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 Post subject: Coolant system pressure when cold (again)
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:20 am 
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This happened to me about 4-5 years ago and is back. Last time, I had new ARP head bolts installed and it solved the problem... until now.
Here's what's happening:
I have noticed coolant loss and see dried coolant by the pressure cap.
I replaced the pressure cap for good measure. Problem persists.
In the morning, engine cold, I release the pressure cap and the re is no pressure as expected.
I then start the engine for a few seconds and check the pressure cap again, but this time, there is pressure built up. Engine still cold.

As a side note, as stated above, this same thing happened before, which led me to replace the head bolts with ARP bolts. After the rebuild, there was never pressure in the coolant system when cold, even while running the engine for a few minutes while still cold. Pressure would build up normally, as expected, when the engine warmed up. But over the past few months, I have noticed the cold coolant pressure issue coming back.

Any thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: Coolant system pressure when cold (again)
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:15 pm 
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Did you get the head resurfaced?

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 Post subject: Re: Coolant system pressure when cold (again)
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:58 pm 
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I'm pretty sure they did not resurface them. The work was done by Darron at John's 4x4 in Boulder, CO. The work by Darron was satisfactory (though I found a bunch of loose bolts when I got the car back), but the customer service manager was the worst communicator (was quoted a week to complete, but took over a month with little to no communication as to the progress).

This was about 40k miles ago and about 4.5 years ago.

Is this as simple as re-tourquing the head bolts every once in a while?

Thanks,
Aras

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 Post subject: Re: Coolant system pressure when cold (again)
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:48 pm 
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Being the aluminum head is trapped in a steel / iron cage, and has a different rate and quantity of thermal expansion-contraction cycle, it's possible if they were overtorqued, that the aluminum could become displaced by compression and the studs become loose, but IMO it's really really unlikely.

It's more likely that when the studs were installed, deposits left by the original leak, were trapped and sealed. Over time these deposits were dissolved and have allowed the leak to return.

Since you are already going to need a new timing belt kit just to get to the head studs, it would be sensible to pull the head, new head gasket, and know for sure you have a good solid ride.


Edit: The issue of being so long at the dealer establishment probably has to do with shop management, and working on jobs that they can make better book time. ($)

I think you would be money and time ahead .. .. Since you already know the mechanic that's CAPABLE of the job, .. to persuade him to do the job outside of his work over the course of a couple, maybe 3 or so, weekends. A "what would it take to get you to do this" Kind of thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Coolant system pressure when cold (again)
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:08 pm 
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GordnadoCRD wrote:
Being the aluminum head is trapped in a steel / iron cage, and has a different rate and quantity of thermal expansion-contraction cycle, it's possible if they were overtorqued, that the aluminum could become displaced by compression and the studs become loose, but IMO it's really really unlikely.

It's more likely that when the studs were installed, deposits left by the original leak, were trapped and sealed. Over time these deposits were dissolved and have allowed the leak to return.

Since you are already going to need a new timing belt kit just to get to the head studs, it would be sensible to pull the head, new head gasket, and know for sure you have a good solid ride.


Edit: The issue of being so long at the dealer establishment probably has to do with shop management, and working on jobs that they can make better book time. ($)

I think you would be money and time ahead .. .. Since you already know the mechanic that's CAPABLE of the job, .. to persuade him to do the job outside of his work over the course of a couple, maybe 3 or so, weekends. A "what would it take to get you to do this" Kind of thing.

yep^^^^^
OP said head studs installed.. but no mention if the head was actually removed and a new HG was installed on a CLEAN block and head, or if the liners still had a 'within spec' installed height.. Just screwing in stronger hardware, IMHO is a short term gig.. unless it's done within a few miles of 'letting go'.. That would take a miracle to catch it in the first place.

Hg's aren't particularly corrosion proof, nor the block! When high acidic combustion gases get in between the steel layers, or on top of the block... Rust starts. Rust also 'grows', making it impossible to re-clamp with any amount of consistency. And like Gordnado said, this will eventually get 'worked out' (I believe) as the head moves around... and viola'... leaks again.

Edit; if the head was indeed removed, and everything checked out and cleaned... well, nothing seems 'forever' on this engine... and you may have other things needing checked! Cracks in the head, cracks in the liner, block surface, sunk liner, and like Gordnado said about an overwhelmed aluminum head to a possible over-torque.

