South Africa
2005 Jeep KJ CRD 2.8 (6 M/T)
Susp:Ironman Coils, Shocks new bushes and ball joints
Therm: Replaced
EGR: Cleaned, re-installed
CCV Catch Can
MAP sensor: Cleaned
Injectors: Repl
Alt pulley: Repl
Serp Belt: Repl
Crank Pos Sens: Replaced
T/B & W/P: Repl @ 200k Km
Repl Cer GP with Etechno 7V GP 212k Km
Repl CCV


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2005 Cherokee KJ CRD 2.8 Hard Start In Morning
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 3:02 pm 
Offline
LOST Newbie

Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:04 am
Posts: 87
WWDiesel wrote:
Ludi Neethling wrote:
Due to the fact that I am leaving on a trip next week I decided to remove the Facit and see what happens. It is exactly as you described, the Facit kept the filter head primed, now I can press the primer knob in again and I'm back to square 1 with air in fuel. Even though this is the case I now know for sure that the air leak must be coming from the fuel tank.
Seeing as the Jeep is 13 years old and this has never been done, I am going to drop the fuel tank, clean it up and determine where the air is coming from. There are nice write-ups on this forum about that. Wish I could install an in-tank lift pump though.
As part of trying to solve the cold hard start over the years, I replaced the filter head twice (Mopar OEM). My question to all the in-tank and in-line fuel pump guys is how much pressure can the filter head manage? I can see "wet" patches above the fuel heater and temperature sensor where the head is connected. As this is a relatively new filter head I wonder if the priming pressure kept constant by the in-line pump, even though it is only +-7 psi could be responsible? I assume that the filter head was originally designed to work without a pump at the tank with the cp3 pump doing all the work from the front? Anyone else with the same experience?

IF there is a leak on the suction side of the Facit pump or any of the suction side fittings including the tank fitting, it will suck air and ingest it into the fuel going to the filter, CP3, injectors, etc...
The pump will actually emulsify the air in the fuel making it even harder to ever bleed it all out.
This is also why I don't like in-line pumps that are installed outside of the fuel tank in this application.
The OEM fuel line fittings are designed for a gasser that is under pressure at all times due to having an intank pump from the factory.
They do not do well sealing when under vacuum as in Jeep CRD's from the factory. (factory defect) Some cut them off and install new hose with crimp or screw type clamps.
This is why many have installed intank fuel pumps in their CRDs.

With in-tank pumps you never have this problem due to the fact the pump actually sets in the fuel and takes its suction directly.
An intank pump will provide ~10-14 psig pressure across the entire fuel system to the back of the CP3 so any leak anywhere will be self-evident very quickly and easily found.
It will prime and fill a new fuel filter in a matter of seconds as well.
So, if you drop your tank, do yourself and your Jeep a favor and install an intank fuel pump and more than likely it will should solve all your air infusion problems. I would be real surprised if it does not.[/quote
Thank you WWDiesel, I did not see your message before I answered Rancherman. I appreciate your input and agree totally

_________________
Ludi Neethling
South Africa
2005 Jeep KJ CRD 2.8 (6 M/T)
Susp:Ironman Coils, Shocks new bushes and ball joints
Therm: Replaced
EGR: Cleaned, re-installed
CCV Catch Can
MAP sensor: Cleaned
Injectors: Repl
Alt pulley: Repl
Serp Belt: Repl
Crank Pos Sens: Replaced
T/B & W/P: Repl @ 200k Km
Repl Cer GP with Etechno 7V GP 212k Km
Repl CCV


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 41 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 33 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group. Color scheme by ColorizeIt!
Logo by pixeldecals.com