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 Post subject: hard to start
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:51 pm 
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hello all,
it takes 3 or 4 runs of the starter motor to get it to fire. sometimes it throws random codes then. If I clear the codes after starting no more codes appear.
Glow plugs appear to be working.
I think I read somewhere that the MAF sensor could affect starting, is this correct?
Any other clues
Thanks Peter

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 Post subject: Re: hard to start
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:28 pm 
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1. It’s not the MAF sensor

2. Maybe the codes are not random. They might actually help diagnose the problem.

3. Is the engine getting fuel? Is there air in the fuel? When was the last time you changed the fuel filter?

_________________
Bought my '05 CRD on June 2nd '07, used with 29,000 miles.
intake elbow and EGR delete. 5 volt bosch glow plugs
Yeti stage 2 ECU tune. Straight pipe exhaust. DIY intercooler hoses
Provent and modified factory 180F thermostat
Replaced cylinder head (cracked) at 160,000 miles + ARP studs
2.5 inch lift, JBA upper arms, 235-85-16 tires.
Still love it.


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 Post subject: Re: hard to start
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:56 pm 
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Is the engine getting fuel? Is there air in the fuel? When was the last time you changed the fuel filter

Yes, no air, starts the same if it sits for 10 seconds or 10 hours.

The only code that seems relevant is map sensor which I have cleaned but to be sure I have a new one coming.

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Straight through exhaust
Airtex fuel pump
2 micron filter
2" lift


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 Post subject: Re: hard to start
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:51 pm 
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phum wrote:
hello all,
it takes 3 or 4 runs of the starter motor to get it to fire. sometimes it throws random codes then. If I clear the codes after starting no more codes appear.
Glow plugs appear to be working.
I think I read somewhere that the MAF sensor could affect starting, is this correct?
Any other clues
Thanks Peter

The MAF sensor will not affect or prevent the engine from starting, it is only used for EGR operation.
You have some other problem.
Air in fuel causes lots of issues on these vehicles. That is why many install a in-tank lift pump to eliminate all air in fuel problems.
What were the codes? Knowing them may allow some on this forum to offer help and suggestions.

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Ironman Springs/Bilstein's
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2mic.Sec.Fuel Filter
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Last edited by WWDiesel on Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: hard to start
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:16 pm 
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It would be best to record the codes and share them with us even if they seem random. The behavior sounds like restricted fuel flow or air in fuel as Flash alluded to. You might want to make 100% sure that the lift pump is actually functioning and fuel head line fittings are tight. I suppose it could be early crankshaft sensor or cam sensor failure failure even if no codes at all. You might also want to check the air filter. I assume you have the newer generation fuel head.

Need theses things to ignite:

Fuel from injectors in adequate amounts and pressure (ECM must be satisfied to signal injectors)
Air in correct Ratio
Compression of adequate degree at correct timing with valves etc

I seriously doubt compression is a problem or timing valves etc since the engine does start but that leaves the other two as the most likely possibilities

Good luck in deciphering the cause.

_________________
05 Blu LIM, OME GDE Tbo, wk II 245/75/17, KC Lights, bull bar, 195K H TC
05 Blu Lim, Dayton, GDE HT, 255/75/18 , 210K , H TC
06 Bla Lim, GDE Eco, Destination AT 245/75/17, 151K, H TC
06 D Khaki Lim 126K wkII Eur TC
05 D khaki Lim 145k refurbishing
All CRDS: Fumoto, Lift , Fan Shroud mod, fuel head Gen II, SAMCOS,self TB, 2 Mic filt, Hayden


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 Post subject: Re: hard to start
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:58 am 
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codes that I have seen are
P0146
U0002
P08C1
P20C1
P0108
P2001
P0234
P2004
Plus a few others that only relate to gas engines.
These codes only occur when trying to start, when motor is running no codes.
I have a completely custom fuel filter system and an inline pump with no evidence of leaks fuel out or air in.
Air filter I haven't looked at but its not old, will try without it..
It runs perfectly once started that why I am inclined to think its electronic but where to start

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Yeti tune
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Straight through exhaust
Airtex fuel pump
2 micron filter
2" lift


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 Post subject: Re: hard to start
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 5:04 am 
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Posts: 175
I agree with the others. Sounds like air in the fuel.

