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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:52 pm 
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That's for that!

I will be pulling the oil pan so I can check for debris, crank end play, etc., so maybe I can see something else in there at the same time.

My concern with the rear carrier is that there is inexplicable damage on the exterior surface, and I'm haunted by the feeling that two of the five bolts were not properly tightened. If it was wobbling around, there could be damage to it or a crank bearing, so I want to be sure that's not the case.


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:17 pm 
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flash7210 wrote:
About the ream main seal...
Pay carefull attention to how everything comes apart. Thurst washers have to go back in exactly the way they came out.
Hub adapter is the first part to be removed.
I suspect your rear carrier is still ok. But remove it so you can inspect the rear main bearing.
When installing the carrier, put some sealer on the inside lip to prevent leaks.
I have not done this job myself. Just reviewing whats been posted before.
My RMS has had a small leak since like forever.
Installing a Provent and switching to 15w-40 has noticably reduced the leak.
I also dont fill the oil all the way to the FULL mark. Just about halfway between FULL and ADD.

I agree, I remember one poster had some real issues of the correct stacking order of the parts. The FSM does not really show a good diagram of the parts exploded. :(
My rear seal seeps a tiny bit of oil, just enough to form a wet spot on the bottom of the bell housing. But certainly not enough to warrant changing.

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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:56 pm 
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I had the foresight to record me taking it apart:

https://1drv.ms/v/s!AqwvoBt9ZBp2gpkUsbi ... A?e=BFDAa8

but of course I can't escape the worry that the guy who did the RMS originally had already screwed it up. Anyone care to review that video and see if it makes sense?


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:53 pm 
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Machine shop says:

1. Two hairline cracks in the valve area ("maybe ok, probably should weld")
2. Repairing the two cracks will need two valve seats
3. Most valve guides are at the extreme of spec
4. Five wobbly intake valves
5. Two exhaust studs need extracting

Total damage including the parts I'm supplying will be about $1000, which is much cheaper than ID Parts $1700 reman, so that's good. Still, a lot of money tied up in the head!

I guess the upside is that these needs push the repair out a couple weeks, so you know, more time to not work on cars. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:29 pm 
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thesameguy wrote:

My concern with the rear carrier is that there is inexplicable damage on the exterior surface, and I'm haunted by the feeling that two of the five bolts were not properly tightened. If it was wobbling around, there could be damage to it or a crank bearing, so I want to be sure that's not the case.


The second time I had the gearbox off my 425 VM because I had an oil leak. This was after replacing the RMS 50k miles earlier, it turned out several of the bolts had come loose & one had come out. Being a manual, I could feel something was not right when I put my foot on the clutch (crank creep). Turned out several of the wave lock washers were bad. Replaced them all & loctited all the bolts in. The RMS was fine. No leak since.
Your situation sounds like some one in the past has replaced the RMS & been very rough in their work, hence the damage. When you have a bad RMS you can see oil running down away from it & oil radiating on the hub & flex plate. If you can see oil leaking from the bolts & when you remove the bolts they are wet with oil its probably the oil leaking past the bolts. You probably just need to put it all back together with loctite, good quality silicone & maybe Hylomar.

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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:32 pm 
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That's interesting about loose bolts, because that's exactly what I feel happened. I don't think a human caused all the damage on the rear carrier - TBH, it looks like a piece of metal - like a bolt - was being flung around between the flex plate and the block. I mean, there is NO reason for all that damage.

The whole back of the block was so oily I can't rightly say whether there was flakiness from the bolts specifically. There was oil everywhere, and in HUGE quantities. Not normal "drippy RMS" levels... every time I stopped the car there was a literal puddle of oil underneath several inches in diameter. Crazy amount of oil.


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:09 am 
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thesameguy wrote:
That's interesting about loose bolts, because that's exactly what I feel happened. I don't think a human caused all the damage on the rear carrier - TBH, it looks like a piece of metal - like a bolt - was being flung around between the flex plate and the block. I mean, there is NO reason for all that damage.

The whole back of the block was so oily I can't rightly say whether there was flakiness from the bolts specifically. There was oil everywhere, and in HUGE quantities. Not normal "drippy RMS" levels... every time I stopped the car there was a literal puddle of oil underneath several inches in diameter. Crazy amount of oil.


I was loosing about a quart every 100 miles once the bolt came out. Normally with a RMS leak, if you wipe it clean, more oozes out around the surface it seals on the hub. To get a RMS to leak a lot of oil you need a high positive pressure in the crank case & oil would be leaking in other places.
Given the carrier damage I suspect there has been loose bolts in the past & one has come out.

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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:05 pm 
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Yeah, exactly. I don't know really what's behind that carrier, what sort of high pressure source it might block off. I'll be interested to poke around once I get it off. :)

The whole situation is really weird. I can't believe the shop that did the RMS not mentioning, "Hey, there was a bolt flopping around in there" or "there was a bolt missing." Makes me wonder if maybe someone had been in there BEFORE that even. Still, I would expect a good mechanic to mention "Holy crap, that carrier is all banged up!" Bah.... this is why I virtually never pay people to work on cars for me. :( I should have just committed to all this head gasket/rockers/valves work three years ago instead of wasting $1000 paying someone to not improve things. Boo.


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:17 pm 
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If its the same as the 425, when the carrier comes out, you can see inside the crankcase. It has a 2 piece thrust washer on it as well. I used plenty of silicone around the Orings when it was going back together. Only used viton Oring to reduce chance of degradation.

