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Turbo question
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=89906		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Romo [ Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Turbo question
Just wanted to say hi and introduce myself, long time follower and recent member.

I am trying to get a few ideas on what can be causing excessive black smoke under acceleration. My KJ is 2006 with about 134k miles on it. EGR is removed and it has a GDE Eco tune. I understand that what is excessive to one person might not be to someone else.

The turbo was checked for play and I did not notice movement, map sensor is clean, hoses are in good condition. The 2.5 that I had in Europe smoked considerably less.

Ideas and suggestions are greatly appreciated, I am also fully aware that it might be time for a new turbo.
Author:  APC9199 [ Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Turbo question
Which generation of fuel filter head do you have installed? Black plugs = Gen1, Blue plug = Gen2. The Gen1's are known to leak air into the fuel system and cause problems with combustion. When is the last time the fuel filter was changed? Have you had the injectors tested for return flow? There are quite a few possibilities here, and you will have to narrow it down one by one unfortunately. Check those things first and report back with answers. We'll go from there!
Author:  Romo [ Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Turbo question
I recently did a fuel filter change, say 200 miles ago. The plugs are black, making them a gen1. Upon closer inspection I noticed a leak on injector one, that could be a part of my issue. Prior to today I did not notice any leaks but jeep still smoked. I will begin with replacing the injector seals on all four injectors and see what happens. Thanks for the help APC.
Author:  My66dodge [ Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Turbo question
Does it lack power or make a popping / knocking noise when running? That would be work rockers. Black smoke is from excessive fuel or not enough air. Fuel head or filter problems would be lack of power and no smoke
Author:  Romo [ Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Turbo question
The funny thing is it runs just fine, maybe a bit slow at quarter throttle but its a diesel. If you step on it, it goes.... No popping or knocking.

I ordered the O-rings and new crush washers from Id Parts. Once they come it I will pull the injectors and get the new seals in.

Do you guys think that changing the fuel filter head makes any sense?
Author:  APC9199 [ Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Turbo question
My66dodge wrote:
Does it lack power or make a popping / knocking noise when running? That would be work rockers. Black smoke is from excessive fuel or not enough air. Fuel head or filter problems would be lack of power and no smoke


Sometimes it is best to defer to the people who have been driving these things for a decade rather than assuming based on your past experiences. I don't doubt for one second that you are a well seasoned mechanic and have WAY more time under the hood than me on way more engines than I have ever worked on...but I, and many others here, are VERY experienced with this motor. The Gen1 fuel filter head has been proven to be the problem in DOZENS (if not more) of low power/black smoke/hesitation situations. It may not solve the problem in every situation involving those symptoms but it is free to check and relatively cheap to replace, versus the alternatives which can take a lot of time and money just to inspect. Also, the OP did not mention any other problems in their original post which would have suggested rockers, which is a much more complicated thing to check any way you look at it.

To the OP, definitely get that injector seal replaced. When you get it up and running again, do one more test on the filter head. Pump the primer on it until it is hard and open the bleeder to let any air out. Do this until there is nothing but solid fuel with no air. Start and run the vehicle for a few minutes (go to the grocery store or something). Stop the vehicle and check to see if the bleeder is soft again, and if so, check it for air. If you have air again, then you have an air ingress leak in the system that needs to be eliminated.
Author:  Romo [ Wed May 15, 2019 1:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Turbo question
Got an update, replaced all the injector seals and crush washers. Cylinder 4 was in pretty bad shape, looked like it was leaking for a while. Checked the primer per the instructions and it did not show symptoms associated with unsealed fuel system. Will try again this weekend any other ideas ? Still get a significant amount of smoke under acceleration....

Thanks !
Author:  TKB4 [ Wed May 15, 2019 6:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Turbo question
It would have been prudent to have the injectors checked by a bosch shop while you had them out so as to not have to get another set of copper washers and or seals or at least check the fuel return before changing the seals then injector problems would have been the known cause or eliminated.
You should be able to check the OBDII data to get an idea of turbo boost and Air flow. You might also check for vacuum leaks .
Its also possible there could be a leak in intercooler.
Author:  WWDiesel [ Wed May 15, 2019 11:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Turbo question
Excessive black smoke when accelerating is usually always a sign of low boost or overfueling. Air / fuel ratio issue.
Easiest one to troubleshoot first is MAP sensor bad. (Sending incorrect signal to ECM causing low boost or overfueling)
First thing I would do is replace the MAP sensor with the GM part number Bosch unit. GM PN: 55206797
ID Parts and many others sell this MAP sensor for a little over 20 bucks. https://www.idparts.com/map-sensor-libe ... -2859.html

Next:
Starting at turbo checking it and variable vane operation (full stroke), boost hoses & intercooler (CAC) for leaks, , etc...
Boost pressure gauge or a way of reading boost pressure using the OBD port would be a most helpful diagnostic tool.

Overfueling:
As others stated, injectors would have to be checked by an Injector Service with the proper equipment for testing them.

:SOMBRERO:
Author:  Romo [ Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Turbo question
Thanks for all for the input, so I changed the MAP sensor, replaced the intercooler hoses, put on a new intake elbow, installed good low mileage injectors. The shaft does operate normally when the vacuum line is disconnected.