I just fixed one of mine. It had started leaking fuel back by the rear axle due to a pin hole in the steel line but would start and run fine. I cut out a section of line and replaced it. That stopped the leak, but then I started getting air in the filter. When I repaired the steel line, I had to rotate the plastic line at one of the press on connections. It would let air in but did not leak a drop. It took a lot of cranking to get it to start, but it would start.

I dropped the fuel tank, removed the plastic line, installed a rubber line directly onto the fuel tank, secured with a stainless worm clamp, then coupled the rubber hose onto the steel line with a stainless worm clamp. Primed the filter and it starts instantly now.

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 Post subject: Re: hard to start
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:46 am 
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Yes, your MAP sensor appears to have a problem

P0108-MANIFOLD ABSOLUTE PRESSURE SENSOR CIRCUIT HIGH.
P0234-BOOST PRESSURE SENSOR NEGATIVE DEVIATION.

Its either a bad sensor or a problem with the wiring to the sensor.

I know on my engine it wont run with the MAP sensor unplugged.

_________________
Bought my '05 CRD on June 2nd '07, used with 29,000 miles.
intake elbow and EGR delete. 5 volt bosch glow plugs
Yeti stage 2 ECU tune. Straight pipe exhaust. DIY intercooler hoses
Provent and modified factory 180F thermostat
Replaced cylinder head (cracked) at 160,000 miles + ARP studs
2.5 inch lift, JBA upper arms, 235-85-16 tires.
Still love it.


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 Post subject: Re: hard to start
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:16 am 
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Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:33 pm
Posts: 766
Location: Jackson,TN
or it could always be another electrical problem like a bad ground, but favor the Map or its wiring also. What makes me think it could be ground is the numerous seemingly unrelated codes. BTW the other codes you said only apply to gassers may also apply to the CRD just maybe not point to same etiology.

Good luck with the new MAP sensor I believe this will solve your issue.

_________________
05 Blu LIM, OME GDE Tbo, wk II 245/75/17, KC Lights, bull bar, 195K H TC
05 Blu Lim, Dayton, GDE HT, 255/75/18 , 210K , H TC
06 Bla Lim, GDE Eco, Destination AT 245/75/17, 151K, H TC
06 D Khaki Lim 126K wkII Eur TC
05 D khaki Lim 145k refurbishing
All CRDS: Fumoto, Lift , Fan Shroud mod, fuel head Gen II, SAMCOS,self TB, 2 Mic filt, Hayden


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 Post subject: Re: hard to start
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:31 pm 
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I would still check those grounds to rule them out. No cost and does not take much time.
Especially the one on top of the finder behind the left headlamp, several have had issues with it.

grounds:
Image

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Carter Intank-pmp
2mic.Sec.Fuel Filter
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 Post subject: Re: hard to start
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:11 pm 
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Location: Oregon Coast Dairy Country. Land of stumps, dumps, and "Liquid Pumps"
Have your battery load-tested.

Check and clean every connection between it and the starter. Some earlier OEM starters draw a higher amp load than newer ones.

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 Post subject: Re: hard to start
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:18 pm 
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An update
I cant find any fuel leaks , no air in the system after 10 hours of sitting.
I have ordered new fuel filters just to be sure.
Ditto new MAP sensor on the way.
Haven't looked at the electrical side of things, leaving that till last, don't enjoy playing with things I cant see .

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2006 KJ CRD
Yeti tune
EGR delete
Straight through exhaust
Airtex fuel pump
2 micron filter
2" lift


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 Post subject: Re: hard to start
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:51 pm 
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phum wrote:
An update
I cant find any fuel leaks , no air in the system after 10 hours of sitting.
I have ordered new fuel filters just to be sure.
Ditto new MAP sensor on the way.
Haven't looked at the electrical side of things, leaving that till last, don't enjoy playing with things I cant see .

You can "See" the grounds, at least check them to rule them out...

