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 Post subject: Looking at buying a fixer-upper
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:34 pm 
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Location: Ontario
Hello there,

I'm looking to replace my VW TDI that just had an altercation with a deer. I like the idea of not destroying my back to work on things, more than 4" of clearance to rocks, and separate driveline components that won't all shred themselves at once. My first choice would honestly be another XJ but they're all rusted out in Ontario. Also, no diesels.

I found a 2005 KJ CRD in near-mint condition (only 214,000 KM, regular oil-based rust-proofing, all the options). It's being sold at a pretty good discount as the engine suddenly developed a problem on the trip home from passing a safety and emissions test.

I didn't do as much research on these engines as I should have when I went to check it out, but here's a brief video of it idling:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9tbG09-rGI

The owner said this happened while he was coming down a hill on the freeway. Luckily it was right near an exit, so he limped it home on the back roads approx 24 KM and parked it.

There is a Cummins 6BT making a small amount of noise in the background as the KJ needed a boost, but the knocking (which is really quite loud and deep in person) is 100% from the CRD. Once boosted it started up pretty easily. Aside from that the engine sounded like it was not running particularly rough or stumbling, although the RPM falters a little bit.

I have some theories and guesses and more information that I got from the seller but I'd rather not feed any bias as I really shouldn't speculate here.

Is this noise common of a particular failure?

Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Looking at buying a fixer-upper
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:22 pm 
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salad wrote:
Hello there,
I'm looking to replace my VW TDI that just had an altercation with a deer. I like the idea of not destroying my back to work on things, more than 4" of clearance to rocks, and separate driveline components that won't all shred themselves at once. My first choice would honestly be another XJ but they're all rusted out in Ontario. Also, no diesels.
I found a 2005 KJ CRD in near-mint condition (only 214,000 KM, regular oil-based rust-proofing, all the options). It's being sold at a pretty good discount as the engine suddenly developed a problem on the trip home from passing a safety and emissions test.
I didn't do as much research on these engines as I should have when I went to check it out, but here's a brief video of it idling:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9tbG09-rGI
The owner said this happened while he was coming down a hill on the freeway. Luckily it was right near an exit, so he limped it home on the back roads approx 24 KM and parked it.
There is a Cummins 6BT making a small amount of noise in the background as the KJ needed a boost, but the knocking (which is really quite loud and deep in person) is 100% from the CRD. Once boosted it started up pretty easily. Aside from that the engine sounded like it was not running particularly rough or stumbling, although the RPM falters a little bit.
I have some theories and guesses and more information that I got from the seller but I'd rather not feed any bias as I really shouldn't speculate here.
Is this noise common of a particular failure?
Thanks!

Hard to really dianoise from just listening to the youtube, but best guess would be broken rockers? It certainly is skipping.
Pulling the injectors and examining their tips one at a time could tell you if there is internal damage from a possible broken exhaust valve.
Otherwise, pulling the intake and possibly even the head will tell you for sure what the real issue is...
Keep us posted and we will help where we can....

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 Post subject: Re: Looking at buying a fixer-upper
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:23 am 
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Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:53 am
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failed exhaust valve in one cylinder likely

could be significant loonie outlay if head and or piston requires replacement

owning a 2.8 crd 13 years after manufacture is not for the faint of heart---you must be a true believer --and continue to sip the kool aid


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 Post subject: Re: Looking at buying a fixer-upper
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:54 am 
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pulsenpal wrote:
failed exhaust valve in one cylinder likely

could be significant loonie outlay if head and or piston requires replacement

owning a 2.8 crd 13 years after manufacture is not for the faint of heart---you must be a true believer --and continue to sip the kool aid


Yum more koolaid please :dizzy:

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 Post subject: Re: Looking at buying a fixer-upper
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:13 pm 
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Location: Ontario
I'm good with Kool-Aid, after all I'm still not turned off of Jeeps despite my XJ rusting and half and poured WAY too much time into VWs :lol:

I am concerned that you guys both mentioned the likelihood of a busted exhaust valve. I did some research on the broken rocker issue, that doesn't sound like TOO much of a pain in the arse to deal with. I can take a gamble but any serious chance of needing to replace the head would make this purchase impractical.

From what I remember reading the Timing Belt How-To, pulling injectors doesn't seem like it would be too much of a hassle. It looks as though they're pretty easy to access just by pulling the plastic engine cover off. Is there enough protrusion into the cylinder that this would be a realistic way to gauge if a valve is smashing around inside? If so, how long could one expect that job to take? It looks like I'd just need standard tools, standard encouraging vocabulary, and penetrating oil to get them out. Does this engine have one-time-use copper washers or cups that I should be concerned about if I'm just inspecting the injectors?

So, the extra information: Maintenance-wise the owner seems to be very conscious of the requirements. He commented that he refused to take the Jeep to the local dealership if he could avoid it since they literally only sold three CRDs and the techs were idiots. Exactly where he took it I don't recall, I think it was either a truck shop or a garage where they work on other diesels. Not a ton of diesels that aren't VWs here sport timing belts, however. It is in the middle of its second timing belt, so from what I can tell it is possible that it wasn't tightened properly and I guess could have slipped a tooth? Even though it hasn't hit it's mileage limit, the vehicle is 13 years old, so that belt could have been put on in 2010...

