It is currently Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:55 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 81 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: EPA Shutting down Diesel Turners and issuing hefty fines
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 11:53 am 
Offline
LOST Member

Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:24 pm
Posts: 334
That's a good point - I remember reading that somewhere as well. (I also remember panicking over how my 20 year old GM diesel would handle the ULSD! It didn't care... I sold it five years ago with 350k on it!)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: EPA Shutting down Diesel Turners and issuing hefty fines
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 7:24 pm 
Offline
LOST Junkie

Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2015 2:11 pm
Posts: 738
Location: markham, ontario
thesameguy wrote:
That's a good point - I remember reading that somewhere as well. (I also remember panicking over how my 20 year old GM diesel would handle the ULSD! It didn't care... I sold it five years ago with 350k on it!)


i am approaching 500k with my 2004 jetta tdi (1.9bew) all original including exhaust valves and original clutch maybe i should visit VW dealer see if they can tune it up for another half a million lol.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: EPA Shutting down Diesel Turners and issuing hefty fines
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:23 pm 
Offline
Lifetime Member
Lifetime Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:34 pm
Posts: 2507
Location: America
Looks like Commiefornia got GDE for $50K.

Image

_________________
2006 LTD Bright Silver loaded with all the needed mods, CCV intact.
Proudly supporting CRD vendors, and their development of quality parts and accessories.
Equipped with HDS thermostat, plenty of heat, faster warm-ups, increased fuel mileage.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: EPA Shutting down Diesel Turners and issuing hefty fines
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:44 pm 
Offline
LOST Addict
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:51 pm
Posts: 6209
Location: Somewhere between Heaven and Hell... But it is really hot here on Earth...
If this is the link behind the image that won't load - it happened in 2018 and was why they stopped selling in California. Likely the jerks at Carb then turned them over to the EPA for another round of pillaging.

https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/green-diesel-eng ... settlement

_________________
Proud supporting vendor of LOST Jeeps
Provider of high quality CRD service in your driveway.
Need help? Just ask! I've taken it apart more than most.
Email (button below) is preferred to PM
Over 70 CRDs currently driving with my timing belt, rockers, or ARP Studs.
Just remember: Bad noises = REALLY bad things.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: EPA Shutting down Diesel Turners and issuing hefty fines
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:28 pm 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:36 pm
Posts: 5562
Location: Central GA
geordi wrote:
If this is the link behind the image that won't load - it happened in 2018 and was why they stopped selling in California. Likely the jerks at Carb then turned them over to the EPA for another round of pillaging.
https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/green-diesel-eng ... settlement

The EPA is an EVIL entity and needs to be reeled in!!! :x :x :x
They have way too much power.
:furious: :furious: :furious: :furious:

_________________
Supporting Vendor and Moderator of LOST
05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited :JEEPIN:
Ironman Springs/Bilstein/shocks
Yeti StgIV Hot Tune
Sasquatch BatteryTray
No FCV/EGR
Samcos/ProVent
SunCoast/Transgo
Carter Intank-pmp
2mic.Sec.Fuel Filter
Flowmaster/NO CAT
V6Airbox
GM11 bld. fan/NAPA HDclutch
IronrockArms/wwdieselMount


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: EPA Shutting down Diesel Turners and issuing hefty fines
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:39 pm 
Offline
LOST Member

Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:05 am
Posts: 272
Location: Kennewick, wa
TKB4 wrote:
The sad part is as I said before The GDE tunes are better for the environment than stock tunes and do pass emissions tests in the few I know personally about . Still makes me wonder if tunes that would pass emissions could still be sold if they didn't delete EGR s etc. Maybe the manufacturers should contract with GDE :P

Guess its a good thing the two engines I had problems with were the ones with the GDE tunes eh !

Now what about using a non OME turbo how is it going to get tuned ? What about when the parts etc either are not made anymore and no manufacture support available? Also year of manufacture and restrictions at that time may have something to do with it.
Also it would be pretty hard to stop the ORM.


