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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 2:22 pm 
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Nice! That would be perfect. Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 6:45 pm 
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Yep, that worked perfect!

Image

Image

Not much to see, which is the way I like it!

The little electrical doodad in the second picture is just hanging out right now - I want to have access to it for a little bit before permanently placing it under the dash.

The recap:

Electric fan from a BMW F30. This is a 600w, DC, brushless, PWM-controlled fan. It moves an insane amount of air at full speed.
Re-using the BMW's 70a (!) relay
Power for the fan comes directly from the positive junction on the fusebox, through a 60a maxi fuse, to the BMW relay
The relay is triggered by the factory ASD relay, such that when the key is on the fan is "enabled," but will run only with a valid PWM signal OR if the PWM input is left floating (failsafe)
Y adapter for the factory ECT sensor sends ECT output voltage to the cabin

Inside the cabin is this thing:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VARIABLE-PWM-F ... Swxv1epmGn

It gets power from the ASD relay, is grounded to the stud by the ECM, and is wired to the PWM fan and the factory ECT sensor.

At 195F degrees it runs the fan at minimum speed (about 10%) and it has a linear ramp to about 210F degrees where it's at full speed. In my manual testing, with ambient temperatures at 70F, the fan running at 30% will shed heat *fast*. I'm thinking it will never get to full speed. If that turns out to be true as it warms up around here, I'll raise increase the activation temp a bit higher. I just didn't want to run the chance of runaway temps until I know how this does when it's 100F outside. Since the fan relay and control module are both powered by the ASD relay, they can run for run for a short while after shutdown... I might add a capacitor to give me ~30s of runtime just to take the edge of in hot weather shutdown, but I'm not sure that's useful.

Total cost on this was about $280. I'm (initially) very happy with the result. The engine warms up quicker since there's no mechanical fan always spinning. Fuel economy is a bit better. It runs quieter without the mechanical fan, and at <50% speed the BMW fan might as well be silent - multiple times I've had to pop the hood to be sure it's running. Being a PWM fan, there's no huge inrush current, and since (so far) it spends most of its time at 20-30% speed, it's only using a few amps keeping engine temps under control. Access to accessories & the serpentine belt is vastly improved. This whole thing was a win, so I guess I owe FFD a big thank you for not responding to my emails and setting me off on adventure. :/


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:44 pm 
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It's been warming up here a bit - temps in the 80s - and the electric fan is more prone to running while sitting in traffic. I've left the controller in a place where I can watch the LED, just so I can see what that happens. What I have observed is that the fan kicks on at 195F, runs at about 15% speed for a short while, temps get back down to 190F, and the it shuts off again. Watching the LED is critical here, because at 15% the fan is silent, you cannot tell when it cycles.

I never paid attention to the mechanical fan so I don't know how it operates, but keeping the engine flawlessly in a 5 degree window is awesome. A narrow temperature range helps eliminate thermal stresses which translates directly to longer life of everything involved - especially the head gasket. I'm very interested to see how things progress as temps get over 100F this summer.

Also, the rear left window I'd previously replaced finally broke. The little ball joint pressed into the glass lift popped out, and the knurls were ruined in the process so it couldn't be repaired. I hit up a junkyard and grabbed glass and regulator for an '06, which has a totally different lift system. Not sure if it's better or worse, but it's what was available. :D It took a little work to replace the glass, but it wasn't difficult or time consuming, and I practiced on some junkyard cars first. :D

Tomorrow the Jeep goes in for a couple recalls. I'll be interested to hear the inevitable "service recommendations" the dealership comes back with. I always like listening to the service advisor read off the "needs ATF service" or whatever and then watching his face when I corner him and ask him to explain how a transmission with 1000 miles on it needs service already.


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 5:25 pm 
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We've hit that time of the year when temps soar above 100F and as much as I hate that, I have been anxiously awaiting it to see how the fan does. :)

With ambient temps between 100F and 105F on surface streets, I've observed the engine will stay pretty consistently between 188F and 190F by itself. This is cruising along at 40-70mph, some stoplights, but no big throttle and relatively little sitting.

When I give it the boot, temps will climb to 195F to 200F, but the scenario where I'm WOT in a Jeep for any length of time seems contrived. :D Stoplight to stoplight is about all I care about, and I never saw temps over 200F.

During prolonged sitting - intersections that take multiple light signals to get through or creeping at single-digit speeds, I'm seeing those same 195F-200F temps. Bumper to bumper, other hot cars, etc.

In these situations the fan stays at very low speed - maybe 20%. If I'm not stuck, the fan will run for a few minutes then shut off once I get rolling and air flow takes over. If I'm just sitting there, it seems ~20% speed is enough to cool the engine, but it does take a while - 5-10 minutes. I believe there is a way to make the fan go to higher speed sooner, but I think I'm okay with this performance. 200F should be plenty safe for the engine, so the gradual cooldown isn't a problem and the low speeds shouldn't be a burden on fan life.