The other thing I was thinking about is that this guy really babied it. He kept boasting about how long his tires and brakes last and what good shape it's in. Which is great, except for "driving like a grandma": He relayed that he got laughed at by a mechanic when he brought it in reporting a lot of black smoke when he had to pass someone on the highway, as he normally is "very gentle".

I read on here that these things are programmed with a seriously aggressive EGR. It occurs to me this could have been caused by a chunk of broken off soot. The part of highway he was on when this happened is around the crest of a hill, so engine would have gone from under load to deceleration right before whatever broke broke. If I understand how the FCV works, I'm guessing that change in pressure in the intake combined with the flap moving about could have done broken a chunk free.

I really appreciate the suggestions. I realize that the only way to be sure is to tear it down, but this Jeep is sitting in some guy's driveway an hour and a half away :)

Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Looking at buying a fixer-upper
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:59 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2015 2:11 pm
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Location: markham, ontario
bad conrod bearing? 1st you need to check oil pressure ,, install oil pressure gauge,,


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 Post subject: Re: Looking at buying a fixer-upper
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:02 pm 
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running engine at more than idle could convert repairable status to absolute junk

to help isolate involved cylinder consider using temp gun on exhaust runners--the cold runner will identify malfunctioning cylinder

you may unplug the two wire injector actuator from suspect cylinder to confirm

also remove oil fill cap---excessive blowby may reflect holed piston

the engine head should be removed with little additional running--you will have some indication of failure sequence when cam housing cover is lifted and rockers are exposed

i am new here but posted photo link to a crd engine recently taken apart--the head is aluminum on these and small injuries render these heads unusable

click my profile and locate photo links

pulsenpal


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 Post subject: Re: Looking at buying a fixer-upper
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:19 pm 
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Don't bother opening the oil cap while it is running. You will not learn anything other than to not do that again, and that you now need a new shirt. You will cover whatever you are wearing in a fine oily mist. The vacuum pump discharges into the block, there is ALWAYS a lot of airflow, it isn't blowby.

Pulling the injectors isn't too terribly hard without removing everything else, if any of the tips look dented, then that is an indication of a valve failure. HOWEVER there is some good news: Valve failures really don't let the engine continue operating long enough to question what may have happened, they tend to freeze the motor rather quickly. It is MUCH more likely that over 100k miles with a functional EGR has instead doomed at least a few of the rockers and they have just chosen this moment to collapse. If the timing was not done with the pins, then the timing may not have "slipped" but may have instead just not been accurate and finally stretched itself past the still-able-to-function range and popped a couple rockers.

Bad combustion makes for very interesting noises, so no surprise there, but also not a lot of information. I'm the traveling CRD tech if you want my assistance, I've been to Canadia a few times for CRDs that needed my help. I don't mind getting paid in that funny money you have... It's a good picture of mum on some of those bills.

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 Post subject: Re: Looking at buying a fixer-upper
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:38 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:04 pm
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Location: Ontario
Thanks a lot for the feedback. Been extremely busy with work lately but this is still very much on my mind.

I've experienced the magic of "pressurized" valve covers before - VW TDI vacuum pump also exhausts in the rocker area, some of them will push the cap right off if it's not tight! Probably means there's a vacuum leak somewhere but hey.

I actually went prepared with a temp gun to check the exhaust manifold, but got cold feet after hearing that noise. Without a reasonable level of certainty I didn't want to let it run long enough to build up heat. As for the con rod bearing, the owner actually got an oil pressure gauge installed, and the level was fine (near the center of it - sorry I don't remember the actual number). I heard nothing through the stethoscope that would make me think vibrations were being passed through the block.

Geordi, what you say about survivability makes a lot of sense. It seems to me that >20KM with a busted valve rattling around in there should have done serious damage by now. As well I would expect a much rougher idle and some smoke if one of more exhaust valves were absent.

Here's what I'm thinking, if the owner wants to co-operate: Go back and yank the intake hose off of the FCV. If there's an exhaust-like puff OUT of it that should confirm something like exhaust valves not opening, which supports the idea of broken rockers, correct? If that's fine, disconnect electrical side of injectors to isolate one or more bad cylinders. For cylinder that stopped making The Bad Noise when its injector was disconnected, remove and inspect the tip for physical damage. If there is none, there is a very good chance that the valves, pistons, and liners should still be serviceable.

Are my above assumptions accurate?

Can the injectors on this engine be pulled without replacing any one-time-use parts like washers and so on? Straight R&R? Or am I going to need to get some consumables to put it back together?

I very much appreciate the offer of a visit, I may consider that in the future, but right now I'm still waiting on my stupid insurance company so my budget is very close to $0 at the moment ;)

Thanks guys!


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 Post subject: Re: Looking at buying a fixer-upper
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:19 pm 
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The injector does use a copper washer that is recommended to be replaced each time injector removed. You can get one at a time from ID parts.

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 Post subject: Re: Looking at buying a fixer-upper
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:12 pm 
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Cool, those look cheap enough.

Is anyone willing to weigh in on whether my plan sounds sane overall? Looks like there'll be one or two not-cold days coming up and I'd like to make the trip if I can!

Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: Looking at buying a fixer-upper
PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:39 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2015 2:11 pm
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Location: markham, ontario
to tell you the truth , i see what you mean , fixer, upper , that are all the same , i see lot of them in toronto , hamilton etc all been sitting in used car lots for years , look good outside , so you have lots or trips to do to check them out , remember they all need 5000$ CDN to go back on the road


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