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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:31 pm 
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But there is still the electric fan up front, is there not? What sort of running temps do you normally see? Is it very consistent at 205-210F?


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 8:13 am 
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That does look really nice! Good job.

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2005 Liberty CRD, with 111,XXX miles. New rockers, exhaust valves, Provent, EGR block & butterfly delete & V6 air box

1998 XJ 4.0L, stock with 109,XXX miles

First Jeep: 1962 Willys CJ-3B


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 10:00 pm 
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This isn't bad!

https://youtu.be/9XrGKL_FnVc


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 10:09 pm 
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Got all the important stuff put together today. Buttoned up the AC system, connected all the intake plumbing, the cooling system, electrical doodads, serpentine belt. All of it. I hadn't actually planned to, but I went ahead and fired it up. It started with just a couple cranks, went right into a nice idle. It's tough to hear bad engine noises over a diesel, but nothing jumped out at me.

The CEL is illuminated for a P0073 - I believe the AAT sensor is in the grille which is not attached so, you know, that makes sense.

The cooling system is empty so I only ran it for about 2 minutes. During that time there was no oil leak (not that I expected one) and no fuel leak (which was on the table ;) ) so that's all good. AC system isn't charged, but held vacuum for 30+ minutes. It gets charged absolutely last, in case things have to come apart.

There is unfortunately an ATF leak. One of the transmission cooler hoses is leaking pretty badly ... I'm guessing it got, um, impacted at some point. So, that's gotta get replaced. #55037734AD

Also, the PCV hose from the EH basically shattered, so I need a new one of those too. #53013729AB -> 53013729AC

I'll get that stuff ordered, and while I wait I can work on wiring up the cooling fan.

I don't want to spin up my hopes, but I'm really hopeful this thing is actually as solid as it seems right now. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 11:04 pm 
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Congrats!

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Provent, EGR bypass, Block Heater, Muffler Delete, RC 1, Tranny Rebuild; ''02 Golf TDI, too many mods to list.


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:01 am 
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:BINGO: :BANANA: :pepper:
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If it is the metal ATF line, it can be repaired with 3/8 metal brake line and brass compression fittings.
Used them a few years ago when I added a transmission fluid sensor block. Still working to this day with no leaks.

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05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited :JEEPIN:
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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:51 pm 
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I can't for sure tell where the leak is, but I think it's at the crimp fitting between the metal tube and the rubber hose. It could be the rubber itself.

I agonized over just installing a separate cooler (I have a nice Setrab/Mocal cooler in the garage) but I found that rockauto has replacement Sunsong hose sets for $65. I generally shy away from "no name" brands, but Sunsong actually has a good reputation in this space. Lots of good feedback amongst owners of other cars I own for fluid lines. I hit the easy button on this one! :)


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:09 pm 
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thesameguy wrote:
But there is still the electric fan up front, is there not? What sort of running temps do you normally see? Is it very consistent at 205-210F?



If you are referring to me, there are indeed electric pusher fans in front of both of the family CRDs. However, I do not have an accurate way to measure temperature in either of them right now and they are both in storage to get them prepared for upgrading.


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:34 pm 
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Ah, gotcha. Definitely worth investing in an OBDii reader.... they are invaluable for logging data that comes with changes!


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:29 pm 
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Still waiting on my replacement ATF cooler hoses, but went ahead and put a little detail work in.... With the mechanical fan gone, the shroud is also gone, so some hose management is no longer present. ;) I didn't need them flopping about, so I made a little panel to keep the hoses located, and to ensure the fan doesn't get jostled off the radiator.

Image

I had expected to also go ahead and wire the fan in, but realized the wiring for the fan is a metric size that's about 7ga, and I only have 8ga butt splices... and they don't fit. So I gotta order some 6ga ones.

I will mount the fan relay to the left side of the car, near the battery. I need to get a better fuse solution as well - right now I have a 60a maxifuse stuff into some random connector. It works, but it's not good... I need to find a real maxifuse holder for that, but it'll also go on the right side. So far this install is looking pretty clean, which makes me happy.