Hopefully sometime soon I'll see how the Jeep does in the Sierras, but based on what I've seen thus far, I think it's gonna be fine. I'm pretty impressed with how well a 15 year old radiator is doing.. it's a new water pump and thermostat, but an old radiator. Not bad!


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:41 pm 
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Location: Australia
You have done a great job of researching and developing your cooling system. If these mods could be made into a kit of some sort I think it may have some appeal. A great project with a good outcome!

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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:43 pm 
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The amount of work was incredibly low - junkyard fan, time with a Dremel, maxi fuse, and five wires. Honestly the most difficult/annoying part was cutting back the fan shroud with a Dremel... it was a fine line between making progress and gumming up the cutting wheel with melted plastic. :) I doubt I have an hour of time invested and most of that was the blasted Dremel! :D


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:23 pm 
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thesameguy wrote:
The amount of work was incredibly low - junkyard fan, time with a Dremel, maxi fuse, and five wires. Honestly the most difficult/annoying part was cutting back the fan shroud with a Dremel... it was a fine line between making progress and gumming up the cutting wheel with melted plastic. :) I doubt I have an hour of time invested and most of that was the blasted Dremel! :D


I have a minature circular saw attachment for my dremel. No idea where I got it, probably from a Chinese cheap junk store. Its about 1 1/2" in diameter and has fine cross cut teeth. It works well on plastic and soft alloy. Plastic doesnt tend to melt on it.
The electronics you used is more of the kit idea.

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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:04 pm 
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I'm sure news of the west coast heat dome has gotten out at this point... we've been enjoying "catastrophic" heat for weeks. It's not as bad here as it is in some places, but it was 110F for three days in row, so it's not great either. Saturday night at 11pm it was 90F out. Not even the deserts here stay that hot at night.

Happy to report this was not an issue for the Jeep - the cooling system kept up easily, with a net +2F the worst fallout... my temp spikes would hit 203F instead of 201F. Not hot enough to turn the electric fans on, but bloody close. I didn't do *that* much driving, but couldn't avoid it entirely. All good.

Also, it turns out my leak likely *was* ATF, not power steering, and the problem was probably the left-side port on the cooler. My not quite right aftermarket cooler hoses didn't hold up... or maybe the modifications I needed to make to get them to fit at all weren't quite right. Thankfully, I'd kept the OE hoses, so I took those over to the local Parker and had them rebuilt with new rubber components. $70 well spent, leak cured.

While I was down there replacing the hoses (which isn't super fun) I was happy to see the leak from the bell housing seems to have finally stopped. No further drips in the last 300-400 miles. Seems like the leak *was* probably leftovers from before the RMS repair. I'm not counting chickens yet, but *seems like* everything is at last 100% dialed in.


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:17 pm 
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Or, leak NOT cured. The issue is/was the cooler itself. It was leaking ATF from the driver's side end tube. Being part of the AC condenser, the replacement part is very expensive ($300) and, possibly, discontinued. Super.

Since I'd had the original cooler lines modified, I was left with a nice 24 degree FlareLok compression fitting on one side, so I used an adapter to go from that to standard AN 37 degree:

Image

It's a very clean, reliable connection.

I then installed a Setrab 50-910-7612 under the bumper:

Image

This cooler should be quite an improvement over factory - it's about the same surface area but about 3x the thickness. I have one tiny little detail to attend to this afternoon, but then it's ready to go.


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:34 pm 
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That is a good location, that is where I mounted my 10 plate stacked oil cooler by Derale using AN fittings as well.
Once suggestion for your location, add some protective expanded metal over the cooler for protection from rocks, road debris, etc..
Cheap insurance! :wink:

Image Image

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05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited :JEEPIN:
Ironman Springs/Bilstein/Shocks
Yeti StgIV Hot Tune
Sasquatch BatteryTray
No FCV/EGR
Samcos/ProVent
SunCoast/Transgo
Carter Intank-pmp
2mic.Sec.Fuel Filter
Flowmaster/NO CAT
V6Airbox/noVH
GM11 bld.fan/NAPAHDClutch
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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:14 pm 
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Location: Lebanon, KY, USA
I love these redneck modifications.

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2016 Grand Cherokee Overland CRD.


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:57 pm 
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user113 wrote:
I love these redneck modifications.

Necessity is the mother of all inventions! :jester:
If they don't make something, engineer it and build it.... :idea:

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Supporting Vendor and Moderator of LOST
05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited :JEEPIN:
Ironman Springs/Bilstein/Shocks
Yeti StgIV Hot Tune
Sasquatch BatteryTray
No FCV/EGR
Samcos/ProVent
SunCoast/Transgo
Carter Intank-pmp
2mic.Sec.Fuel Filter
Flowmaster/NO CAT
V6Airbox/noVH
GM11 bld.fan/NAPAHDClutch
IronrockArms/wwdieselMount


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:04 am 
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Joined: Sat May 29, 2021 7:59 am
Posts: 61
Location: Central Minnesota
thesameguy wrote:
Yep, that worked perfect!