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 Post subject: Re: Coolant system pressure when cold (again)
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:15 pm 
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If you pull the head, be sure and have it pressure tested and checked for flatness across the mating surface.
There have been a few reports of cracked heads. :(
While it is not recommended to resurface these heads due to the fact they have special hard nickel coating on the mating surface, it can be done, but it may require going to a thicker head gasket depending on how much is milled off the head to compensate for the loss of metal... :juggle:

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 Post subject: Re: Coolant system pressure when cold (again)
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:59 pm 
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Here are the pics from the original repair, FYI.
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

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 Post subject: Re: Coolant system pressure when cold (again)
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:04 pm 
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Look at the liners along the exhaust side of your block. Now look at how this compares to how they 'appear' to be on the intake side. I'm talking about how high they set in the block. It really stands out on the rear cylinder.
Image
I'll be the first to say that pictures can be deceiving; angles, shadows, lighting can all be misleading.
But just looking at them sure seems to me the exhaust side seems lower than the intake side.
Only way to really know is if you measure them. They must be at least level (zero protrusion) up to .0019 inch 'above' the deck. VmSpecialist recently told me to even push this to .0025 inch.

My engine had the exact same thing. 2 of my liners were 'sunk' below the minimum height, along the exhaust side. Not much, but definitely lower than the block. .001 inch below.
Here's a pic of mine showing .001 below deck surface
Image
This is of a level, or 'zero' measurement
Image

Measuring liner protrusion is a VERY important thing to do whenever the head is off. The only time any 'measuring' is mentioned in the service manual, is when fitting new liners. Which of course is important. Just as important is to check them whenever the head is off.
Liners can 'settle', or work-in over time..The lands where the shim spacer(which is soft brass) can and do erode... and lose their set height. This raised portion (designated under 'A' in illustration, but this pic is without a shim... so it's actually below deck height here) is the first and main source of sealing the cylinder, sealing combustion from escaping out under the HG, or down past the liner itself and directly into the coolant. I've worked on just about every brand of wet liner type diesels, and not one is immune from this occurrence.
Image
^^^^ This is a poor picture from the fsm.. it's confusing because of the 'shape' of the liner they show. The shaded part of the liner seems to continue on where a fast moving piston would not appreciate it.. :roll:
anyway, the proper shim placed on the ledge would set the height @ 'A' to a minimum of zero, to a suggested height of (let's just call it .002 inch)
All my diesels, no matter the displacement, or brand, all seem to share a .002 inch spec in this area.. and as long as they are STILL above deck height, there is no problem. The head gets re installed.
So, I'd sure recommend that this check is performed to confirm your liners are within spec. Now's the time to fix it if it's warranted!!!
Measure around each cylinder at 4 places.. Vm said not to worry too much about 'uneveness'.. say one side being .001 different than it's opposite... as long as the LOWEST PART is no less than 'zero' @ deck surface.

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 Post subject: Re: Coolant system pressure when cold (again)
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:35 pm 
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Look at the exhaust side of the #2 cylinder block surface.
You can clearly see the results of where the original head bolts failed to keep the head clamped tight enough to prevent water from seeping it's way from the coolant passage, to the cylinder..
It would also appear that there was insufficient antifreeze, from the amount of rust between the cylinder and the water passage hole.
Anyone can see that the failure did not go from the cylinder to the coolant, but the other direction, and in fact it (probably before the ARP installation) has started at the #1 cylinder as well, but hasn't reached the cylinder fire ring.
Whether this was due to original head bolt failure, too thin of gasket failure, or a combination of the two, I don't know a way to tell, but clearly, there was an original leak, that was temporarily(?) solved by installation of ARP studs. I'd say a 5 year reprieve is a pretty good patch!
I don't see any place on the block/liner surface that a proper cleaning and fine wire brushing wouldn't put into good condition to service, with a new head gasket (2 hole) with the ARP studs.
DON'T WIRE BRUSH THE PISTON TOPS!!!!!! chemical cleaner + rag clean only. (carb cleaner) They have a treated surface that minimizes carbon buildup. Anything abrasive will destroy it.

