Well, here I go... pulling the motor.

thesameguy · **Joined:** Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:24 pm **Posts:** 652

I bought this CRD a few years ago, put a huge amount of time & work into it, and then before I really even got to drive it anywhere it developed a massive oil leak from the back of the motor. Months spent diagnosing lead nowhere, my best theory is that a plug on the back of the block or head is leaking. And not a small amount. A lot.

So I parked it, and I just haven't had the budget or willpower to get back to it... until now.

Over the weekend I did a leak down test to ensure there weren't any internal problems. That came back VERY clean, so at least I don't have to deal with any of that. My basic plan is to fix the leak, replace the head gasket, and replace the timing belt... I'm sure I will find other things along the way, but most everything that's not internal to the motor was addressed when I got it... motor mounts, transmission (torque converter, fluid pump), glow plugs, EGR, updated filter head, etc.

It'll be slow going as my October is packed, but I made good progress last night:

I'm following the FSM which is not entirely accurate... but so far I don't think it's lead me too far astray.

During my troubleshooting I added dye to the oil, so I'm hoping to find traces of that to lead me to the actual problem I'm trying to solve.

I think I may be able to have the motor out by the end of the week... then it's figure out what I need to order and then sit on my thumbs til it shows up.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:00 pm

Friendly advice:

Since your going to that much trouble and effort, you should replace all the exhaust valves.
If you don't and you put it all together and a few hundred or thousand miles down the road it drops (breaks) an exhaust valve and destroys the engine, you won't be a happy camper!
There have been quite a few LOST members who have reported having an exhaust valve break off when getting close to the 200k mark.
At a minimum it will destroy the head and possibly a piston rendering them both unusable.
And if and when this happens; in a few cases it has totally destroyed their whole engine to the point it is no longer usable and the complete engine had to be replaced. :grim:

Replacing all exhaust valves with new ones at this conjuncture with your engine out to repair an oil leak and while the head is removed is some awfully cheap insurance...

Billua · **Joined:** Sat Nov 25, 2006 5:05 pm **Posts:** 64

I just went through this exact same scenario with my 2005. In fact, it was a plug at the back of the head that was causing an EXXon Valdez whenever I stopped.

I spent the summer gathering parts and Geordi came by last week and did the work, considered stage 3.

Changing the exhaust valves is the minimum that should be done. I got all of my valves and valvetrain parts from ID Parts. Order the stuff well before the project as these are getting long in the tooth and parts are often backordered.

Good luck! It WILL be worth it when you are done. Yep

thesameguy · **Joined:** Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:24 pm **Posts:** 652

Sounds like solid advice.

Are there any tell-tale signs of impending failure? It would seem like there should be some indication of that before it actually happens. I will have a trusted machine shop go over the head prior to reinstalling no matter what... if there is something they can look for rather than just pre-emptively replacing valves I'd like to explore the possibility.

Edit: NM... I did not realize they're only $20ea. Last time I had to replace valves on a 4v/cyl head they were … a lot more.

Edit 2: Might as well start a parts list:
AC System parts - receiver/dryer, expansion valve, compressor, gaskets & O-rings for AC condenser I/O
Fan shroud (mine is missing a chunk), clutch, or electric conversion?
Parts of engine cover (maybe the wiring harness bracket!)
Flex plate cover (missing)

Done:
Exhaust Valves
Intake Valves (some were wobbly)
Valve Guides (many were worn)
Valve stem seals
Oil pan gasket
O-rings for oil jets, oil pickup tube
Both of the tensioners/pulleys for the serpentine belt (belt is new, alt pulley is new)
Cylinder head install kit (I don't think I'm going to ARP this... no plans on tunes, etc.)
Exhaust manifold studs/nuts/hardware
RMS + carrier o-rings (IDparts kit $69.95)
Rear Main Seal Thrust Washer
Rear carrier bolts (3x, all they had in stock)
Cam Seal kit (IDparts kit $19.95)
Rockers?
Valve Cover Gasket
Intake Elbow Gasket & Seal Kit (IDparts kit $9.99)
Intake Manifold Square Gasket
Rear carrier bolts (2x needed, 68029480AA)
Thermostat (IDparts is $134)
Timing Belt Gasket Kit (IDparts kit $44.95)
Timing Belt kit (belt, wp, etc.) (IDparts is $389)
Injector Seal & O-Ring Kit (IDparts kit $35.80)
Upper & lower radiator hoses

I am debating on replacing the fan clutch... I don't suspect it has an issue, but it's old.