Image

Image

Not much to see, which is the way I like it!

The little electrical doodad in the second picture is just hanging out right now - I want to have access to it for a little bit before permanently placing it under the dash.

The recap:

Electric fan from a BMW F30. This is a 600w, DC, brushless, PWM-controlled fan. It moves an insane amount of air at full speed.
Re-using the BMW's 70a (!) relay
Power for the fan comes directly from the positive junction on the fusebox, through a 60a maxi fuse, to the BMW relay
The relay is triggered by the factory ASD relay, such that when the key is on the fan is "enabled," but will run only with a valid PWM signal OR if the PWM input is left floating (failsafe)
Y adapter for the factory ECT sensor sends ECT output voltage to the cabin

Inside the cabin is this thing:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VARIABLE-PWM-F ... Swxv1epmGn

It gets power from the ASD relay, is grounded to the stud by the ECM, and is wired to the PWM fan and the factory ECT sensor.

At 195F degrees it runs the fan at minimum speed (about 10%) and it has a linear ramp to about 210F degrees where it's at full speed. In my manual testing, with ambient temperatures at 70F, the fan running at 30% will shed heat *fast*. I'm thinking it will never get to full speed. If that turns out to be true as it warms up around here, I'll raise increase the activation temp a bit higher. I just didn't want to run the chance of runaway temps until I know how this does when it's 100F outside. Since the fan relay and control module are both powered by the ASD relay, they can run for run for a short while after shutdown... I might add a capacitor to give me ~30s of runtime just to take the edge of in hot weather shutdown, but I'm not sure that's useful.

Total cost on this was about $280. I'm (initially) very happy with the result. The engine warms up quicker since there's no mechanical fan always spinning. Fuel economy is a bit better. It runs quieter without the mechanical fan, and at <50% speed the BMW fan might as well be silent - multiple times I've had to pop the hood to be sure it's running. Being a PWM fan, there's no huge inrush current, and since (so far) it spends most of its time at 20-30% speed, it's only using a few amps keeping engine temps under control. Access to accessories & the serpentine belt is vastly improved. This whole thing was a win, so I guess I owe FFD a big thank you for not responding to my emails and setting me off on adventure. :/


Awesome write up on that fan. Are you still happy with it? If so, I think I am going to start pulling parts together to do that.

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Sasquatch battery tray
Cummins lift pump
GDE Eco tune and trans tune
Samco intercooler hoses
Rocky Road lift w/Toyo 245/75/16

05 CRD swap underway into 76 FJ40


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:32 pm 
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I would say 95% satisfied.

I've been running this setup for however many months, from days where it's 60F ambient to recent days where it's 110F ambient. Cooling performance is extremely good - I've never had temps go beyond 203F and extremely rarely beyond 201F... the 203F scenarios are hot weather, sitting in traffic, and doing stoplight drags. Temps will spike and then come back down... very predictable.

The 5% unsatisfied is:

1. The window between "start temperature" and "max temperature" is slightly too wide for my taste. This causes the fan to start a little earlier than I'd like and not ramp quite fast as I'd like. The result is that when driving slowly in hot weather, the fan may be on at ~10% or so, but not actually doing anything which is just wasteful. It's not worth losing sleep over... 10% is basically silent and can't be more than an amp. Still, it's not perfect. I would rather have the fan come on a little more aggressively a little later.

2. The AC override runs the fan at 100%, which on a 600w fan is nutty fast. As a result, I'm not using the AC override, I'm still using the factory 2-speed electric fan to handle that work. In an ideal world, I'd be able to run that 600w fan at 50% or something and dump the factory electric fan entirely.

I'm not losing sleep over any of these. I've yet to have a reason to regret this choice. Temps are incredibly stable which should translate directly to long head gasket life.

FWIW, I also installed these controllers on my 1985 Saab and 1986 Merkur ... slightly different approaches since I used different fans, but the same controller, same sensor, same logic.

Also, there's a rev 2 of this controller coming out in August that will fix #2 by having a user-settable 50% or 100% switch for the AC override. They also offered to make a special run of controllers that would fix #1 for me - so I may go for that. I would retrofit all three cars.


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:04 pm 
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Location: Central Minnesota
Thanks for the info and update. I won't be ready until this winter, so please keep us informed if the come out with V2 or you have a special run made. I would be up for one. Thanks again.

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2005 KJ Crd Used to own in 2014.. bought back again in 2021
Sasquatch battery tray
Cummins lift pump
GDE Eco tune and trans tune
Samco intercooler hoses
Rocky Road lift w/Toyo 245/75/16

05 CRD swap underway into 76 FJ40


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