Reading again, I may have misunderstood your original post, where Rancherman caught the possibility.
You mentioned in your first post, when the original problem happened, you installed ARP studs, and the problem went away, until now. Nothing was mentioned of installing a new head gasket at that time. Your second post with pics leads me to believe this was actually the case. If so, more investigation would be appropriate, including noting what thickness head gasket was used, and measurements of liner protrusion as Rancherman has indicated.

As you have photos of the breakdown, do you also have photos of the same surfaces during assembly? Was any Copper-Kote or similar used?

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 Post subject: Re: Coolant system pressure when cold (again)
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:59 pm 
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Wow, what great replies. Thank you!

I looked back through old texts and emails and found that the gasket was replaced. I can only assume that they cleaned (maybe wire brushed) the head prior to reassembly given the other attention to detail and reputation of Darron the technician. According to their responses, after re-assembly, he noticed a rough idle and sonic-cleaned the injectors which remedied the issue.

From invoice:
Cylinder Head Gasket(s) - Replace
Remove and Replace components as required to access and install materials, and/or perform needed service, adjustments as required.  Additional fluids may be required to complete this service.  Retest and verify repair as required.  Perform final road test where applicable.
  Arp Head Studs 1.00 Units          
  5166481-AA - Cylinder Head Gasket 1.00 Units     
  68048953AA - OEM Chrysler HOAT Antifreeze 2.00 Units
  5143080 - Cylinder Head Gasket Set 1.00 Units
  Labor                  
               
               
         
Timing Belt - Replace
Remove and Replace components as required to access and install materials, and/or perform needed service, adjustments as required.  Retest and verify repair as required.  Perform final road test where applicable.
  25-061130 - Serpentine Belt 1.00 Units          
  5142573 - Timing Belt Pulley 2.00 Units         
  5142985 - Mopar Waterpump 1.00 Units          
  5142798 - Belt Tensioner 1.00 Units
  5142579 - Timing Belt 1.00 Units
  Labor   

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 Post subject: Re: Coolant system pressure when cold (again)
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:33 pm 
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Likely they selected the same head gasket thickness as your engine had originally. I do not support this practice. Measuring the liner protrusion and piston protrusion is important to ensure that they are not below-deck, but it is my experience that installing the two-hole gasket on ALL engines as instructed by VM Specialist is the answer to increasing head sealing (with ARP studs and Copper Kote) and also possibly preventing valve "kissing" should the timing not be perfectly within spec but not enough out to cause rocker damage.

I think you did VERY well in getting another 5 years out of it if they didn't change the thickness of the gasket, and we don't know for certain how they torqued the studs either. Much of what you have is reusable, so this job can be done now a lot faster. I would strongly suggest when the head is removed, that all 16 valves are swapped out with fresh and lapped in, so that there isn't a question of the metal reaching the fatigue limit and failing on you down the road.

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 Post subject: Re: Coolant system pressure when cold (again)
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:13 am 
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Ah, yes, I forgot that they also replaced the rockers with new ones at no cost, like the ultrasonic injector cleaning. Not sure about the valves. They felt bad for it taking so long.

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 Post subject: Re: Coolant system pressure when cold (again)
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:08 am 
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what if, what if, what if;
Pondering something.. and this may be way out in left field; My engine had lower liner height all along the exhaust side of the block. Some were 'just' within minimum spec, some were worse.

This block mirrors what mine looked like as well.. exhaust side leakage. Without measuring, I won't say for sure this is also what happened to this one.

Now for my question/statement; lots of posts in here stating the row of bolts were looser to remove during a head gasket R and R. This is the row that is immediate to where my liners were lower than the intake side. Half my liners were actually below deck, half were level.
What happens when the preload is lost on a fastener? It becomes 'loose(r)'. All I'm implying is, if my liners all were installed at a positive height, and this height was 'lost' from thermal breakdown, erosion, or just plain squished... the PRELOAD is reduced, and the clamping force reflected back up through the fastener is also reduced. Resulting in that row of bolts taking less torque to remove..
Wild swing I know, but going from a .002 raised liner, to a .000 level liner is going to remove .002 inch of preload, or stretch on that bolt.. 'maybe'... it isn't the bolt's fault after all?
Vmspecialist told me to 'push' the installed height of these liners.. up to .0025 inch. I'm thinking they've seen a lot of 'sunk' liners over the years, and recommend this added height to add a few years service?? This particular design engine (or the materials used) may be just prone to not 'holding specs' in this area!!