The RMS was done when the torque converter & pump was replaced... presumably I should do the FMS & oil pan?

I'll need the timing belt tool set... I think I have everything else I need.

I want to replace the fan shroud and the engine cover... some ham-fisted mechanic broke both.

Edited: Added new parts to list, moved parts to Done

Billua · **Joined:** Sat Nov 25, 2006 5:05 pm **Posts:** 64

You are on the right track forgive me, I didn’t see how many miles yours has. If it’s closer to 200k than 100k, I would plan on rockers too. When Geordi took my camifold off, we found that half of my exhaust vAlves were not even opening due to broken stock rockers.

The replacements are a newer design and better.

I used a replacement head that I had rebuilt. But, you may or may not need valve seats also.

One thing is certain, you only want to do this once and it’s better to cry now by replacing wearables than having to tear into the engine again.

thesameguy · **Joined:** Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:24 pm **Posts:** 652

I'm at 180k. The thing runs GREAT - if not for the oil leak I wouldn't even be doing this. When I bought it, I thought it was a very solid purchase, miles notwithstanding, as it was super tight. I didn't realize the skid plates were literally covered with rock and dirt and absorbing all the oil that was leaking. Once I cleaned them, that oil was free to dump onto the ground... and then I parked it.

I'll check out the rockers when I pull the head and see what I see. I'd like to not spend that $400 if possible.. that's a really big number to add on top. I think I will go ahead and order the valves and valve stem seals so I have them for the machine shop (so they can get going as soon as the head is off)... save everything else (including rockers) for a second pass.

I guess worth mentioning is that I will probably only keep the CRD for another year or two, which represents maybe 8,000 miles of driving. Not that I wanna stick the next owner with broken rockers, but the $ per mile ratio already sucks.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:12 pm

Unfortunately there are NO tell-tale signs of impending failure?
They just all of a sudden with no warning give up and break off and when that happens it normally destroys the head and piston and sometimes cracks the piston liner.
In a few rare occasions, it has also destroyed the engine block as well.
So you can see why replacing exhaust valves can be mission critical.

Rockers with that many miles may or may not need replacing. Depends heavily on how long EGR was in service and how often oil changes were performed along with what type of oil was used.

As to the fan, there is a GM fan clutch and 11 blade plastic fan option that is much cheaper than the Mopar units. Parts available online and at NAPA.
It is for larger V8 GM engines with heavy duty tow packages and cools much better than the OEM parts.
See:> viewtopic.php?f=5&t=82941

thesameguy · **Joined:** Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:24 pm **Posts:** 652

Exhaust valves and valve stem seals are ordered, along with a radiator hose so I can cross the $200 free shipping at ID Parts.

As soon as the head comes off, I can get it over to the machine shop.

Of course, I actually gotta pull the motor out first.

Hopefully some time for that Thursday & Friday. I think I'm at Step 20 of the 65 steps in the FSM.

layback40 · **Posted:** Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:34 pm

Have a good read of Captain Dean's thread 'clicking & clanking....' its a must for anyone diving into one of these engines.

TKB4 · **Posted:** Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:06 am

The old style crimped rockers can give way any time regardless of bearing wear, but if still tight should be useable but that mileage is pushing it. I had 4 marginal rockers at about that mileage with meticulous maintenance and replaced all but I was keeping my jeep. The same one dropped a valve about 5,000 miles later and ruined piston ( I didn't replace exhaust valves).

I would do the ARP studs even if not keeping it . You get discount with the ID kit and its a great selling point as would be new rockers with receipts to prove it ,at least to any knowledgeable buyer. I would give at least $600 more for one that already had that work done.
A new head gasket wouldn't mean anything to me without ARP s as a buyer. Use the copper Kote type spray on all 4 surfaces of head.

Hope the oil leak is easily repairable.

Good Luck !!!

thesameguy · **Joined:** Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:24 pm **Posts:** 652

A +$600 sale for a +$1000 investment isn't really a great ROI though... which is the source of my hesitation.

The reason for doing the head gasket is solely that the motor is out. I would never take a motor with any sort of miles out of a car and not replace the head gasket. Unless it was a GM 3800 or NorthStar, in which case I wouldn't even look directly at the head gasket.