Since I was stalled out on this, I decided to work on some other things today... and that necessitated moving the Jeep. It didn't go far - like 20' - but it did do that under its own power... piddling ATF all the way. ;) So I've got about five minutes and 20' on this motor and it hasn't exploded. Joy!


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:32 am 
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looking good!

Since I left my shroud off I had to get creative with zip-ties but I like that panel. Makes a place to record timing belt changes etc too.

Baby steps...

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2005 Liberty CRD, with 111,XXX miles. New rockers, exhaust valves, Provent, EGR block & butterfly delete & V6 air box

1998 XJ 4.0L, stock with 109,XXX miles

First Jeep: 1962 Willys CJ-3B


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:21 pm 
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Received my Sunsong ATF cooler hoses yesterday. I did not realize these hoses don't include the end fittings... the intention is to remove the fittings from the factory hoses and re-use them. I looked up replacing the ends (#52119547AA) but they are $15-$20 EACH and I'd need four of them. There is a Dorman version (#800723) but it's not any less expensive and I'm sure as doo doo not buying Dorman for the same money as OE. Man, people say owning European cars is expensive but I guess they've never owned a Chrysler. $4 o-rings and $20 tube fittings. SHEEESH!

I could easily replace the external o-ring on the fitting, but I'm not confident I can get the inner one out without damaging it. I do not want to damage it then find out no replacement is available locally! So, uh, rather than run that risk or fork over another $60-$80 and delay another week, I'm going to reuse my fittings. If they turn out to leak I will replace them then.

Should be a busy weekend....

1. Replace ATF lines
2. Add coolant & pressure test
3. Finish wiring in electric fan (at least to a manual switch)
4. Actually drive the darn thing! (with massively expired registration!)
5. PRAY for no oil leaks

Um... WRT to #4, ground points G105 & G106 (IIRC) appear to be under the battery tray... does that seem accurate?


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:40 pm 
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Got the ATF cooler lines replaced. Not sure I would have made a different call, but the Sunsong parts are not a good fit. Definitely a few issues, but they'll work out okay for now. I'll figure something out later. They don't leak, so it's an improvement. ;)

Cooling system passed a vacuum and pressure test, so I filled it up. Anti-climactic, but key to letting the motor run for more than a minute at a time. :)

I did the initial wiring for the fan - positive from the control center up front, and grounded to a stud near the ECM. I connected the coil of the relay to the ASD relay's output:

Image

and, for now, ran the control wires through the driver's door jamb. It's good enough to test the fan... :)

Image

At 95% duty cycle the fan is off, and it goes faster and faster until 20% at which point it's at max speed and anything further causes it to stop.

I've not run the engine to "hot" at this point - just to 280F or so. Idling in the driveway that takes an eternity! But it ran for probably at hour today, mostly idle but little throttle here and there for good measure.

I've got two obvious issues:

1. The factory electric fan runs all the time, and I don't know why. I tested the relays and they work. The fan comes on as soon as the engine is started, even when it's stone cold. The AC is off. The AC system has a vacuum in it, and I tried disconnecting the two pressure sensors to see if that changed anything. There are no CELs. I have the relays out right now to keep it from running, but I gotta fix this. There isn't much in the manual on this, but since the fan relay coils get power from THE ASD relay and ground from the ECM, the only culprit is the ECM running the fan... But why?

2. There is, of course, an oil leak. It's not THE leak - I'm sure I need road time to see if that's fixed. But a very slow drip from the turbo. I can't tell if it's the feed or return - but all the related seals & gaskets are new.

Image

You can see the bottom of the hot side housing is damp. I put a little arm onto the two return bolts & feed banjo, hopefully that cures it. It's slow enough I'm not worried, but it's no long-term plan.

Gonna try and sneak it out on the road this week.... Praying for no (additional) leaks!


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 3:05 pm 
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Like all things CRD, the FSM is not super helpful in diagnosing this always-on fan.

