Blown engine?

five7driver · **Posted:** Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:55 pm

Ok, so here is the background: I did some open engine work on my daughter’s ‘06 CRD about a year ago, replacing lots of stuff but primarily the lifters,a few of which were bad. Drove the car for a few weeks around town and, satisfied that it was roadworthy, sent it away on a four hour road trip back to school. Half way there the engine seizes leaving her by the side of the road. Disgusted with it I towed it home and parked it in the back where it sat for the better part of a year. It will not turn over by hand and when the oil plug was pulled, poured out as much coolant as oil. Diagnosis: blown head gasket resulting in hydro lock.

Mechanic (yes, I broke down and paid someone else to look at it since I just don’t have the time) who claims to be experienced with VM CRD’s, says a new engine is required, but hasn’t even cracked the valve cover yet, quoting me $2,300 in labor-only for an overhaul if we were to attempt to repair the engine. New engine price: $6,500; price paid for car: $5,500. Doesn’t pass the logic test to repair it or to replace the engine, unless by some miracle he opens it up and finds minimal damage.

Not sure how to proceed here. I don’t really have time to fix it myself, but I’ve put a lot of money and work into it already (new tires, battery, alternator, weeks 1 and 2 kit, new turbo hoses, etc, etc, etc...) and I’m loathe to let all that investment go to the knacker’s yard.
Thoughts?

APC9199 · **Posted:** Thu Apr 11, 2019 5:48 pm

Turning wrenches is cheap...and so is a tow truck (relatively) if you don't like what you see when you get done turning them. Get it home and tear the head off to see what all happened. If the cylinders don't look as bad as you think they might then you can decide what to do from there. If it is a mess of cylinder fragments and broken valves then call the tow truck. Someone on here might even buy the rolling chassis if the motor is junk. You've lost no tangible money up to that point. You can find a much better deal than that on a used motor. There are a few users here that might have one for sale, even.

If the damage doesn't look horrible from the top, then an inspection of the lower end will probably be in line. Did the coolant sit in the crank case that entire time? THAT would probably be the worst part of the entire ordeal, honestly. Coolant in contact with the main bearings for that long would almost certainly destroy them.

If you can't fork out the cash for the mechanic to do the work and you don't feel up to diving into it yourself, then you really only have a few options. Sell it here or sell it to a scrap yard. Hopefully you decide to at least investigate it yourself!

layback40 · **Posted:** Thu Apr 11, 2019 5:53 pm

Probably more likely a dropped valve. If you search 'clicking & clanking noise' & find a thread by Captain Dean you can do a bit of reading .

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:21 pm

I have a good spare engine that only needs a set of rockers, if interested PM me.

TKB4 · **Posted:** Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:03 pm

What color and year and limited or sport and how many miles on it in case you want to sell it or entertain offers?

pulsenpal · **Joined:** Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:53 am **Posts:** 42

you will never turn crd into reliable daily driver for non-mechanic family member
I got 700 miles on replacement motor when head gasket lifted--was stopped
on road side at idle with puff of exhaust steam--that was it

I have new AJUSA spanish head bolts and will soon update this forum on fix

when my 2005 crd went down i picked up 2006 3.7 liberty and am a happy camper--bought additional 2006 liberty for parts

bedplate design of 3.7 is commendable --

ARP fastener company specifically distances itself from the 2.8 crd engine--

they point out never offering head studs designated for use in crd 2.8

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Fri Apr 12, 2019 11:04 am

pulsenpal wrote:

ARP fastener company specifically distances itself from the 2.8 crd engine--
they point out never offering head studs designated for use in crd 2.8

Well that's a shocker and not good news since there are countless owners who have installed ARP studs in their CRD engine with great reported success. :shock:

ARP studs has been touted for many years as "THE" only way to go when opening up this engine for any reason.

flash7210 · **Posted:** Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:52 pm

Quote:

ARP fastener company specifically distances itself from the 2.8 crd engine--

they point out never offering head studs designated for use in crd 2.8

This is true.
ARP has never made head studs for the VM R428 engine.
The only reason we have studs for this engine is because others have looked up the ARP specs and found ones that were a close fit.

Nothing is cheap for this engine.
It’s not at all like your old Chevy 350 where cheap parts are available at every junk yard.

geordi · **Posted:** Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:42 pm

pulsenpal wrote:

ARP fastener company specifically distances itself from the 2.8 crd engine--
they point out never offering head studs designated for use in crd 2.8

Ok, yes this is technically true. You have to remember that this country has too many lawyers though. ARP is a company made up almost entirely of engineers. Scientific measurement, material development and metallurgy are what they do. Just because they haven't specifically MARKETED studs for this engine, doesn't mean that they were not integral in the selection OF existing products for this engine.

Manley has been consulted on valves, and the only thing they will offer (even though they have a large collection of existing sizes right on their shelving) is to custom-cut valves for our engine at great individual cost. Why? Because they don't want the potential liability of not-the-right-application or grey-market usage of their valves to come back on them. Custom cut valves are offered with NO WARRANTY OF ANY KIND.

Back to the studs. Some very smart engineers in this group worked with ARP to specifically measure and test the existing head bolts and select options that existed which could do the same job - better. The existing bolts were determined to be putting down about 19,000 PSI of force when installed as instructed. Even the FACTORY INSTALLATIONS have not been found to be consistent after time! The research thread that I started asking for data points has shown even within the same engine, to be variations on release (and ergo, clamping) forces. The studs are MUCH higher engineered than these bolts, but no - they don't come with anything that might be construed as a guarantee or warranty, b/c there are just too many lawyers that would use that as justification to go after ARP for problems that are not theirs.