Planned obsolescence ... it’s the ugly truth, every vehicle has to break to keep the industry going


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: EPA Shutting down Diesel Turners and issuing hefty fines
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:37 am 
Offline
LOST Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 03, 2010 12:20 am
Posts: 130
Location: Colorado & NY (Rochester)
WWDiesel wrote:
geordi wrote:
If this is the link behind the image that won't load - it happened in 2018 and was why they stopped selling in California. Likely the jerks at Carb then turned them over to the EPA for another round of pillaging.
https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/green-diesel-eng ... settlement

The EPA is an EVIL entity and needs to be reeled in!!! :x :x :x
They have way too much power.
:furious: :furious: :furious: :furious:


Many years ago when I lived in CA, CARB was flexing it's new muscles and was overly diligent in making all comply no matter how much you improved emissions. Case in point was a guy who made modifications to his Corvette and achieved dramatic increases in power and greatly reduced emissions as well, and was not able to get them to make exceptions. Went to court to plead his case, but lost... rules is rules they said. He wasn't allowed to even change the air cleaner can... he wanted a chrome one! Local news papers ran his story but to no avail.

_________________
Marty

'05 CRD, GDE tune(s), JBA stuff, OME, Weeks Stage I & II, "Provent"(custom) +++


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: EPA Shutting down Diesel Turners and issuing hefty fines
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:39 am 
Offline
LOST Junkie

Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:29 pm
Posts: 949
ROKTAXI wrote:
WWDiesel wrote:
geordi wrote:
If this is the link behind the image that won't load - it happened in 2018 and was why they stopped selling in California. Likely the jerks at Carb then turned them over to the EPA for another round of pillaging.
https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/green-diesel-eng ... settlement

The EPA is an EVIL entity and needs to be reeled in!!! :x :x :x
They have way too much power.
:furious: :furious: :furious: :furious:


Many years ago when I lived in CA, CARB was flexing it's new muscles and was overly diligent in making all comply no matter how much you improved emissions. Case in point was a guy who made modifications to his Corvette and achieved dramatic increases in power and greatly reduced emissions as well, and was not able to get them to make exceptions. Went to court to plead his case, but lost... rules is rules they said. He wasn't allowed to even change the air cleaner can... he wanted a chrome one! Local news papers ran his story but to no avail.



STUPID CARB AND THE E.P.A!!! Just another example of government agencies KILLING innovation. :grim: :twisted:

Anyone who thinks Kalifornia is not a socialist state simply has their heads in the sand. :roll:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: EPA Shutting down Diesel Turners and issuing hefty fines
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:05 am 
Offline
LOST Addict
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2016 9:12 pm
Posts: 2506
Location: Oregon Coast Dairy Country. Land of stumps, dumps, and "Liquid Pumps"
I noticed that nowhere in that article was there any indication that the GDE tuned engine was a gross polluter, or even that it didn't pass.

I'd put money that the vehicle owner/driver either asked about it, or left the tuning device out where they saw it.

_________________
'06 Lbrty Sprt CRD 150K

Sasquatch
DSS Turbo
CAT-elimntr
Weeks Stg1&2 EGRfix
PV-200
BLING
vent gauges

IDParts
head
cams
rockers
Timing set
ARP studs
eTn1 GX2123 5v GPs

YETI Custom Tune
Flowmaster 8325508
Carter P76611M
GM 12611872
Hayden 2986
GM 15976889
PATC Custom Billet
2010 Ram Hemi Trans
Sonnax 44957
Transgo kit
Cooper 51770


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: EPA Shutting down Diesel Turners and issuing hefty fines
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:27 am 
Offline
LOST Member

Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:05 am
Posts: 272
Location: Kennewick, wa
It would be simply a matter of the tune changing stock parameters and you are violating the rules


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: EPA Shutting down Diesel Turners and issuing hefty fines
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:29 am 
Offline
LOST Member

Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:05 am
Posts: 272
Location: Kennewick, wa
Ever since my guy trump cut the EPA’s funding they have doubled down on enforcement and raised the penalty’s, hopefully this next round he is able to shut em down for good


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: EPA Shutting down Diesel Turners and issuing hefty fines
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:51 am 
Offline
LOST Member

Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:24 pm
Posts: 334
You guys do know that so-called Kalifornia has pretty easy to follow rules for end-users modifying their car, and for manufacturers to get their aftermarket products certified, right? There is no "killing of innovation." I have multiple cars with totally wrong engines. I go to the community college, give them $8.25, and they put a sticker on it saying it's ok. A friend sells kits to put Audi 1.8t engines in Vanagons - he went through the process, got the EO number. Yes, there are rules to follow, but they are pretty sensible rules.

Image

I for one like my socialist roads and my socialist fire department, but maybe ya'll can afford your own pavers & fire trucks?

