Coolant system pressure when cold (again)

arasb · **Posted:** Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:34 pm

As per my posts above, that has all been done. New ARP bolts, rockers, tc, wp, etc. 4.5 years and 40k miles ago. This is just reappearing, so I don't want to go through the $3k and one month in the shop again. Was hoping it would be a simple re-torque of the ARP bolts. Sadly, that is not the case.
Thanks though.

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:38 pm

Payment on a new Honda Pilot is how much per month? For how long?
The insurance for said Honda Pilot is how much more per month?
How many months will that $3300 cover?

VS

A CRD you really like. One that you KNOW what you've got. (the devil you know)
Insurance coverage that you choose, not that your finance company chooses.
Needs maintenance on a regular basis
Gets similar or better mileage as the Pilot.
Already has most if not all of the big $ mods.

I know which way i'd be leaning.
But then, many years ago, I really had a lust for new things, myself.
It's up to you and whomever in your life these decisions affect. Just work it out ahead of time, so there's no regrets later.

arasb · **Posted:** Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:11 am

I agree. All good points. It’s a hard decision and have gone back and forth all day.

Pilot would be a 2011 with 130k miles for $13k, so financing $10k is about $170-$200/mo which sucks for what I’d be getting (a slightly newer car with the same mileage as my crd)
And worse gas mileage than my crd (it’s a v6)
I’m very torn and sad since I’ve put money into it. It has issues, turn signal lever is broken so can’t safely signal. Interior lights turn on at random. Battery drain caused by same interior light issue. Head lights flicker when at a stop light and have replaced the alternator clutch a couple times. Ripped leather seats. Small stuff, but still.
I appreciate your help in my decision. I’m definitely taking it all to heart. I’ve owned this crd longer than any other vehicle.

geordi · **Posted:** Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:45 am

arasb wrote:

As per my posts above, that has all been done. New ARP bolts, rockers, tc, wp, etc. 4.5 years and 40k miles ago. This is just reappearing, so I don't want to go through the $3k and one month in the shop again. Was hoping it would be a simple re-torque of the ARP bolts. Sadly, that is not the case.
Thanks though.

Since you already have most of the mod parts, the cost is just the labor and travel if I was to do the work - I do valve and head gasket work in someone's driveway and the job is done in 2 days. Yes it would be expensive, but you get to be there for the whole process and it would be done right.

If these pictures are accurate though and the liners are below the deck... You may need more advanced help than I can offer, to shim the liners the pistons have to be removed and that means pulling the block.

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Sat Oct 06, 2018 3:25 am

That is a big if..

And if that's the case, are they imbalanced because of block machining, because of liner machining, because of shim compaction or some other thing?

rancherman · **Posted:** Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:15 am

GordnadoCRD wrote:

That is a big if..

And if that's the case, are they imbalanced because of block machining, because of liner machining, because of shim compaction or some other thing?

Worse case scenario would be a ~ .002 inch 'relax' of the bolts when either of these^^^ happens.. Not really enough is it to cause the 'loose(r)' row of bolts all in itself.. "Add to the gravity of the situation" is probably how I should've ran with that!! Most of my 'other brand' service manuals say a 'sunk liner' situation is from poor quality coolant<erodes away shims/liner step/block step.. as well as CONTINOUS IMPROPER WARM UP PROCEDURE (which may also be extrapolated into running this engine with a faulty thermostat) The stickler is it takes a LOT of miles or hours to see a sunk liner from coolant quality issues.. :banghead:

Our jeeps haven't begun to live long enough!!! Many have, however, been run with a cold 'stat.
I've watched countless 'diesel owners' of every brand 'out there'... jump In their vehicles, start it up... drop it into gear... hammer down. All within milliseconds of when the door is closed and they are buckled up!! Diesels are tough ol birds , but ya gotta give them time to warm up/ thermo balance!!! After that... you can Banzai all day long

That row of suspect bolts runs smack dab between the exhaust valves.. probably the highest concentration of heat on the whole head.. Those poor things gotta be tortured.. and lose their elasticity.

rancherman · **Posted:** Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:16 am

GordnadoCRD wrote:

That is a big if..

And if that's the case, are they imbalanced because of block machining, because of liner machining, because of shim compaction or some other thing?