TKB4 · **Posted:** Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:42 pm

actually at id parts Rocker set is $379 and ARP with head gasket is $399 and head gasket with original bolts and you are supposed to use new bolts is 129.95 so the difference is 379 plus 399= 778 minus 130=648. So for $648 you not only purchased insurance for however long you will own it but make it worth much more when comes time to sell as well as make it much easier to sell faster. If I was doing it and planned to sell I would not change the head gasket unless it had something to do with the oil leak I would only put in ARP studs in the one by one fashion and save a lot of time and money and hassle and maintain the value otherwise same as what you are doing. You can get rockers much cheaper on eBay also.

I take that back I would still replace head gasket since you are replacing exhaust valves.

BTW I have reused head gaskets with ARP studs twice to make sure there wasn't a cracked block etc before putting a lot into jeep knowing I would redo everything within a few thousand miles if it was ok and these triple layered steel gaskets do pretty well with reuse if didn't have a long term leak. I have also corrected a slight head gasket leak with ARP studs one by one without removing head on one (I did do pressure test before total reassembly).

thesameguy · **Joined:** Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:24 pm **Posts:** 652

I made some good progress last night and am just about ready to pull the motor... I should be able to do it this weekend.

Where is the best place to attach an engine hoist? I have a balance bar, but there isn't much on the top of the motor to attach hooks or chains. I have some screw-in eyelets as well, but I'm not really seeing any good spots to install them. The camiforld is confounding!

geordi · **Posted:** Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:26 pm

thesameguy wrote:

Cylinder head install kit (I don't think I'm going to ARP this... no plans on tunes, etc.)
Exhaust Valves (not planning on replacing rockers, hopefully I don't regret it)
Valve stem seals
Timing kit (belt, wp, etc.)
Thermostat
Upper & lower radiator hoses
Gaskets & O-rings for AC condenser I/O
AC System parts - receiver/dryer, expansion valve, maybe compressor?
One of the tensioners/pulleys for the serpentine belt (belt is new, alt pulley is new)
Fan shroud (mine is missing a chunk)
Parts of engine cover (maybe the wiring harness bracket!)
Flex plate cover (missing)
I am debating on replacing the fan clutch... I don't suspect it has an issue, but it's old.
The RMS was done when the torque converter & pump was replaced... presumably I should do the FMS & oil pan?
I'll need the timing belt tool set... I think I have everything else I need.
I want to replace the fan shroud and the engine cover... some ham-fisted mechanic broke both.

Your parts list isn't bad, but I can save you a ton of money here.
Leave the AC system alone if you haven't already wasted it - you don't need to vent it to remove the motor, the compressor can be left in the engine bay fully connected.
The serpentine belt parts are "as needed" so not specific to this work. If the bearings are sloppy, replace as needed otherwise save that money.
There is no "flex plate cover" it is either the engine-side housing or the transmission.
The engine cover is cosmetic only, I've got at least a couple of them if you really really wanted it. BUT that also makes for a warm blanket for mice to live under, chewing on your wiring and dumping crap all over the top of the engine. Consider strongly forgetting about that.
The fan shroud - top half - is all you need for a safety cover. The bottom below the mounting bolts is useless, it is too far away from the fan to be any kind of duct and prevents removal of the fan and shroud except at the same time. Bad design.
The fan clutch can be replaced later, the Hayden is a good option. Most people don't even know that the clutch is bad in their CRD. This engine runs cool, not hot.
Skip the radiator hoses. This isn't a 1973 Valiant, the coolant doesn't rot out the hoses like in the old days. Boost hoses are another story however.
Valve stem seals - these are pressed-in, and I have not yet found a single one that needed to be replaced. Save the money. Just replace the valves, lap them to the existing seats and go.

You definitely want the ARP studs, the leaking head gasket problem is from the factory BOLTS not from any other source.

Sounds like you are well on your way with skill, good luck!