The button in the HVAC panel talks to the BCM per 8W-45-5
Most of the AC system (coil, cabin heater, radiator fans, low pressure switch) all talk to the ECM per 8W-42-6
The AC pressure transducer (aka high pressure switch) talks to the FCM per 8W-42-7

What I think happens:

So the button tells the BCM "AC request," the BCM tells the FCM "AC request," and the FCM checks the pressure transducer (near the compressor) to see that system pressure is within an acceptable range. The FCM *must* send an AC request to the ECM, as it's the ECM which is responsible for engaging the compressor coil and turning on the fan. Right?

I'd entertained the possibility that there's a wiring problem, but that seems unlikely. That fan relay coils are powered by the ASD relay and grounded by the ECM. If that ground was bad, the fan would start as soon as the key is switched on, but it doesn't.... it waits until the engine is started. That sure seems like everything is behaving in the wiring department.

There really isn't much room for error here - it's all CAN messages until it gets to the ECM which turns the relays on or off. The only reason it would turn them on is if there is a an active AC request *and* the pressure switch reads pressure. It can't read pressure, there is none. It can't have an AC request, the button is off.

The fan will also respond to high temps, but OBDII shows coolant temperature that agrees with the gauge. High temps don't seem on the table.

Why is the ECM pulling the relay coils down? And why *both* of them and not high speed or low speed? What am I missing?

Also, I wanna say, again, the FSM was written by idiots. It says:

Quote:
The A/C high pressure switch is connected in series electrically with the A/C low pressure switch between ground and the engine control module (ECM)


and

Quote:
Check for continuity between both terminals of the A/C high pressure switch. There should be continuity.


but the wiring diagram *clearly* indicates the "high pressure switch" is actually a 3-wire pressure transducer connected to the FCM. Stupid.


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:02 pm 
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The sensor itself is clearly a pressure transducer, not a simple switch. 3 wires, 5v reference voltage on one pin. Stupid FSM.

The only theory I have right now is that with an out-of-range value from the switch, the ECM doesn't know what to do and runs the fan as a failsafe. I imagine the only way to find out is to charge the thing up and cross my fingers.


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:09 pm 
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Got nowhere further on my to do list, but with the fan relays removed the big issue isn't so much a big issue. ;)

It has very expired tags, so under cover of night I snuck it onto the road. Over 17 miles of mid-size surface streets with a little traffic and 25-50mph speeds, no warning lights and no fires.

Unfortunately, I have doubt the oil leak is cured. Arriving back home, there was a moderate size drip under the bell housing and a moderate size drip from the starter... Issues previously experienced. Nowhere *near* the volume, literally just drips, but from the same places.

The only thing that gives me slight hope is that the drips are *black* oil, and what's in the sump is still pretty light colored having only 45 minutes of running on it. I have my fingers crossed that I'm just seeing remnants of the old leak being reheated and coming out. I have this thought in the back of my head that I neglected to clean up the pool of oil at the bottom of the bell housing before I put the motor back in. I'm really hoping that's the case. If not, it's a multithousand dollar lesson learned, and this Jeep has a date with the river.


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:33 pm 
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Hoping this is what I failed to clean up, and the source of the drip.

Image

This picture is from a year ago, but I have a distinct recollection of setting the motor in place and thinking, crap, I forgot to clean that up.

Really, seriously hoping.


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 7:50 am 
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Location: Central KY
Your theory sounds plausible since the oil in the sump is "clean" and the drip is black. I'll bet it fizzles out eventually. Fingers crossed...

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2005 Liberty CRD, with 111,XXX miles. New rockers, exhaust valves, Provent, EGR block & butterfly delete & V6 air box

1998 XJ 4.0L, stock with 109,XXX miles

First Jeep: 1962 Willys CJ-3B


Last edited by krb on Fri Jan 22, 2021 6:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 3:15 pm 
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Did another 20 miles last night - roughly the same route, but with a little more stop & go including a stop for fuel. Running on a quarter tank of diesel leftover from 2017 wasn't feeling great. ;) Upon return, there was some black blood at the bottom of the bellhousing & starter, but even less than before. I'm feeling hopeful.