Worse case scenario would be a ~ .002 inch 'relax' of the bolts when either of these^^^ happens.. Not really enough is it to cause the 'loose(r)' row of bolts all in itself.. "Add to the gravity of the situation" is probably how I should've ran with that!! Most of my 'other brand' service manuals say a 'sunk liner' situation is from poor quality coolant<erodes away shims/liner step/block step.. as well as CONTINOUS IMPROPER WARM UP PROCEDURE (which may also be extrapolated into running this engine with a faulty thermostat) The stickler is it takes a LOT of miles or hours to see a sunk liner from coolant quality issues.. :banghead:

Our jeeps haven't begun to live long enough!!! Many have, however, been run with a cold 'stat.
I've watched countless 'diesel owners' of every brand 'out there'... jump In their vehicles, start it up... drop it into gear... hammer down. All within milliseconds of when the door is closed and they are buckled up!! Diesels are tough ol birds , but ya gotta give them time to warm up/ thermo balance!!! After that... you can Banzai all day long

That row of suspect bolts runs smack dab between the exhaust valves.. probably the highest concentration of heat on the whole head.. Those poor things gotta be tortured.. and lose their elasticity.

arasb · **Posted:** Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:33 am

While I do have a crappy inline thermostat, if anything it is slightly hotter (195 if I recall from 6-7 years ago but I could be wrong).
Also, I don’t let it warm up more than a minute or so, but I don’t romp on it until it’s warmed up. My wife, however was bad at this when she was driving my car for about a month or so a few years back. This issue, however didn’t start happening again until just recently, and she wasn’t really flooring it, just driving like normal, while I practically idle for a few blocks, then drive normal until it warms up. Only then do I mash the pedal. And I definitely drive this thing hard. Every day. That’s what I love about it. The sound and power. Puts a smile on my face every day to and from work.
I changed back to the eco tune from the hot since I tend to get slightly better fuel economy and because I got a letter of complaint through the city from a citizen saying that I was ‘rolling coal’ (I remember the incident, I was being a jerk and smoking out the family behind me a few stop lights in a row cause I was in a hurry). The city I lived in has a strict no ‘rolling coal’ law.
Thanks again for all your input and help.

rancherman · **Posted:** Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:56 am

I'd say your warm up procedure is about as good as it can be. I'm lucky, I can 'drive' nice and easy until it's warmed up. I don't have any 'combat style' conditions to deal with; No freeway on- ramp 100 feet from my driveway!!
Cool-down is probably just as important!! As I've seen guys roar away with a stone cold diesel... We've all seen operators whip off the boulevard.. turn the engine off before the vehicle is even stopped.. They run into the gas station for a cup of coffee.. I stand there listening to their engine snap crackle and pop...

These issues are really a very cumulative/long term thing, which makes it hard to nail down on actual cause.

you mentioned your inline 'stat. Lets get away from that, shall we?? :wink:

Especially in your short hop/ urban type drive!! Yes, they'll maintain the temp @ the stat outlet.. but do very little for the VERY IMPORTANT internal circulation that helps with even-ness during the warm up cycle! You may have zeroed in on what has happened!
Heads expand faster than the block they sit on. They 'move' and grow. The gasket can't as much, it's steel. Something has to 'slide'.
Throw in your stuck open stat.. and your inline stat will keep the outlet temp 'normal'.. but the bypass in the old stuck stat is 'off' or at least shut down a little, creating possibly a too fast warm up or over heated head.
Head gaskets always lose in this battle of friction..
Just a thought^^^ :rockon:

Edit; please remember to keep my 'sunk liner' scenario as a 'possibility'. Until it's measured, this is all speculation, and a 'chance' that it's truly happened.!! Point is MEASURE AND VERIFY!!!

The factory stat is ok.. for a couple years. LOL Mine was shot in less than 60k miles.

There is an excellent long term stat HDS 001(?) for the guys and gals in this for the long term.

arasb · **Posted:** Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:06 am

For most of the life of the Jeep, I had a 3-5 minute 1 mile work commute.
About 4 months ago I moved and now have a 30 minute 17 mile commute (no highways, just residential and a stretch of 40mph roadway)

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sat Oct 06, 2018 3:49 pm

Everything rancherman stated is relevant and should be considered. But that in-line thermostat is believed by quite a few to have caused several blown head gaskets and possibly a couple of cracked heads as well. Some will defend its use, but unfortunately there is no definitive way to prove that its use is detrimental other than looking at the design of the engines coolant system itself and what can happen when you run this engine with a failed OEM thermostat with the bypass circuit closed off and a closed in-line thermostat which will limit proper coolant flow through the head during the critical warmup period and may cause some serious "hot spots".