Gordnado; when I look at corrosion such as we see on this deck.. it's the acidic combustion gasses headed out.. and even if the coolant system was filled with pure oil, it's going to corrode where ever the gasses displaces the coolant.. When I took out my liners, I saw the corrosion was only along the top part of the coolant jacket.. Go5 is fantastic stuff for 'whole system protection' but even this is asking too much for localized 'hot spots' :) Yes, the best coolant is paramount here!!!

Geordi;
How does going with a thicker gasket, that is flat, parallel surface, and is totally incompressible (except for that thin layer of rubbery coating) seal any differently than a thinner one?

The only time this MIGHT work is if the difference these gaskets is the thickness of that coating.. not the actual steel shim(s) I can't believe the difference in the 3 available gaskets are based on how thick a soft coating is. Our gaskets have 3 layers of steel. 2 thinner outer layers, Possibly a harder type steel, (stainless?) and the 'variable' center layer. This is the layer that 'should' have the different thickness according to it's final designed thickness.

1. Take a 1 hole gasket, on a properly set up block and liner, and a brand new cylinder head. Torque the studs to recommended spec.

2. remove this head, and install a 2 hole gasket. repeat the torqueing of the head once again.


3. There will be NO difference on clamping pressure between the 2. Even directly on top of the liner itself, the amount of 'bite' (seal) will be the same.
4. the ONLY thing that can change the amount of 'bite' or seal in this particular instance, is how much the liner protrudes up out of the block... and INTO the flat gasket surface. Thick or thin gasket, it is flat, and if the liner sticks up .002, then it's going to bite into the gasket exactly .002 inch. regardless of how many holes it has
Please explain how a taller gasket makes a better seal in this case.

If these gaskets were 'soft fuzzy' gaskets, that needed to have a lot of flexibility to fill deep gouges, pits, etc.... then YES. Thicker would be better...

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2006 KJ CRD, bought 9/11/14, 70,500 miles. Circulating Rotella T6 5w-40
11-3-14 oem stat installed
11-5-14 gen II FH installed.
Sasquatch elbow kit, samcos, GDE eco FT. 11-26-14
80,500 miles, engine is disassembled, awaiting parts 3/18
Budget?? Sure! 'Everything I have'.
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 Post subject: Re: Coolant system pressure when cold (again)
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:07 pm 
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Well, at this point, I'm not sure if I want to spend another $3,000 to have someone do this work again or to sell it off. Not sure if I'd get more money from a dealership who doesn't know i have this issue, or to sell it to someone here with full disclosure, knowing the work that was done previously and what the issue currently is. The dealership would probably just wholesale it out due to the mileage (130k)
Thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: Coolant system pressure when cold (again)
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:22 pm 
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arasb wrote:
Well, at this point, I'm not sure if I want to spend another $3,000 to have someone do this work again or to sell it off. Not sure if I'd get more money from a dealership who doesn't know i have this issue, or to sell it to someone here with full disclosure, knowing the work that was done previously and what the issue currently is. The dealership would probably just wholesale it out due to the mileage (130k)
Thoughts?


I agree it'll be another 3k or more... that part does suck.... but 'giving it away' also COSTS!!!
Fixing it up FOR YOU makes sense. You'll have a lot of miles of service. For $3k, you should be able to rack up another 100k.. until the next tb procedure..
getting a newer vehicle to replace this with will cost you a lot more per 100k miles just in depreciation alone.
Selling it 'as is' will sure get you 'out'.. but at what cost? Depends on what you replace it with! Fixing it up to sell as a 'good runner', you'll be lucky to get your money back on this fix.

It's bad enough fixing it in our own garages.. but if you have to take it to a pro somewhere all the time, is going to 'cost' a bunch.
I think most in here have made this vehicles a 'hobby' or a pet project; 'darn the costs'..