Edit: I just wanna be clear that I am NOT a fan of big government, and strongly believe in self-reliance, but but I also like facts. And really opposed to false pretense.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: EPA Shutting down Diesel Turners and issuing hefty fines
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:02 pm 
Offline
LOST Addict

Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:43 am
Posts: 4842
Location: Green Cove Springs FL
GordnadoCRD wrote:
I noticed that nowhere in that article was there any indication that the GDE tuned engine was a gross polluter, or even that it didn't pass.

I'd put money that the vehicle owner/driver either asked about it, or left the tuning device out where they saw it.

I agree.
The test centers do not have the ability to read the tune files. Some other detail would've had to clue them in.
Or maybe someone at CARB did a google search for "diesel tuners" and did a little investigative research.

thesameguy wrote:
You guys do know that so-called Kalifornia has pretty easy to follow rules for end-users modifying their car, and for manufacturers to get their aftermarket products certified, right? There is no "killing of innovation." I have multiple cars with totally wrong engines. I go to the community college, give them $8.25, and they put a sticker on it saying it's ok. A friend sells kits to put Audi 1.8t engines in Vanagons - he went through the process, got the EO number. Yes, there are rules to follow, but they are pretty sensible rules.

I for one like my socialist roads and my socialist fire department, but maybe ya'll can afford your own pavers & fire trucks?

Edit: I just wanna be clear that I am NOT a fan of big government, and strongly believe in self-reliance, but but I also like facts. And really opposed to false pretense.

All very well put.
It just takes a little extra effort to make it happen.
If a related business believes in their product and want to be able to sell in CA, it can be done.

I think the killer for GDE in this instance would be their electronic deletion of the EGR.
Any statement about disabling or reducing EGR function would be a no-go for both CA and the EPA.
So GDE would have to create a performance tune that maintained all emissions control functions while still being able to pass the emissions test.

So, what about the DIY tunes for the CRD?
Those are exchanged freely among some guys on the internet.
There is no business for CARB/EPA to file a lawsuit against.
There is no way to prove that a custom tune is loaded.
Will a DIY tune pass an emissions test? Probably not.
So you pass your CA emissions test today with a stock tune, then load your DIY tune tomorrow.
And you're good for another year to two before you have to switch back. :twisted:

_________________
Provent, intake elbow, and EGR delete. 5 volt bosch glow plugs
Yeti stage 4 ECU tune. Straight pipe exhaust. DIY intercooler hoses.
Aftermarket intercooler
Fixed Flex Fan and modified factory 190F thermostat
Replaced cylinder head (cracked) at 160,000 miles + ARP studs
2.5 inch lift, JBA upper arms, 235-85-16 tires.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: EPA Shutting down Diesel Turners and issuing hefty fines
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:16 pm 
Offline
LOST Addict
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:21 pm
Posts: 2132
Location: Utah
thesameguy wrote:
You guys do know that so-called Kalifornia has pretty easy to follow rules for end-users modifying their car, and for manufacturers to get their aftermarket products certified, right? There is no "killing of innovation." I have multiple cars with totally wrong engines. I go to the community college, give them $8.25, and they put a sticker on it saying it's ok. A friend sells kits to put Audi 1.8t engines in Vanagons - he went through the process, got the EO number. Yes, there are rules to follow, but they are pretty sensible rules.

Image

I for one like my socialist roads and my socialist fire department, but maybe ya'll can afford your own pavers & fire trucks?

Edit: I just wanna be clear that I am NOT a fan of big government, and strongly believe in self-reliance, but but I also like facts. And really opposed to false pretense.


This, 100%. There are a few companies making twin turbo and supercharger kits for the new 5.0 F150 that are CARB compliant. They are making over 700 hp crank from bolt on kits and are 50 state legal.

Just don't be an ( * ) and you will be fine.

_________________
2006 CRD - GTB2056 turbo by Dieselguy86, Eco Trans Tune, Lift Pump, Week's, HDS Tstat, Racor Filter, ARP's, OME 790's+Top Plate, JBA 2.5", JBA UCA, Moab's+265/75R16, ARB Bull Bar, 4.10's, TrueTracs


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: EPA Shutting down Diesel Turners and issuing hefty fines
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:49 am 
Offline
LOST Member

Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2015 12:31 pm
Posts: 382
Location: North America
I just endeavored to "assist" a US-resident member with one of these shipping issues.
Regarding shipping to a Mexican address, to paraphrase GDE: "The 'Destination Vehicle' needs to have a VIN that is registered outside of the US in order to ship any tune products".

Is what it is.