I have the mechanical fan gone and the factory electric fan unplugged - I just have a PWM signal generator taped to the dashboard so I can control the BMW fan manually. ;) I'm not gonna rely on the factory gauge to tell me it's hot, so I've been driving around with OBDII scanners. I've had some weird results! I plugged in my Ultragauge (a little OLED OBD live data display) as it's the most convenient, but after 4-5 minutes of running it just stops showing data. Even weirder, after that's happened NO OBDII tool will connect to the car. I next plugged my Autel MD802, which is what I've been using over the past couple weeks to monitor the engine when it idles in the driveway. It worked for about 15 minutes, then disconnected and would not reconnect either as a generic OBDII scanner or as a Chrysler-specific scanner... in OBDII mode it couldn't find *any* live data, in Chrysler mode it just sat there "trying to connect." That was all Tuesday night. Last night, I brought with an OBDLink MX along with Torque Pro on my phone. That stayed connected for the full length of the trip and worked perfectly.

No real idea why some tools work and others don't. Kind of annoying. Also kind of don't care. :D

The *point* is that I'm shocked at how stable engine temps are. In 50F ambient, it warms up to 180F within two miles. During the remaining 8 miles of surface streets out temperature stays between 176F and 183F, even at long stop lights. Park for about 30 minutes, then the same thing on the 10 miles back. It'll probably be a week or three until I can finalize the e-fan setup, but I'm feeling a lot better about running with no fan, at least under these conditions.

I can't help but wonder if the factory mechanical fan contributes to short thermostat life, maybe even other ill effects of low temperature. A mechanical fan is always spinning, even when the clutch is open the fan is running at ~20%. Seems like it's going to be suppressing coolant temps even further at stops & low speed. With no fan, hovering around 180F means the thermostat is in a constant state of opening and closing... with a mechanical fan I'd think that swing would be even wider. I can't imagine that's good for the thermostat motor.

I would really like to know what sort of performance people see with the mechanical fan, and with the mechanical fan + TDF's thermostat. This is intriguing to me... I'll keep my eye on it as I put more miles on, and as temps increase seasonally. My evening drive is to take the dog to her favorite park, so the timing & conditions are very reliable.


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 8:56 pm 
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I've now logged 100 miles since putting the engine back in. What's kinda fun about that is that I bought this Liberty in 2016 with 179,640 miles on it, parked it at 180,010 miles. Of that 370 miles, 100 of it was the trip home. It now has 180,109. The last week represents 20% of the total number of miles I've driven this thing. The dollar per mile ratio here is quite poor! My commuter right now is a 1993 Saab 900, which I bought for a parts car and paid $500 for. I've done 1100 miles in it with the only cost being fuel. Eeek.

Anyway, I am not sure I fixed the leak from the turbo drain, but it's better. I can't tell if what I saw this afternoon is remnants or new... but it's less than before, so progress.

I'm still seeing oil at the bottom of the bell housing, but it's less every day. No more oil from the starter for a couple days. What was on the bottom of the bell housing today is better described as a film than a drip, so I'm really hoping at this point it's just leftovers and will be gone entirely soon. It's certainly never gone this far under my watch without making a terrible mess. The only reason I ever care right now is I don't want a surprise in the future.... if it kept up this rate of loss forever, I'd be *fine* with it.

Made a little more progress on the fan wiring... I permanently installed a 60 amp maxi fuse:

Image

Image

Next I need to find a mountable base for the relay. Right now, it's zip tied to the front cross member... functional, but not pretty. ;)

I need to accumulate the parts to make the fan controller as well, but that's not pressing.

I'm pretty confident at this point the motor isn't gonna explode, so as soon as it's not 45F here, I will charge up the AC. I'm sure the front fan is adequate for cooling in this weather. Once that's done, I can swing by the smog inspection and - finally - get it registered again. Oh, once that's done I believe I gotta make an appointment with a dealer for some sort of recall from last year. Cannot forget that!


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