TKB4 · **Posted:** Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:53 pm

Here is a link to a video with sir sam removing an engine. You might be able to see or decipher where it is attached. I am curious also since I may be changing out an engine in future.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAaWJzBDrrI

If not in this one it may be in another one of his or you might pm him.
I believe racetracer has also had an engine out and maybe rancherman and others who might chime in but bet they didn't leave transmission on but sir sam has for sure.

thesameguy · **Joined:** Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:24 pm **Posts:** 652

Really appreciate the feedback.

geordi wrote:

Leave the AC system alone if you haven't already wasted it - you don't need to vent it to remove the motor, the compressor can be left in the engine bay fully connected.

The previous owner had some work done by a shadetree mechanic... it's so long ago I don't remember what it was, but the Jeep came to me with non-functioning AC as it had already been purged. Since it's been sitting in an unknown condition for 3+ years, I'd just assume start from a known state. Plus, this is Sacramento... temps are 100+ for months on end. Top notch AC is a must. (Not for me, half my cars don't have AC, but when it comes time to sell)

Quote:

There is no "flex plate cover" it is either the engine-side housing or the transmission.

The FSM references such a thing, but I didn't find one. But, it looks like there should be a little cover over the flex plate access above the starter. It looks like there are three or four tapped holes. I found it *really* odd that any OE would leave such a hole uncovered and assumed a previous mechanic lost or forgot it. Are you sure there is nothing back there?

Quote:

You definitely want the ARP studs, the leaking head gasket problem is from the factory BOLTS not from any other source.

The factory bolts got this CRD to 180k... I understand statistically they may not last forever, but the real future for this Jeep is another five or eight years and another 50-80k. After that it'll be 20 years old and fodder for a Pick & Pull. I'm reasonably confident new factory bolts will offer that service. I'm not 100% sold on this plan - ARP is still under consideration - but if the point of ARP is to get this thing to 2030... it's just not worth it.

As for the other stuff, I'm not going to pass on a $30 part (hoses, seals, etc.) and have to take stuff apart later to deal with a failure. I'll deal with everything I have reasonable access to now and have confidence of several years without having to take a wrench to it. I've been pretty successful driving old cars using this approach... and at 180,000 miles this Jeep is the *lowest mileage car* I daily!

Quote:

Sounds like you are well on your way with skill, good luck!

I hope so. I'm learning about Jeeps and turbodiesels at the same time.

I've got a lot of time building European cars, and turbo gasoline cars, and lots of turbo gasoline cars... but the CRD is first.

thesameguy · **Joined:** Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:24 pm **Posts:** 652

TKB4 wrote:

Here is a link to a video with sir sam removing an engine. You might be able to see or decipher where it is attached. I am curious also since I may be changing out an engine in future.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAaWJzBDrrI

Thanks - I'll take a look at it tonight!

geordi · **Posted:** Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:15 pm

Ok, so what you are calling a flex plate cover... Is just a semi-rectangular rubber plug. If it isn't there, then it is no big deal. That is how the bolts in the flex plate (four of them) are accessed, but otherwise there's nothing major going on in that area.

I understand about the heat, all my vehicles MUST have A/C, no exceptions. If yours is already purged / unknown, then might as well fix it. I was suggesting you didn't need to mess with it just to pull the motor if the system was good, which it obviously isn't.

thesameguy · **Joined:** Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:24 pm **Posts:** 652

Got the motor out today, and now I am left with a bunch of questions. I had hoped to find clear evidence of the source of the leak, but no such luck. The dye I'd added shows nowhere, and there is so much oil in so many places a leak path isn't apparent. The only thing I can really suspect is the head gasket.

I took this video … maybe there's something in it I've overlooked:

https://youtu.be/016u1t8CYoM

TKB4 · **Posted:** Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:57 pm

Bad deal not to find obvious source of leak after all that work, I feel for you been there couple of times now but it is better than finding terrible news like an obviously cracked block in an area that would be difficult or impossible to repair. Hope its not the head itself. At least if you do not find it you could thoroughly clean the whole engine while out and you could put on engine stand and with a harness etc you could run it on the stand and observe but this would be a big headache though maybe not as much of a headache as reinstalling it and then finding the leak! Hard to believe with a huge leak the dye didn't show anything.

On another note , where did you end up attaching to firewall side of engine to pull it ?

Just another general idea. Its possible using a temporary electric oil pump might pressurize at least part of the system enough to see evidence of a big leak and you could even hook up starter and turn engine over some to aide in this . The glow plugs and or injectors could also be pulled to lessen work on the starter if nothing shows initially from head gasket.

Well, here I go... pulling the motor.

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