2005 Gateway module

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:33 pm

GordnadoCRD wrote:

Sometimes it will, sometimes it won't, WW. Yours did, so did Papaindigo's Mine never did, but the single component change (CKPsensor) Fixed it with no other changes and no problems since.

The CPS only supplies a reference signal to the ECM for engine RPM/speed. (two wires)
The ECM will shut the engine fueling off if it sees a loss of engine RPM/speed even for just a split second.
But it will NOT prevent the ECM from allowing the starter to function and prevent spinning the engine over.
Think logically about it; it has to allow the engine to spin over before it can sense an RPM reference signal.... :wink:

TKB4 · **Posted:** Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:11 pm

my sons and I have had three bad CPS s all three cranked but no start till cooled off and only one of three showed a code implicating the CPS. That does not mean it can't cause a no crank condition though.

geordi · **Posted:** Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:02 am

The sensor should have a valid resistance range that the computer is aware of - if the computer checks during the power-on-self-test and comes back with an open circuit or wildly out of the resistance range, it SHOULD throw a code for the CPS - but just as easily could lock out the starter.

That it would lock out the starter without a code set is a failure of the programmers. Just like if the airbox sensor starts acting up, the computer will throw you into limp mode... Without a code. This should NEVER be possible. Any condition that causes a performance change should be accompanied by a stored code.

If only it was that logical.

TKB4 · **Posted:** Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:52 am

I couldn't agree more. I hope some of the programmers own and work on their own vehicle designs so they and others will benefit from their mistakes

BTW Sir Sam AKA Corobotchicken has a video on you tube about sensors etc that is pretty long but mentions that one could test pins in ecu plug to remotely check the CPS and at least possibly get an idea of whether or not it is faulty such as if open circuit versus very high resistance vs the normal range if there is no code
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvC0ytEsQ6w

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:50 am

WWDiesel wrote:

GordnadoCRD wrote:

Sometimes it will, sometimes it won't, WW. Yours did, so did Papaindigo's Mine never did, but the single component change (CKPsensor) Fixed it with no other changes and no problems since.

The CPS only supplies a reference signal to the ECM for engine RPM/speed. (two wires)
The ECM will shut the engine fueling off if it sees a loss of engine RPM/speed even for just a split second.
But it will NOT prevent the ECM from allowing the starter to function and prevent spinning the engine over.
Think logically about it; it has to allow the engine to spin over before it can sense an RPM reference signal.... :wink:

Think about the vehicle you are thinking logically about! LOL
I can't explain it, but there is this growing pile of us who have experienced exactly this ^^.
The only difference I know of is mine is 06, and I believe yours and Papaindigos are 05's. This shouldn't make any difference according to any available service info, and the part is the selfsame identical part, but :roll:

I know what I experienced. I know what fixed it. I know others whose details are the same and some whose are different.
I don't know why. I just know it is.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:01 pm

GordnadoCRD wrote:

Think about the vehicle you are thinking logically about! LOL
I can't explain it, but there is this growing pile of us who have experienced exactly this ^^.
The only difference I know of is mine is 06, and I believe yours and Papaindigos are 05's. This shouldn't make any difference according to any available service info, and the part is the selfsame identical part, but :roll:

I know what I experienced. I know what fixed it. I know others whose details are the same and some whose are different.
I don't know why. I just know it is.

If you say it happened, I have no reason to doubt you. It just does not make any sense in the logic department for me. :shock:

If someone could explain the electrical/electronic side of what you experienced I would love to hear it!
But what else is new, lots of things are not logical about these little diesels .... :ROTFL:

biggfisch · **Posted:** Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:20 am

Unhappy update for this thread... Installed a salvage FCM last night. Seemed to fix the no crank issue, but it was also 75 degrees when I did the work. Tried to start it this morning and it took a few cycles of the key before it decided to crank, so there is definitely something still going on. On the plus side, I probably have a working module to donate to the reverse engineering efforts.

I’ve got a crank and cam sensor coming today, so hopefully that does the trick.

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:53 am

WWDiesel wrote:

GordnadoCRD wrote:

Think about the vehicle you are thinking logically about! LOL
I can't explain it, but there is this growing pile of us who have experienced exactly this ^^.
The only difference I know of is mine is 06, and I believe yours and Papaindigos are 05's. This shouldn't make any difference according to any available service info, and the part is the selfsame identical part, but :roll:

I know what I experienced. I know what fixed it. I know others whose details are the same and some whose are different.
I don't know why. I just know it is.

