Coolant Loss via Liner?

TKB4 · **Posted:** Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:59 pm

A Brown 06 CRD of my son at college was home for summer and it had a slow coolant loss. I wanted to give it a freshening up anyway because it is going to be his responsibility to keep it maintained after college or to get it back here for me to. It had brief mild overheating once when my wife drove it in traffic, she just turned ac off and heat on and stopped when clear of traffic and got coolant topped off. That was first time any hint of coolant leakage.

It has already had weeks kit and updated fuel head, lift pump, glow plugs etc radiator cap etc. I had a low mile head with all new valves to put on it and figured the coolant leak was head gasket. So I pulled head put new gasket on and ARP studs using the copper gasket seal on all four surfaces and new rockers and new TB rest TB service not needed only been about 20,000 miles.

It still leaks coolant . Low coolant light comes on about every 300-400 miles with city driving and fill it back to normal level. On the cold engine head gasket test it holds a lot of pressure overnight and just a small burp of air on test much less than I have had with other head gasket leaks. There are no visible leaks at all, garage floor totally dry overnight and immediate and say 1 hour after parking. There are no unusual odors and engine compartment is dry. The coolant itself looks totally clean. There are no signs of oil contamination.

Question:
Is there any way to tell a liner leak from head crack or head gasket leak without looking at it etc? Wouldn't liner crack be much more likely to lead to coolant in oil or not ( though I can see under pressure it may only go out in exhaust)?

I didn't put sealant on the two plugs on drivers side head created with weeks kit etc, didn't have any handy. Would this be likely to leak without evidence? What type of sealant would you use ? High temp permeated, teflon pipe paste etc ?

Guess I will change radiator cap again but really don't have much time to do much else before he goes back to school after labor day. Next chance would be Thanksgiving holiday for anything major. BTW engine is running excellent for now at least. MPG also seems about normal.

Couldn't find source of leak pressurizing coolant system via splice in hose from radiator to coolant bottle. I have not tried UV Dye or testing coolant for exhaust gases.

Any other suggestions ?

CGman · **Posted:** Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:45 pm

I've had several leaks similar to this, one turned out to be the lower thermostat bolts loosened up and caused a small leak that evaporated on hot engine. Another couple of times it was a engine to radiator hose clamp that 1. spring steel clamp broke, but hose was molded to outlet, so no blowout 2. worm gear clamp somehow started allowing slow leak. The thermostat leak I found on a cold day watching steam come out of the engine bay when the engine was shut down.

Still waiting on 'the big one'...I've got the ARP studs sitting in the garage, but the engine has been running so good I don't want to screw with it...145K miles

TKB4 · **Posted:** Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:20 pm

I hope its something like yours was . I don't blame you on not wanting to rock the boat but I would still have to advise changing the exhaust valves and ARP s etc with your next Timing Belt Maintenance preferably by 180,000.

Good Luck!

flash7210 · **Posted:** Sat Aug 31, 2019 4:50 am

If you have a liner leak, you’d likely have coolant in the oil pan.
Also, remove and open up the crankcase vent. If you find any sludgy oil in there, that could indicate oil/water contamination.
If your egr cooler is still had coolant lines connected to it, that could also be a source of the leak.

I thought I had a head gasket leak.
After replacing the head gasket I still had the same symptom, leaking coolant into the exhaust.
Before pulling the head again I removed the turbo and exhaust manifold and topped off the coolant. Then I pressurized the cooling system to 16 psi and walked away.
Came back 30 minutes later and found coolant dripping out of two of the exhaust ports.
Started to tear the engine down again but I wanted to verify that it was a cracked head and not something else. So, once I got the valve cover and camshafts off, I reconnected all the coolant lines, topped off with water, and repeated the pressure test.
Same result. Only this time all the valves were definitely closed and confirming that the only possible leak is from a cracked head.

TKB4 · **Posted:** Sat Aug 31, 2019 7:47 am

Thanks thats what I thought too about coolant in oil.
Don't have an egr at all.
No evidence of moisture in CCV

I also reconnected coolant system with valvecover off when I put in ARP s one by one without removing head on one that had just started a small leak and it confirmed that the leak was stopped.

Hopefully not cracked head directly from VM Specialists but would rather have that than cracked liner I guess.

May have to try some UV dye.

Thanks for reply.

fool4wheelin · **Posted:** Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:13 am

When I had a cracked head it behaved much like yours, slow coolant leak. I replaced with a different head from VM Spec. About a year later I noticed the coolant tank over pressurizing and blowing over, much like a bad head gasket, but was a cracked liner. Funny thing with the cracked liner is that it did not leak coolant, it only let exhaust into the coolant system, but not coolant the other way..

Did you have your head leak checked when you replaced the gasket?

TKB4 · **Posted:** Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:16 am

No, I didn't because it was a low mileage head directly from VM specialists that I also had them replace all the valves in with new valves before they shipped it.

fool4wheelin · **Posted:** Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:34 pm

Loss of coolant was the first symptom, I didn’t start tearing things down until after my oil analysis came back with coolant in the oil. Pressure test showed the head was leaking coolant into one of the intake ports.

geordi · **Posted:** Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:21 pm

Unfortunately, this may be a head issue. The VM specialist is a breaker (what they call a boneyard) over there, and I have suspicions that they are telling us what we want to hear when we order a head from them.

I suggest anyone buying a head to have it checked here, and get the valves in the packages and put them in yourself. One head that arrived here, the valves were "new" yet were obviously NOT - they were very well cleaned, yes... But were pitted all over the place.