Best options are to use either a good fully functioning OEM thermostat (no Crown Junk) or one of Jeff's a.k. "Turbo-Diesel-Freak" H.D.S. Model 001 thermostats.
There is plenty of reading on this forum on this subject as it has been debated and discussed in detail if you want to do a search.
Bottom line, In-line thermostats are simply not worth the risks and possible consequences when used on this engine's coolant system. :2cents:

vwroad87 · **Posted:** Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:40 pm

I've been following carefully. Having done my head with arp studs as per this forum I was getting shaky and paranoid. Did I double triple check my torques, was the new head perfectly okay, did i use the right HG...

And now I read about an inline stat. Not saying that's what happened but given how "tight" these motor's seem to be to other specs I'm glad I have an HDS stat. The anxiety level is going down. I have a couple long trips planned and nothing worse than the constant "what was that!" feeling going down the road.

Hope the OP finds peace with whatever decision they make regarding the CRD.

rancherman · **Posted:** Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:00 pm

WWDiesel wrote:

Everything rancherman stated is relevant and should be considered. But that in-line thermostat is believed by quite a few to have caused several blown head gaskets and possibly a couple of cracked heads as well. Some will defend its use, but unfortunately there is no definitive way to prove that its use is detrimental other than looking at the design of the engines coolant system itself and what can happen when you run this engine with a failed OEM thermostat with the bypass circuit closed off and a closed in-line thermostat which will limit proper coolant flow through the head during the critical warmup period and may cause some serious "hot spots".

Best options are to use either a good fully functioning OEM thermostat (no Crown Junk) or one of Jeff's a.k. "Turbo-Diesel-Freak" H.D.S. Model 001 thermostats.
There is plenty of reading on this forum on this subject as it has been debated and discussed in detail if you want to do a search.
Bottom line, In-line thermostats are simply not worth the risks and possible consequences when used on this engine's coolant system. :2cents:

The misery of an inline, we don't know how 'bad' the stat is that is STILL installed.. Is it getting worse? (more and more open) which means less and less bypass for internal circulation. I'm assuming the stat closes the bypass off at the same rate it opens for passing coolant to the radiator.

It's difficult to put detrimental damage on a 'per mile' basis.. So one guys 'no problem' for say, the past 1 or 2 years, with an inline could be the next guys 'worst nightmare' ie; One person that has an inline stat and this engine is 'cold started' several times a day, and put less than 10 miles on it. Might rack up 8, 9k miles per year..
Next guy would start his up in the morning, rack up 100's of miles before shutting it off... and puts 30k on his Jeep per year.
Which one will see 'issues' (cracks, scuffed gaskets..etc) first? I truly believe the first guy would. It went through 3x the cold start cycles. Per year, per mile.. I think it's the number of cycles that counts.

We have a cross flow head. cooler intake air is coming in one side, hot exhaust going out the other. One SIDE is going to expand faster than the other.. add this to the head-as-a-whole expanding faster than the block it's bolted to.
An engine with exhaust and intake on the same side tends to have a little tempering effect.. 'some'. We don't want that anyway!!... ports tend to be a lot smaller, and castings are thinner.. on those same- side designs. Think your engine is crowded NOW?? imagine it with the turbo and intake on the same side!!! :shock:

Add all these up, I'm seeing a great need to maintain a nice circulation within the head to keep this unevenness of temps moderated.
Also reinforces my statement of "proper heat up and cool down" And well maintained thermostat.

Can you imagine the thermal shock... on a zero degree day, and an engine with 900 degree combustion temps on one side of the cylinder wall is constantly getting 'washed' on the other side with almost zero degree coolant because the thermostat is stuck open??? brrrrr...

arasb · **Posted:** Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:21 am

After lots of reflection, I have decided that this CRD is the best vehicle for me and definitely my favorite vehicle I have owned.
Therefore, I will be getting it repaired by Geordi in my garage in the next couple weeks. Can't wait!
Cheers and thanks for all of the help.
Aras

Coolant system pressure when cold (again)

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