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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:34 pm 
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Location: Oregon Coast Dairy Country. Land of stumps, dumps, and "Liquid Pumps"
There is history, in the last few years, of a few having problems with the heads of the flex plate-to-TC bolts having the heads break off.
You may have acquired one of these, or potentially, one that suffered a similar failure sometime in the past.

One had loose bolts, and assumably, the vibration hammered the bolts to shear.
The others have been
- assembled with improper bolts, which failed, and
- over-torquing, causing stretch-deformation between the head and the threads where they entered the TC mounting pad. The deformed section ultimately suffered tensile failure.

Some of these were discovered when the heads made bad noises during their carnival ride around inside the bellhousing.
One was discovered when the flex plate would no longer drive the TC fast enough to move the vehicle.
Another one was discovered when one bolt head was spat out the access hole above the starter, and onto his nice clean garage floor, where he discovered it like a :grim: warning.

What ever you eventually do, make sure you use NEW OEM Mopar bolts on everything that involves bolts going through the flex plate, with BLUE threadlocker, and a good, accurate, torque wrench to tighten them.

Do not undertighten them
Do not overtighten them
Do not re-use old bolts in this application, no matter how good they look.
Do not use cheaper "they're the same thing" bolts from a hardware store or parts house, because they're NOT. IIRC Sasquatch and/or IDParts carries sets of the correct bolts.

The threads of the OEM bolts are cut in a slightly different way and engage the tapped thread holes differently than standard mm x pitch cut bolt threads. There are some aftermarket companies that make OEM or better quality bolts, but they are often much more expensive.. ARP , for example, makes sets that not only are correctly threaded, but drilled for installation with safety wire, commonly used with racing engines. Big Money...
Have Fun!
:2cents:
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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:15 pm 
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That's really interesting... a possible explanation.

When the RMS was done last time, I bought new Mopar flex plate bolts. It's definitely ill-advised to reuse flex plate bolts ever, so I guess I can add those the disposable investment.


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:34 am 
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GordnadoCRD has good advice about the bolts. I considered drilling holes in each of them so I could wire them but decided new ones with new wavey washers & loctite would probably do. Has not been a problem since.

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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:01 pm 
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Definitely blue Loctite... I think that's strong advice for any flex plate. The (few) automatics I work on all recommend the same.

Placing the order for head parts now... valve guides, intake valves (might as well do all 8... ). I will throw an oil pan gasket on there too.

This week I will pull off the oil pan, see what there is to see, and check crank end play. Hopefully, there is nothing to see there! Is there anything else in the sump area that I should anticipate replacing? O-rings for pickup tube, oil jets etc.?


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:57 am 
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suggested method to diagnose oil leak---
oil rail on right side of 2.8 block has threaded plugs--remove one and connect air over oil pressurized assembly with 50 psi air compressing around pint of oil -0 to 10 weight---into which tracer --fluorescein--or gm diagnostic dye--black light receptive--is added

polycarbonate air compressor trap bowls certified for 150 psi works for this air/oil assembly---which is helpful with no need to run engine --to check for leaks


looks like your rms seal may have been installed backwards
I paid 6K to have a John Deere 310 backhoe diesel rebuilt--the experts installed two seals on the stanadyne rotary pump backwards--first time I ran engine 1.5 gallons of diesel diluted engine oil with near catastrophic failure-- :(

pulsenpal


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:13 pm 
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That's a great technique for checking for oil leaks. Before I pulled the motor out I had wondered about doing exactly that but wasn't confident it was a good practice. I will definitely give that a go once the motor is back together and - theoretically - ready to go in. I do NOT want to take this expletive apart again for a good long time.

From the sound of your post, it looks like you have some experience with the RMS on this motor - is it ok to reach out to you when I get to that point for a verification? The FSM is about useless when it comes to details like this. Actually, the FSM lacking in a lot of areas. It's no wonder all the Chrysler shops around me shied away from the RMS work a few years ago. They're likely no better at working on this motor than I am. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:19 pm 
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… Also, am I correct there are only four oil jets, each is sealed with one o-ring?


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:34 pm 
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I began diesel rebuilds in 1960--complete tear down and rebuild of two 2.8 crd engines

fabulous barrel monobloc construction with many compromised engine head components--we all struggle keeping these units purring

rear main seal is easy to reverse--and this appears to have occurred in your
engine---it also explains high volume lube oil leak

oil leaks are increasingly frowned upon by all who notice---tight Japanese
motors set standard on no leaks at 200K miles--your engine properly reassembled should have zero oil drips

check out my old posts for pics and info :)


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:36 pm 
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Yes, I am not a fan of oil leaks. My '67 Fleetwood doesn't leak a drop, but I cannot find an RMS to cure a slow drip from my '62 Falcon... not old-style rope seals and not new-style neoprene/rubber. It annoys me to no end! :D If I can get the Jeep back together I'm going to fix the Falcon by replacing the 3.3l six with a turbocharged 16v four cylinder. :D I won't lie, the thought occurred to not put the VM back in the Jeep.... :D


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:06 pm 
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The VM is a computer controlled engine, you would need to basically take every wire and module from the Jeep to make it work in any other body, INCLUDING the dash and steering column parts. It's a non-starter otherwise.

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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:06 pm 
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geordi wrote:
The VM is a computer controlled engine


So is the engine going in the Falcon. :) I doubt the security on the Chrysler ECM is much more complicated than Ford's. :)


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