Separately, CRD owners (here) are generating an entertaining narrative re air quality vs. bureaucracy.
Kudos to all for keeping it civil while raking technically-relevant gravel. :ROTFL:

_________________
'15: bought '05 w/138k.
'16: HG/Rockers/ARPs/Thermo/H20pump/TbeltKit/ Seals/ Mounts/Kennedy fuel pump.
'17: bought manual Gas donor for its' ARB F/R Airlockers, OME 2.5" lift (gas-rated), JBA UCAs, ARB bumper.
'19: Trans w/Suncoast/Transgo/HDdiscs, new OME CRD-rated lift, electric tri-fan setup, BlackMagics/Centric Premiums, Airbags.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: EPA Shutting down Diesel Turners and issuing hefty fines
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 2:49 am 
Offline
LOST Addict
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2016 9:12 pm
Posts: 2506
Location: Oregon Coast Dairy Country. Land of stumps, dumps, and "Liquid Pumps"
Quote:
Separately, CRD owners (here) are generating an entertaining narrative re air quality vs. bureaucracy.
Kudos to all for keeping it civil while raking technically-relevant gravel.


Especially considering how lightly the triggers are set on both sides.

Sensitivity aside, It does concern me that so much of this gets shared in a 50-50 (ish) open forum.
It's not the tolerant ones I worry about, it's the ones that feel "rollin coal" on public roads is OK, as well as the ones that feel that if one does not agree with them, they should be legislated into submission, or be removed from society. (ALL power to the Government & EPA.)

One would hope they would just keep each other occupied (equal and opposing forces and all that), but truth is, the current power and resources of the EPA are already far beyond the entire diesel market, and if they ever feel that equation is in jeopardy, and they can't get more from the teat.GOV, they raise fines and find new places to dig. The whole thing, no matter who wins, or is involved, gets hosted 100% by the taxpayer. :dizzy:

_________________
'06 Lbrty Sprt CRD 150K

Sasquatch
DSS Turbo
CAT-elimntr
Weeks Stg1&2 EGRfix
PV-200
BLING
vent gauges

IDParts
head
cams
rockers
Timing set
ARP studs
eTn1 GX2123 5v GPs

YETI Custom Tune
Flowmaster 8325508
Carter P76611M
GM 12611872
Hayden 2986
GM 15976889
PATC Custom Billet
2010 Ram Hemi Trans
Sonnax 44957
Transgo kit
Cooper 51770


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: EPA Shutting down Diesel Turners and issuing hefty fines
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:57 am 
Offline
LOST Member

Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:24 pm
Posts: 334
GordnadoCRD wrote:
It's not the tolerant ones I worry about, it's the ones that feel "rollin coal" on public roads is OK, as well as the ones that feel that if one does not agree with them, they should be legislated into submission, or be removed from society. (ALL power to the Government & EPA.)


People are oddly hard-wired to pursue things to excess, and when you get excess in one direction you magically get excess in the other.

If folks could simply be considerate, responsible and enjoy moderation a bit more rather than consistently trying to push extremes, probably there would need to be a lot less rules and the taxes that pay for them. I'm somehow sure Carlin had something to say about this, but I can't think of what it was.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: EPA Shutting down Diesel Turners and issuing hefty fines
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:21 pm 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:36 pm
Posts: 5562
Location: Central GA
GordnadoCRD wrote:
Quote:
Separately, CRD owners (here) are generating an entertaining narrative re air quality vs. bureaucracy.
Kudos to all for keeping it civil while raking technically-relevant gravel.

Especially considering how lightly the triggers are set on both sides.
Sensitivity aside, It does concern me that so much of this gets shared in a 50-50 (ish) open forum.
It's not the tolerant ones I worry about, it's the ones that feel "rollin coal" on public roads is OK, as well as the ones that feel that if one does not agree with them, they should be legislated into submission, or be removed from society. (ALL power to the Government & EPA.)
One would hope they would just keep each other occupied (equal and opposing forces and all that), but truth is, the current power and resources of the EPA are already far beyond the entire diesel market, and if they ever feel that equation is in jeopardy, and they can't get more from the teat.GOV, they raise fines and find new places to dig. The whole thing, no matter who wins, or is involved, gets hosted 100% by the taxpayer. :dizzy:

Very true, and at the end of the day no matter which way the wind blows, we the taxpayer ends up on the loosing end of the stick so to speak. :( :(
In the end, if the government gets involved in anything, logical thinking and common sense is thrown out the window.... :banghead: :cry:

_________________
Supporting Vendor and Moderator of LOST
05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited :JEEPIN:
Ironman Springs/Bilstein/shocks
Yeti StgIV Hot Tune
Sasquatch BatteryTray
No FCV/EGR
Samcos/ProVent
SunCoast/Transgo
Carter Intank-pmp
2mic.Sec.Fuel Filter
Flowmaster/NO CAT
V6Airbox
GM11 bld. fan/NAPA HDclutch
IronrockArms/wwdieselMount


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: EPA Shutting down Diesel Turners and issuing hefty fines
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:21 pm 
Offline
LOST Addict
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:51 pm
Posts: 6209
Location: Somewhere between Heaven and Hell... But it is really hot here on Earth...
That vin verification must be part of the investigation... I'd leave GDE alone for a while, sounds like they are not going to be able to assist us any further for a good long time if ever again. :(

Meanwhile in other Kaliforniastan news... I just had a problem with a piece of lawn equipment. My string trimmer (Ryobi 4 cycle powerhead with removable attachments) decided it didn't want to work functionally anymore. I have been somewhat religious about draining the tank on it and running it dry every time I am done with it, but after less than 2 years it refuses to run above an idle. Just bogs out and dies. Hmm, I know a thing or three about engines, so this seems like a fuel mix issue. Time to adjust the carb!

There's no adjustment screws. WTF?

Turns out, it is a popular problem to have with these, and lo and behold... The carb is non adjustable! Not because of Ryobi being cheap (which I accept that yes, they are)... But because of CARB mandating that the fuel mix has to be set excessively lean from the factory (bad for a gas engine) so that they "make less emissions" but by running lean all the time they run hot, burn the rings and piston.... And have premature engine compression loss which can make them fail out when you squeeze the throttle, b/c it leans them out even more!

So I just had to replace it with another brand that sells to commercial users. The unit I got is easily more powerful than the one it replaced, and it actually has adjustable jets! They don't even need a magic tool (called a pac-man screwdriver), they use a standard tool. What a miracle of modern technology, an adjustable engine so you SAVE RESOURCES by not constantly needing to throw away a perfectly good condition tool every year! What a concept!

The sales guy did say that they "weren't supposed to allow people to adjust them b/c of emissions" but his expression was the same as mine - this is stupid. I mean really, even in a commercial use setting, the thing's tank is only 1/10 of a gallon and it can run for about an hour on that fuel. So MAYBE a half-gallon per day, and that would be running continuously? Honestly, the amount of fuel that these things will use is maybe 100 gallons a year, and that's being VERY generous. The emissions from this are just not a consideration. It's not even enough to be called a "rounding error" in the total profile of all emissions in this country, BEFORE you talk about wildfires.

I'm going to screw around with the Ryobi some more, see if I can figure out what makes it not want to work... But likely it will be getting sold "for parts" b/c of the poor design choices they made. At least this other one seems to have been built better. Hope it lives up to the name.

_________________
Proud supporting vendor of LOST Jeeps
Provider of high quality CRD service in your driveway.
Need help? Just ask! I've taken it apart more than most.
Email (button below) is preferred to PM
Over 70 CRDs currently driving with my timing belt, rockers, or ARP Studs.
Just remember: Bad noises = REALLY bad things.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: EPA Shutting down Diesel Turners and issuing hefty fines
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:47 pm 
Offline
LOST Addict

Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:33 pm
Posts: 1070
Location: Jackson,TN
Jim I realize this wasn't your problem but for all my small engines I started using non ethanol fuel with stabilizer added and running the fuel out too. In the last 3 years on the really small engines like weed eaters and chain saws I went to aviation fuel 100 low lead. Its expensive but its worth it.

Just a thought, changing octane or changing concentration of the fuel with an unusual additive like diesel etc may in effect richen the mixture. That is if you cannot adjust the mixture adjust the fuel.

_________________
05 Blu LIM, OME GDE Tbo, wk II 245/75/17, KC Lights, bull bar, 195K H TC
05 Blu Lim, Dayton, GDE HT, 255/75/18 , 210K , H TC
06 Bla Lim, GDE Eco, Destination AT 245/75/17, 151K, H TC
06 D Khaki Lim 126K wkII Eur TC
05 D khaki Lim 145k refurbishing
All CRDS: Fumoto, Lift , Fan Shroud mod, fuel head Gen II, SAMCOS,self TB, 2 Mic filt, Hayden


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 81 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group. Color scheme by ColorizeIt!
Logo by pixeldecals.com