_________________
Proud Supporting Vendor of LOST
05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited :JEEPIN:

Ironman Springs/Bilstein's
Yeti Stg4 MaxTune
Weeks ElbowKit/BatteryTray
No FCV/EGR
Samcos/ProVent
SunCoast/Transgo
Carter Intank-pmp
2mic.Sec.Fuel Filter
Flowmaster/NOcat
V6Airbox
GM11 bld fan/NAPA HDclutch
IronrockArm/Cust.Mount
DodgeCummins,5"exh. Viair, Huge K&N


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 Post subject: Re: hard to start
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:02 pm 
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Location: Oregon Coast Dairy Country. Land of stumps, dumps, and "Liquid Pumps"
WWDiesel wrote:
phum wrote:
An update
I cant find any fuel leaks , no air in the system after 10 hours of sitting.
I have ordered new fuel filters just to be sure.
Ditto new MAP sensor on the way.
Haven't looked at the electrical side of things, leaving that till last, don't enjoy playing with things I cant see .

You can "See" the grounds, at least check them to rule them out...

A battery load test is also a "quick-n-easy" any auto parts store (NAPA, Auto Zone, etc) can do for you. Make sure they understand you want the BATTERY load tested, not the alternator. Clean and tighten terminal connectors is another common problem source that takes minutes to check and service.

_________________
'06 Lbrty Sprt CRD 150K

Sasquatch
DSS Turbo
CAT-elimntr
Weeks Stg1&2 EGRfix
PV-200
BLING
vent gauges

IDParts
head
cams
rockers
Timing set
ARP studs
eTn1 GX2123 5v GPs

YETI Custom Tune
Flowmaster 8325508
Carter P76611M
GM 12611872
Hayden 2986
GM 15976889
PATC Custom Billet
2010 Ram Hemi Trans
Sonnax 44957
Transgo kit
Cooper 51770


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 Post subject: Re: hard to start
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:35 am 
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Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 9:39 pm
Posts: 88
Location: Australia
Another update.
All electrical checked, cleaned and functioning. glad I did because I removed the battery tray and there was a lot of corrosion underneath.
Replaced MAP sensor with GM bit 55206797 ( couldn't get genuine here)
Starting better but now getting MAP code instantly. Have I got the wrong sensor or is it possible to get a new one that's bad?
Thanks all

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2006 KJ CRD
Yeti tune
EGR delete
Straight through exhaust
Airtex fuel pump
2 micron filter
2" lift


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 Post subject: Re: hard to start
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:53 am 
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That's the correct part number. Many are running the GM MAP sensor including myself and not getting any codes due to it.
Could a new one be bad, it is always possible.
You stated you had a lot of corrosion under the battery, did you check those ground wires?

_________________
Proud Supporting Vendor of LOST
05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited :JEEPIN:

Ironman Springs/Bilstein's
Yeti Stg4 MaxTune
Weeks ElbowKit/BatteryTray
No FCV/EGR
Samcos/ProVent
SunCoast/Transgo
Carter Intank-pmp
2mic.Sec.Fuel Filter
Flowmaster/NOcat
V6Airbox
GM11 bld fan/NAPA HDclutch
IronrockArm/Cust.Mount
DodgeCummins,5"exh. Viair, Huge K&N


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 Post subject: Re: hard to start
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 2:14 am 
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WWDiesel wrote:
That's the correct part number. Many are running the GM MAP sensor including myself and not getting any codes due to it.
Could a new one be bad, it is always possible.
You stated you had a lot of corrosion under the battery, did you check those ground wires?



Yes, no corrosion there but body was well insulated with paint, suppose it earthed through the thread. paint is gone good contact now between lug and body plus bolt, same for the other earth mentioned earlier

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2006 KJ CRD
Yeti tune
EGR delete
Straight through exhaust
Airtex fuel pump
2 micron filter
2" lift


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 Post subject: Re: hard to start
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:44 am 
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Location: Jackson,TN
It appears at least the ECM (computer) still thinks there is something wrong with the MAP system. I know you said the electrical checks out but if you haven't already removed the connector of the harness to the ECM you might do so even if nothing appears wrong just removal and replacement may improve the connection as well as maybe remove and replace the MAP sensor plug a time or two.

Yes the new MAP sensor could be bad but I have not heard of a new one that was bad as I have heard of other new sensors being bad.

_________________
05 Blu LIM, OME GDE Tbo, wk II 245/75/17, KC Lights, bull bar, 195K H TC
05 Blu Lim, Dayton, GDE HT, 255/75/18 , 210K , H TC
06 Bla Lim, GDE Eco, Destination AT 245/75/17, 151K, H TC
06 D Khaki Lim 126K wkII Eur TC
05 D khaki Lim 145k refurbishing
All CRDS: Fumoto, Lift , Fan Shroud mod, fuel head Gen II, SAMCOS,self TB, 2 Mic filt, Hayden


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 Post subject: Re: hard to start
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:17 am 
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phum wrote:
I cant find any fuel leaks , no air in the system after 10 hours of sitting.
I have ordered new fuel filters just to be sure.