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2006 KJ CRD, bought 9/11/14, 70,500 miles. Circulating Rotella T6 5w-40
11-3-14 oem stat installed
11-5-14 gen II FH installed.
Sasquatch elbow kit, samcos, GDE eco FT. 11-26-14
80,500 miles, engine is disassembled, awaiting parts 3/18
Budget?? Sure! 'Everything I have'.
New "Pet" name for My Jeep; 'Soul Sucker'


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 Post subject: Re: Coolant system pressure when cold (again)
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:42 pm 
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The way I look at it, I could possibly get $3,300 for it as a trade in at a dealer (maybe). I'd be probably replacing it with a Honda Pilot since I need the same cargo storage (cubic foot is similar with rear seats down) since I regularly transport a lot of large musical instruments. I would consider a Honda Element, but they only come in a 4cylinder and I love power. The V6 in the Pilot is highly modifyable for more performance. I've looked at other diesels, but none are the same as this little VM. This is one of the hardest decisions I've made. I LOVE this CRD. :(

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 Post subject: Re: Coolant system pressure when cold (again)
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:24 pm 
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Geez... "He loves his CRD"... :roll:
Welcome to the club!! Love/hate.. its all the same with this Jeep. My 'name' for mine is Soul Sucker.. This thing won't beat ME.. I am Spartacus! :BANANA:

Convincing my financial advisor is another issue..

Good luck with your decision. It's too late for me!!

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2006 KJ CRD, bought 9/11/14, 70,500 miles. Circulating Rotella T6 5w-40
11-3-14 oem stat installed
11-5-14 gen II FH installed.
Sasquatch elbow kit, samcos, GDE eco FT. 11-26-14
80,500 miles, engine is disassembled, awaiting parts 3/18
Budget?? Sure! 'Everything I have'.
New "Pet" name for My Jeep; 'Soul Sucker'


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 Post subject: Re: Coolant system pressure when cold (again)
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:22 pm 
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rancherman wrote:
Geez... "He loves his CRD"... :roll:
Welcome to the club!! Love/hate.. its all the same with this Jeep. My 'name' for mine is Soul Sucker.. This thing won't beat ME.. I am Spartacus! :BANANA:

Convincing my financial advisor is another issue..

Good luck with your decision. It's too late for me!!



Yep I'm in for the long haul, the CRD is completely addictive and just as abusive to your wallet. Got a junk yard rear end waiting for me to rebuild with a posi this winter. Just empty every pocket someone recently told me.

Agreed good luck, you'll get support here no matter what. You never really leave the CRD, you have been scared.

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Purchased 2006 LIberty CRD 82K 01/16
SS Cat Back Exhaust, Full EGR Delete,Provent, Michelin 245/70 R16 AT/2
Stock Tune, Serpentine Belt Service,160 Amp Alternator
10/17 96K, New Head, Injectors, ARP Studs, HDS T-Stat
04/18 99K, New Reman Trans
09/18 104K, Lift Pump
01/19 106K, OME Lift, Eaton TruTrac LSD in new rebuilt diff


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 Post subject: Re: Coolant system pressure when cold (again)
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:31 pm 
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Posts: 42
Location: Fort Collins, CO
Lol, more love than hate.

I haven’t looked too much into it yet, but could I re torque the head bolts without removing the timing belt?

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2006 CRD Limited, ~130k miles, GDE Hot Tune and Eco tune, weeks101 Intake Elbow Kit, Samco Hoses, ARP Head Bolts, EHM, Straight Pipe, Factory Towing, 245/75R16 (no lift)


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 Post subject: Re: Coolant system pressure when cold (again)
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:47 pm 
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Location: Central GA
arasb wrote:
Lol, more love than hate.

I haven’t looked too much into it yet, but could I re torque the head bolts without removing the timing belt?

Nope! Won't happen; you have to completely remove the intake on this engine which houses both camshafts in order to gain access to the head bolts and this requires completely removing the timing belt and cam gears.
If it still has the OEM head bolts I believe they are stretch to yield bolts and must not be reused.
All head bolts should be replaced with new ARP head studs, nuts, and washers....a very good investment on these engines...

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05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited :JEEPIN:
Ironman Springs/Bilstein/Shocks
Yeti StgIV Hot Tune
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Carter Intank-pmp
2mic.Sec.Fuel Filter
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IronrockArms/wwdieselMount

98 Dodge Cummins 24 Valve


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