If you say it happened, I have no reason to doubt you. It just does not make any sense in the logic department for me. :shock:

If someone could explain the electrical/electronic side of what you experienced I would love to hear it!
But what else is new, lots of things are not logical about these little diesels .... :ROTFL:

That's pretty much the "mental file" this got put under for me. I don't dispute your logic either, and was told by 2 others at the time, that my "no crank" issue couldn't possibly be the CKP sensor, and yet that is what fixed it.
I just wanted to make sure someone with these symptoms knows that this part failure doesn't conform to what the engineers who designed it, nor the ones who authored the F'n Service Manual say.
Mainly, so they don't pass up the CKP and start replacing more expensive things (ie: ECM) and have to come back to this one later, because "the symptoms weren't logical".

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:03 am

biggfisch wrote:

Unhappy update for this thread... Installed a salvage FCM last night. Seemed to fix the no crank issue, but it was also 75 degrees when I did the work. Tried to start it this morning and it took a few cycles of the key before it decided to crank, so there is definitely something still going on. On the plus side, I probably have a working module to donate to the reverse engineering efforts.

I’ve got a crank and cam sensor coming today, so hopefully that does the trick.

This line above made my mind click to the possibility of a broken starter switch pin. Have you checked that? Before mine broke completely, it had a spongey feel, and a "sometimes it works" function mode.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B075FL4Y8L/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:25 pm

GordnadoCRD wrote:

biggfisch wrote:

Unhappy update for this thread... Installed a salvage FCM last night. Seemed to fix the no crank issue, but it was also 75 degrees when I did the work. Tried to start it this morning and it took a few cycles of the key before it decided to crank, so there is definitely something still going on. On the plus side, I probably have a working module to donate to the reverse engineering efforts.

I’ve got a crank and cam sensor coming today, so hopefully that does the trick.

This line above made my mind click to the possibility of a broken starter switch pin. Have you checked that? Before mine broke completely, it had a spongey feel, and a "sometimes it works" function mode.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B075FL4Y8L/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

For replacement:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5mo3OADUnA

You can remove the switch part and turn it with a screwdriver to test if its the pin.

Billybob · **Posted:** Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:26 am

I agree with Geordie that the ECM could check the resistance of the sensor and if it is out of range ie. open circuit or short circuit or something in between then the ECM could stop the engine cranking over.

We would need a 2005 owner to disconnect the sensor and see if it turns over and likewise a 2006 owner to do the same....might clear up some things!

Yeah what would we do with our spare time if we did not have these Jeeps of ours! :wink:

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:59 pm

Billybob wrote:

I agree with Geordie that the ECM could check the resistance of the sensor and if it is out of range ie. open circuit or short circuit or something in between then the ECM could stop the engine cranking over.

We would need a 2005 owner to disconnect the sensor and see if it turns over and likewise a 2006 owner to do the same....might clear up some things!

Yeah what would we do with our spare time if we did not have these Jeeps of ours! :wink:

That would be OK if it were not such a PITA to get to that CPS connector that is under a heat shield in a very tight location.... :ROTFL:

TKB4 · **Posted:** Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:44 pm

True but when someone needs to change the CPS anyway they could try to crank the vehicle while it is unplugged during replacement. If I had thought of that could have checked on an 06 and an 05 in the last 6 months.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:11 pm

TKB4 wrote:

True but when someone needs to change the CPS anyway they could try to crank the vehicle while it is unplugged during replacement. If I had thought of that could have checked on an 06 and an 05 in the last 6 months.

Great idea, that might answer some nigly questions. :POPCORN:

biggfisch · **Posted:** Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:26 pm

Hey guys.

Thought I'd throw out a quick update after my efforts this weekend. I appreciate everyone's input on this, since it seems to be quite the conundrum.

This weekend I replaced both cam and crank sensors with MOPAR parts. No dice there. With those eliminated, I'm now looking at replacing more expensive items, since the ignition switch and barrel were the first things I changed when this ordeal started.

Had some time to conduct a little experiment tonight, using highly controlled and very scientific methods. My pop and I tried to get it to crank. It wouldn't.

Since the issue seems to be heat related, and I didn't know what else to try, I pulled the ECM out and stuck it in the freezer for a bit. After it got good and cold, we put it back in the Jeep, and it fired right up. Shut it off, tried again, and it started no problem. Tried it a few more times, and it lit off each time. So I tried unplugging the top connector on the ECM. The Jeep would crank, but not start in this condition. I tried the reverse, with the top connected and the bottom (C2) off. The Jeep would go back into it's no crank state, complete with no fuel gage sweep, low fuel light, SKIM light solid, and Airbag light on. I reconnected the bottom, and it started right back up. After letting the ECM heat up a bit more (it's about 85F or so outside), it returned to the no crank state. Back into the freezer it went.

After it cooled off again, I reconnected it, and the Jeep cranked and fired each time we tried. SO... I think there might be a problem with my ECM. Either there is some kind of thermal safety that for some reason is triggering at ~80F, or there is something in the bottom connector circuitry that is shorting out at ~80F and turning off the communication bus.