At this point everything points to the turbo. Jeep idles fine, no smoke on startup and moderate driving. Once you attempt to accelerate black smoke appears.
Other than checking shaft play on the turbo is there anything else that can be done before I rip the turbo apart????
Thanks again!
Author:  WWDiesel [ Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Turbo question
Romo wrote:
Thanks for all for the input, so I changed the MAP sensor, replaced the intercooler hoses, put on a new intake elbow, installed good low mileage injectors. The shaft does operate normally when the vacuum line is disconnected.

At this point everything points to the turbo. Jeep idles fine, no smoke on startup and moderate driving. Once you attempt to accelerate black smoke appears.
Other than checking shaft play on the turbo is there anything else that can be done before I rip the turbo apart????
Thanks again!

Read the actual boost with either a gauge or using an ELM Bluetooth in the OBD port and Torque Pro APP.
Numbers can tell you a lot! :D
Author:  Romo [ Sun Aug 25, 2019 12:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Turbo question
So it ends up smoking if there is any type of boost present. At 15 pounds and full throttle I create a block wide smoke screen.
Author:  Romo [ Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Turbo question
Did a few more runs and I keep getting the P0234 code (overboost). The max turbo boost pressure reaches 22.5 psi.

I did some reading on this and it looks like a few folks had the same issues and narrowed it down to the improper vane operation.

Will taking the turbo off and cleaning the internals help? or should I just go with a new turbo...
Author:  TKB4 [ Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Turbo question
It may help. One person found that even though theirs passes the actuator vacuum test that the control arm was broken and thus vanes were not opening as they should even though arm was moving but I would think that underboost rather than overboost should be the result unless the vanes stick open. I guess its always possible that the new map sensor was defective.
Question: Is it still running alright? Is there a significant decrease in fuel mileage?
seems like if the turbo is able to create that much boost that its ok and more of a control issue.
Hopefully others will help.
Author:  GordnadoCRD [ Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Turbo question
Before digging into that, check that your boost solenoid and vacuum valve controller near to the power steering reservoir is correctly connected, free of leaks, and the vacuum reservoir also has no leaks, and that the vacuum lines also have no leaks.

When I had that code, that was the issue.
Author:  flash7210 [ Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Turbo question
Romo wrote:
So it ends up smoking if there is any type of boost present. At 15 pounds and full throttle I create a block wide smoke screen.

Romo wrote:
Did a few more runs and I keep getting the P0234 code (overboost). The max turbo boost pressure reaches 22.5 psi.

I did some reading on this and it looks like a few folks had the same issues and narrowed it down to the improper vane operation.

Will taking the turbo off and cleaning the internals help? or should I just go with a new turbo...

These two statements don’t go together

Underboost (p0299) will absolutely cause black smoke.

Overboost (p0234) will not create smoke but will force the engine to go into limp mode with reduced power.

So, what was this big cloud of smoke? Black, white, gray, or other?
15 psi of boost should not creating huge clouds of black smoke even if it is underboost.

Possible causes:
1. Dirty turbo with sticky vanes
2. Bad turbo vacuum solenoids
3. Faulty MAP sensor
4. Faulty MAP sensor wiring or loose connection
5. Internal engine damage such as worn/broken rocker arms
Author:  Romo [ Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Turbo question
Thanks for the feedback, the cloud of smoke is black and tends to be even more pronounced when I accelerate from a roll.

I recently installed a new map sensor and that did not change anything.

Is there a way to correctly diagnose the other possible causes ?

Not sure of the internal engine damage, would the engine not run well,?

When I disconnect the map sensor it throws a code, which suggests it’s working properly... correct ?

How to diagnose the vacuum solenoid?

Thanks again !!
Author:  GordnadoCRD [ Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Turbo question
Romo wrote:
Thanks for the feedback, the cloud of smoke is black and tends to be even more pronounced when I accelerate from a roll.

I recently installed a new map sensor and that did not change anything.

Is there a way to correctly diagnose the other possible causes ?

Not sure of the internal engine damage, would the engine not run well,?

When I disconnect the map sensor it throws a code, which suggests it’s working properly... correct ? Not really. What it suggests is that the ECM has verified that there is one present. The fact that you've replaced it, and the new one makes no difference, does more to suggest it might be working properly.

How to diagnose the vacuum solenoid?

Thanks again !!

First, have you downloaded a digital copy of the factory service manual from http://colorado4wheel.com/manuals/Jeep/KJ/ ?
Correct diagnosis procedures are outlined step by step.
Author:  TKB4 [ Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Turbo question
You might look at part of this topic that has picture and info about checking turbo solenoids etc and which one. Bypassing both solenoids with full vacuum as discussed should cause overboost code . I think most you need is on page 2 maybe some earlier.


viewtopic.php?f=5&t=90280&p=938047#p938047
Author:  WWDiesel [ Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Turbo question
TKB4 wrote:
You might look at part of this topic that has picture and info about checking turbo solenoids etc and which one. Bypassing both solenoids with full vacuum as discussed should cause overboost code . I think most you need is on page 2 maybe some earlier.
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=90280&p=938047#p938047

This is the direct link:> viewtopic.php?p=937615#p937615
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