NOT ONE CRD ENGINE HAS FAILED BECAUSE OF ARP STUDS.

The CRD has a number of design issues. Every engine or vehicle does. The ARP studs are at about 75% of their elastic range and exerting about 21,000 PSI with how we are installing them, and this installation methodology was developed in close consultation with ARP. Were they going to produce a "specific kit" for an engine that has a theoretical maximum of 16k kits? No. There are FAR more TDIs out there, and 4 generations of the same block that can utilize the same studs, so even more than just the specific ALH engine that we sourced the kits from. This is just marketing and business.

NOT ONE CRD ENGINE HAS FAILED BECAUSE OF ARP STUDS.

If you want to cast aspersions at a manufacturer... Why not do it against VM who specifically made exhaust valves that weaken under the very conditions that they are designed to experience on a daily basis in a stock engine? 1200 degree exhaust temperatures because of excessive exhaust timing and multi-fueling and excessive EGR usage to "make less emissions" by making the exhaust hotter than it needs to be... All to overheat the stupid catalytic converter? The valves COULD have been made with stronger alloys, instead of one that softens around 1200 degrees.... But they didn't.

WE had to discover this problem as a community, and WE had to come up with a solution (which frankly is an enormous amount of work) to replace all the valves... With the same ones. The ONLY reason this isn't a dumb idea, is we usually are also simultaneously solving the rest of the design issues and lowering the peak cylinder temperatures to protect these valves. Is this the ultimate answer? I don't know. But I do know: NOT ONE CRD ENGINE HAS FAILED BECAUSE OF ARP STUDS.

TKB4 · **Posted:** Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:54 pm

While I also feel its true that there hasn't been a crd engine failure because of ARP studs and in fact several have had leaky head gaskets sealed just with the one by one headboldt replacement with ARP S. There definitely have been failures associated with ARP studs or that had ARP studs in their engines usually from other things like valve failure. But also from probable inaccurate installation such as RACETRACER s likely inaccurate torque wrench.

At this point the ARP s are a much needed better alternative than the original headboldts that are just temporary even when new from factory.

I don't see why there isn't a class action suit against chrysler or VM now for the faulty design and or quality of parts for both the valves and the head bolts, just because the engine is only warrantied for x miles doesn't mean it should have faulty design or specs to begin with even in a gas engine much less a diesel that was an expensive option.

pulsenpal · **Joined:** Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:53 am **Posts:** 42

my comments regarding ARP studs were not criticism of fastener quality--head studs adapted from designated application in TDI engines--which ARP markets and sanctions--are 14mm od x 1.75mm thread pitch and of appropriate length to adapt to 2.8 crd block and head dimensions

I concur that ARP fasteners are the preferred clamping system for the crd--
but--there is more to head lift than clamping force--

and so I offer the following--

head torsion--the multitude of penetrations in the aluminum crd head allow a geometric event I call torsades de plan---french for twisting of planes

clamping force alone will not remedy this --it is a fundamental design weakness--and was recognized by engine builders who adapted the virtue of crd 2.8 features while reducing more failure prone head specifics--notably going to two valve/cylinder while retaining aluminum construct

2 or 3 valve /cylinder geometry dramatically reduces head twist in aluminum

add up the penetrations in the crd head---16 lifter pockets+ two full length high pressure oil channels+4 glow plug ports+4 unit injector ports+16 intake/exhaust valve guides+generous intake /exhaust runners---
then add in differential expansion of block vs head and torsional forces are certain to play a role in failure

in 1980 I retrofit a vw Dasher with rajay turbo kit--head failure was a given in this 21:1 compression engine--10 head bolts
2 valve aluminum -would log 40 to 60K miles between head lifts--

crd head redesign to 2 valve configuration would--imo--dramatically reduce catastrophic failure by allowing more robust dimensions for all components and minimizing torsades de plan-----------

pulsenpal

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:44 am

flash7210 wrote:

Quote:

ARP fastener company specifically distances itself from the 2.8 crd engine--

they point out never offering head studs designated for use in crd 2.8

This is true.
ARP has never made head studs for the VM R428 engine.
The only reason we have studs for this engine is because others have looked up the ARP specs and found ones that were a close fit.

Nothing is cheap for this engine.
It’s not at all like your old Chevy 350 where cheap parts are available at every junk yard.

Boy howdy!
Consider that you can buy a complete ready to run 383 Chevy small block stroker crate engine for roughly the price of a new replacement CRD head.

five7driver · **Posted:** Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:20 am

TKB4: The car is a forest green sport. It’s in great condition (if you don’t count the engine!) and has had a lot of upgrades and tlc. If I decide to bail out I will let you know.

WWDiesel: I may be interested in that engine. I will contact you.

Happy to see that my dilemma has sparked such a lively and informative discussion about the reliability of the CRD engine and the efficacy of ARP head studs, but I hardly see how this helps my situation except to possibly shed a little light on the long uphill battle I’m faced with and to deter me from even attempting this repair! Am I throwing good money after bad?

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:59 pm

From my perspective it would depend on how much you like the little beast vs another and the payment that would accompany it.

I've owned / operated a LOT of vehicles, and this thing suits me as well or better than any other. That aside, every vehicle has had their unique strengths and weaknesses that need attended.

geordi · **Posted:** Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:02 pm

Five7driver: I've emailed you b/c the PM notification system on the forum seems broken.

five7driver · **Posted:** Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:43 pm

I can't seem to get it to work either. Tried sending pm to you and WWDiesel. I did not receive an email yet. Address is five7driver@aol.com. Thanks.

WW, I’m interested in more info on that engine.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:05 pm

Replied to your pm. Also sending you an email.

Blown engine?

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