Other heads have arrived with similar evidence of mayhem in the cylinders, I suspect that the European engines ARE HAVING THE SAME KIND OF ISSUES WE ARE, b/c why else would the combustion chamber area of the underside of a head look like someone had used it for target practice with a nail gun? Divots everywhere.

The heads are a good price, but have it tested. These things have a TON of internal passages, it wouldn't take much for one to leak internally and nobody knew before shipping it.

TKB4 · **Posted:** Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:32 pm

I thought about that after the fact but the valves they installed were definitely new it may be another source. I did find a very small leak from the hose that connects underneath coolant reservoir and there may have been bad radiator cap or not fastened good . It was a cap from Stant that had the pressure relief lever that I had used because of my son having to add coolant to hot engine at times so he could release the pressure more safely.

Before he left for school I replaced that cap with new OEM style cap. He went 380 miles saturday from here to atlanta and said the coolant level was not low temp nl etc so crossing my fingers, if he makes it rest of the way to savannah ga without change in coolant it is probably fixed.

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:26 pm

School in Savannah.... SCAD? If so, I got an MFA from there.

On the Stant versus OEM style caps... I hope it does fix it, but the style of cap has little to do with it. They are made VERY cheaply, so failures of the caps are certainly common.

TKB4 · **Posted:** Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:34 pm

Yes, SCAD for 3D Animation starting 3rd year and will only need 2 quarters next year on about 2/3rds scholarship. He made it the rest of the way without low coolant so about 700 miles hopefully leak was the cap.

Steve777 · **Joined:** Fri Oct 16, 2015 11:31 pm **Posts:** 279

I tend to agree with you Geordi on VMSpecialist. When I was looking for a replacement head I spoke with them. Wanted a good tested head that they would replace the exhaust valves in, and that I could pay for with a card (so I had some recourse if the package didn't show or whatever). At first, all these things were possible, and for a very good price with shipping. However as I got closer to finalizing my list of other parts/gaskets things changed. Suddenly this head was a low mileage one they "knew was good" no need to test it or replace valves. Then they could not take cards anymore as payment. The whole thing seemed a bit fishy to me, so I ended up with a new head from IDParts.

I know a few folks here have had good experiences with VMSpecialist, but they seemed too willing to tell me what I wanted to hear at the beginning and the story changed when it came time to actual buy. Not the sort of place I am willing to do business with.

TKB4 · **Posted:** Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:57 am

They required a bank transfer from me from the beginning and I know others have paid that way. Maybe they didn't realize you were in US who knows but I did feel vulnerable sending well over $1000for 2 heads all new valves and sets of rockers. When I did mine they said it would take 2 weeks for them to get the new valves from VM Matori so it would be delayed and I told them that was OK with me.
Maybe they don't want to get that complicated now. Who Knows, but only thing I was unhappy about was I don't remember being told there might be a duty fee and that was about $20 which I paid to the carrier Fedex.

That being said I don't think I would have bought from them if they had treated me that way. Possibly would have ordered just the used heads.

There also could be an opportunity here for someone to buy a couple heads at a time . Replace exhaust valves here and have tested at shop ready to be sold for about $1000.

Mountain Man seems to have had more dealings with them than most maybe he will comment.

Mountainman · **Posted:** Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:42 am

Oh yeah, multiple big orders, and a pile of parts that belong to different VM engines (I assume, definitely not our engine), and they ALWAYS go completely silent when I mention they sent me an incorrect part. I'm certain I have more strange VM parts than anyone else in the US. Just ask if you need a gasket for the Euro style turbo or random oil pan gaskets :furious:

hundreds of dollars worth of parts..
I do my best to avoid them

Mountainman · **Posted:** Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:31 pm

I've also seen zero liner problems. Even after the oil has been run out do to smoked turbos. Looks like they got that part right

TKB4 · **Posted:** Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:16 am

Thanks for info guess best to stick with just head and maybe new rockers .

Glad to hear that about liners. Guess if cannot see source of a coolant leak need to think under exhaust valves and maybe directly into manifold :grim:

Mountainman · **Posted:** Tue Sep 24, 2019 9:04 am

TKB4 wrote:

Thanks for info guess best to stick with just head and maybe new rockers .

Glad to hear that about liners. Guess if cannot see source of a coolant leak need to think under exhaust valves and maybe directly into manifold :grim:

Yeah, and maybe cracked block too. Hopefully you didn't get lucky and actually have a liner issue. Feel where the hoses connect on a fully warm engine and you might just come up with a tiny bit of moisture on your finger. Burns a bit, but that's how I've found some mystery coolant losses

Mountainman · **Posted:** Tue Sep 24, 2019 9:14 am

Never mind my last comment, sounds like you found the leak? And that's a lot of coolant loss for a seep ..
I had a bad cap cause a boil over on a big grade. Instant low coolant light. Luckily I had water along, and after a good cooldown I topped it off and then flushed and redid the coolant at home and all is well.

TKB4 · **Posted:** Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:21 am

Yes, that leak has apparently stopped after over 800 miles and no further need to add coolant. However I may have transferred that jeeps problem to the one I have been getting back on the road for first time in about 5 years. I put a VM Matori head on that jeep with new exhaust valves and since that head had a little over 100K on it instead of putting the head back on one I am rehabbing that had about 150k on it I put the 100k one on it from 06 brown one and now the one I transferred the 100K head call it the 05 brown one is leaking coolant steadily and fairly quick but can't see the source. Could be a lot of things but now I am going to start tracking this one down. It could have been head all along on the 06 and now its on the 05. Even if it is still better than the liner or block :banghead:

Coolant Loss via Liner?

Who is online