While reading the following, keep in mind that I'm not a fan of throwing parts at a problem. With that said, here's my 2¢ regarding air in the fuel:

This is a problem that can be difficult to convince people they're experiencing - at least, it certainly was in my case, and I know that I wasn't the first to be stubborn about it. Last Friday, I finally installed an in-tank fuel pump and (even with other issues going on), there was a noticeable improvement in starting, idle, and responsiveness. There are other things that need to be addressed that I'm getting ready to go outside and tackle, but until I could feel the difference between not having an in-tank pump and having one, the reasons for installing one were largely academic. Sure, I knew it would be an improvement over stock, but because the KJ was basically working I largely considered the upgrade to fall into the category of, 'it'd be nice to have one day'. I'm now of the opinion that it should be one of the first upgrades done on these vehicles.

I'm mentioning this because you're in a similar boat to me (multiple issues at once), and are going down some of the same troubleshooting paths. I didn't have fuel leaks either (air-in-fuel is typically caused by suction of air into the lines, not leaking of fuel, so you may not see fuel leaks), and two filter changes didn't make any difference, even with the revised fuel filter head in place.

I'm not saying you have to install the in-tank pump right away by any means, but it does sound like air in fuel is an issue for you. I don't doubt that there are other things also going on, but you may want to give this upgrade more consideration than you might have been.

Out of curiosity, you say that there's no air in the fuel. How did you test for that?

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225/75R16 Goodyear TrailRunner ATs
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Samco / Sasquatch Intake Hoses
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 Post subject: Re: hard to start
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:48 pm 
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casm wrote:
While reading the following, keep in mind that I'm not a fan of throwing parts at a problem. With that said, here's my 2¢ regarding air in the fuel:
This is a problem that can be difficult to convince people they're experiencing - at least, it certainly was in my case, and I know that I wasn't the first to be stubborn about it. Last Friday, I finally installed an in-tank fuel pump and (even with other issues going on), there was a noticeable improvement in starting, idle, and responsiveness. There are other things that need to be addressed that I'm getting ready to go outside and tackle, but until I could feel the difference between not having an in-tank pump and having one, the reasons for installing one were largely academic. Sure, I knew it would be an improvement over stock, but because the KJ was basically working I largely considered the upgrade to fall into the category of, 'it'd be nice to have one day'. I'm now of the opinion that it should be one of the first upgrades done on these vehicles.
I'm mentioning this because you're in a similar boat to me (multiple issues at once), and are going down some of the same troubleshooting paths. I didn't have fuel leaks either (air-in-fuel is typically caused by suction of air into the lines, not leaking of fuel, so you may not see fuel leaks), and two filter changes didn't make any difference, even with the revised fuel filter head in place.
I'm not saying you have to install the in-tank pump right away by any means, but it does sound like air in fuel is an issue for you. I don't doubt that there are other things also going on, but you may want to give this upgrade more consideration than you might have been.
Out of curiosity, you say that there's no air in the fuel. How did you test for that?

Very true!

To build on what Casm stated. Air in fuel can be a very difficult thing to determine for sure. Short of installing some clear tubing to watch for air bubbles, infused or emulsified air in fuel can very difficult to spot or prove.

Top mods that should be done to these vehicles's engine ASAP if you have one.
1. Total removal of the EGR system (top priority)
2. Install of an in-tank fuel pump
3. Replace MAP sensor
4. Replace Crankshaft Position sensor
The list goes on and on, but the above have proved to be some of the most troublesome causing items.

_________________
Proud Supporting Vendor of LOST
05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited :JEEPIN:

Ironman Springs/Bilstein's
Yeti Stg4 MaxTune
Weeks ElbowKit/BatteryTray
No FCV/EGR
Samcos/ProVent
SunCoast/Transgo
Carter Intank-pmp
2mic.Sec.Fuel Filter
Flowmaster/NOcat
V6Airbox
GM11 bld fan/NAPA HDclutch
IronrockArm/Cust.Mount
DodgeCummins,5"exh. Viair, Huge K&N


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