Anyway, now I'm in the market for an '05 ECM, P/N 56044562CC. Whether new or used, looks like I'll have to take it to the dealer regardless to have the VIN programmed.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:59 pm

biggfisch wrote:

Hey guys.
Thought I'd throw out a quick update after my efforts this weekend. I appreciate everyone's input on this, since it seems to be quite the conundrum.
This weekend I replaced both cam and crank sensors with MOPAR parts. No dice there. With those eliminated, I'm now looking at replacing more expensive items, since the ignition switch and barrel were the first things I changed when this ordeal started.
Had some time to conduct a little experiment tonight, using highly controlled and very scientific methods. My pop and I tried to get it to crank. It wouldn't.
Since the issue seems to be heat related, and I didn't know what else to try, I pulled the ECM out and stuck it in the freezer for a bit. After it got good and cold, we put it back in the Jeep, and it fired right up. Shut it off, tried again, and it started no problem. Tried it a few more times, and it lit off each time. So I tried unplugging the top connector on the ECM. The Jeep would crank, but not start in this condition. I tried the reverse, with the top connected and the bottom (C2) off. The Jeep would go back into it's no crank state, complete with no fuel gage sweep, low fuel light, SKIM light solid, and Airbag light on. I reconnected the bottom, and it started right back up. After letting the ECM heat up a bit more (it's about 85F or so outside), it returned to the no crank state. Back into the freezer it went.
After it cooled off again, I reconnected it, and the Jeep cranked and fired each time we tried. SO... I think there might be a problem with my ECM. Either there is some kind of thermal safety that for some reason is triggering at ~80F, or there is something in the bottom connector circuitry that is shorting out at ~80F and turning off the communication bus.
Anyway, now I'm in the market for an '05 ECM, P/N 56044562CC. Whether new or used, looks like I'll have to take it to the dealer regardless to have the VIN programmed.

Thats very interesting about the temperature affecting the no start condition. :shock:

If you can find an ECM, you may want to check with Green Diesel Engineering, I believe they have the tools and know how to reprogram a ECM with vin an injector numbers.
They may be much cheaper than a dealer and they are very familiar with these vehicles.
https://www.greendieselengineering.com/Welcome.action
Give them a call: Office phone: (248) 977-9531
Office hours: Monday through Friday 8 am to 5 pm eastern standard time.
Heck, they may even have a suggestion on how to fix your ECM.

Some years ago, when they first started putting ECM's in vehicles, Fords were notorious for there ECM's heat sinking and not starting on very hot days here in the south. :dead:

You could pour some ice water over the box and the engine would fire right up.
I even seen people place a bag of ice on them and drive around just so the engine would keep running. :shock:

A bag of ice was cheap compared to having to buy an ECM at that time. They did get much cheaper later on.
Pouring ice water on it or placing it in the freezer for a short spell was a very common mode of testing.... :ROTFL:

TKB4 · **Posted:** Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:36 am

The last time I sent an ECM to GDE to change VIN on a tune the charge was $50 and they reprogrammed it and had it back in the outward mail the same day. I was without it for a total of 4 days. Great Service !!

PM sent and please post that you do or don't receive it the last couple sent are still in my outbox not sure if its a problem on my end or not.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:06 pm

TKB4 wrote:

The last time I sent an ECM to GDE to change VIN on a tune the charge was $50 and they reprogrammed it and had it back in the outward mail the same day. I was without it for a total of 4 days. Great Service !!
PM sent and please post that you do or don't receive it the last couple sent are still in my outbox not sure if its a problem on my end or not.

I still have 8 messages setting in my Outbox some as old as 2018, not sure why it does this either. Sure wish someone could explain it!

gollygeemister · **Posted:** Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:03 pm

WWDiesel wrote:

TKB4 wrote:

The last time I sent an ECM to GDE to change VIN on a tune the charge was $50 and they reprogrammed it and had it back in the outward mail the same day. I was without it for a total of 4 days. Great Service !!
PM sent and please post that you do or don't receive it the last couple sent are still in my outbox not sure if its a problem on my end or not.

I still have 8 messages setting in my Outbox some as old as 2018, not sure why it does this either. Sure wish someone could explain it!

It means the recipient hasn't opened it yet.

WolverineFW · **Posted:** Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:21 pm

gollygeemister wrote:

WWDiesel wrote:

TKB4 wrote:

The last time I sent an ECM to GDE to change VIN on a tune the charge was $50 and they reprogrammed it and had it back in the outward mail the same day. I was without it for a total of 4 days. Great Service !!
PM sent and please post that you do or don't receive it the last couple sent are still in my outbox not sure if its a problem on my end or not.

I still have 8 messages setting in my Outbox some as old as 2018, not sure why it does this either. Sure wish someone could explain it!

It means the recipient hasn't opened it yet.

Yep....if they have not opened it, it stays in your outbox.

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2005 Gateway module

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