2006 CRD Normal Operating Temp?

thesameguy · **Joined:** Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:24 pm **Posts:** 652

RDBUL wrote:

There are in fact A LOT of commercial diesel engines that utilize the iron block/aluminum head architecture. If we're talking about on-highway applications sold in North America only...

Yeah, I think until you get into heavy duty (D13, etc.) most everyone has gone alloy. All the medium duty stuff save Cummins is alloy on iron.

thesameguy · **Joined:** Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:24 pm **Posts:** 652

PZKW108 wrote:

You would be surprise to see how many of the CRD don't use HOAT coolant !

Nothing surprises me anymore... the weird stuff you find in cars is mind boggling. That's why I'm always dubious of claims about "you need this aftermarket part." Way too much stuff can be pinned squarely on dumb owners.

But, the factory does sometimes screw up, so if it's been 15 years since the original, and the factory offers a redesign, I'm certainly willing to consider it.

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK · **Joined:** Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:29 pm **Posts:** 1167

RDBUL wrote:

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:

NO commercial diesel engine I know of runs iron block/aluminum head architecture, and that is why the R428 and all other diesel engines like it are relegated to a consumer grade status.

There are in fact A LOT of commercial diesel engines that utilize the iron block/aluminum head architecture. If we're talking about on-highway applications sold in North America only...

2001 to present - 6.6L Duramax used in the Chevy/GMC 2500 through 5500 truck applications.
2011 to present - 6.7L Powerstroke used in F-250 through F-750 truck applications.
2002 to present - Mercedes/Dodge Sprinter Vans in four different engines - 2.7L (two variations), 3.0L, 2.1L.

All of these applications utilize an iron block/aluminum head architecture, are sold in a commercial capacity with capabilities that far exceed that of our VM, and have been produced in the millions.

NONE OF THESE ENGINES YOU HAVE LISTED ARE TRUE COMMERCIAL ENGINES... THE VEHICLES ALL OF THESE ENGINES GO INTO ARE SOLD AT AUTOMOBILE DEALERSHIPS, NOT COMMERCIAL TRUCK DEALERSHIPS; THEIR CAPABILITIES NOTWITHSTANDING.

There has been a blending of the definition of "commercial vehicles" in the past few years. A lot of heavy-duty vehicles are being sold at automobile dealerships as commercial vehicles for the past few years. Redefining these vehicles as being "commerical-duty" is stretching the truth. NO WAY would I purchase any commercial duty vehicle with aluminum head/iron block architecture.

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:40 am

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:

RDBUL wrote:

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:

NO commercial diesel engine I know of runs iron block/aluminum head architecture, and that is why the R428 and all other diesel engines like it are relegated to a consumer grade status.

There are in fact A LOT of commercial diesel engines that utilize the iron block/aluminum head architecture. If we're talking about on-highway applications sold in North America only...

2001 to present - 6.6L Duramax used in the Chevy/GMC 2500 through 5500 truck applications.
2011 to present - 6.7L Powerstroke used in F-250 through F-750 truck applications.
2002 to present - Mercedes/Dodge Sprinter Vans in four different engines - 2.7L (two variations), 3.0L, 2.1L.

All of these applications utilize an iron block/aluminum head architecture, are sold in a commercial capacity with capabilities that far exceed that of our VM, and have been produced in the millions.

NONE OF THESE ENGINES YOU HAVE LISTED ARE TRUE COMMERCIAL ENGINES...
According to the manufacturers as well as the customers, the above statement is FALSE, your opinion notwithstanding.

THE VEHICLES ALL OF THESE ENGINES GO INTO ARE SOLD AT AUTOMOBILE DEALERSHIPS, NOT COMMERCIAL TRUCK DEALERSHIPS; THEIR CAPABILITIES NOTWITHSTANDING.
Again, the above statement is false. These engines are sold by the thousands in Cab & Chassis truck format, which is, by definition, commercial, regardless of whether it ends up as a dump truck, a tow truck or a motorhome, and they are sold at nearly every commercial vehicle dealership nationwide, that sells light and medium duty commercial trucks, as well as commercial engines for commercial wood grinders/shredders, commercial welding units, commercial air compressors, and commercial mowers, just to list a few.
It sounds as if you are trying to define light and medium duty commercial vehicles in terms of Heavy Duty OTR tractors, which takes us into the realm of imagination / absurdity, which would certainly surprise me as you are sensible and that makes no sense.

There has been a blending of the definition of "commercial vehicles" in the past few years. This is opinion, but could be seen as fact in some, perhaps many, marketing regions. However,
Not a blending, Jeff, a complete change, as the manufacturers have changed their products. "These are not your Daddy's ______" has long been used as sales slogans for both commercial and privately owned vehicles. That statement, regardless of intent, doesn't necessarily mean it's a good thing.

A lot of heavy-duty vehicles are being sold at automobile dealerships as commercial vehicles for the past few years.
Now we've gotten somewhere. This is definitely true in many many cases, but does not extend to actual Heavy Duty OTR tractors.
Redefining these vehicles as being "commerical-duty" is stretching the truth.
Opinion, as it is not a RE-definition, it is THE definition, and the truth.
NO WAY would I purchase any commercial duty vehicle with aluminum head/iron block architecture.
Now we've TRULY gotten somewhere. A statement of what you believe, and what you would/wouldn't do. Regardless of the FACT that commercial duty vehicles/machines with aluminum head/iron block architecture exist, You would not buy one. THAT is the core of this issue, and cannot help but be believed by anyone rational. Well Done.

thesameguy · **Joined:** Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:24 pm **Posts:** 652

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:

There has been a blending of the definition of "commercial vehicles" in the past few years. A lot of heavy-duty vehicles are being sold at automobile dealerships as commercial vehicles for the past few years. Redefining these vehicles as being "commerical-duty" is stretching the truth. NO WAY would I purchase any commercial duty vehicle with aluminum head/iron block architecture.

That's kind of a silly thing to say. Every major manufacturer produces a medium duty chassis powered by the exact same engine that's in their light duty truck. The Ford F5x and Chevy B and P chassis are exactly that, underpinning an enormous number of busses, delivery vans, motorhomes, and more. Yes, back in the old days these vehicles were powered by iron block/iron head motors, but everything was. The point is that they were powered by the same 5-7l V8s you'd get in a pickup.

That's still true today. Medium duty trucks are powered by the same engines you find in pickups. The difference is that today those engines have alloy heads, because virtually everything has alloy heads. Alloy heads offer lighter weight, better head management, lower cost to net superior flow, and are durable enough.

The only place you find iron head on iron block anymore are legitimate heavy duty trucks - Volvo VNL and whatnot. You're probably not going to find a commercial delivery van with a 13l motor, so whatever van you get - Ford, GM, Mercedes - you're going to have an alloy head.

flash7210 · **Posted:** Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:25 pm

thesameguy wrote:

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:

There has been a blending of the definition of "commercial vehicles" in the past few years. A lot of heavy-duty vehicles are being sold at automobile dealerships as commercial vehicles for the past few years. Redefining these vehicles as being "commerical-duty" is stretching the truth. NO WAY would I purchase any commercial duty vehicle with aluminum head/iron block architecture.

That's kind of a silly thing to say. Every major manufacturer produces a medium duty chassis powered by the exact same engine that's in their light duty truck. The Ford F5x and Chevy B and P chassis are exactly that, underpinning an enormous number of busses, delivery vans, motorhomes, and more. Yes, back in the old days these vehicles were powered by iron block/iron head motors, but everything was. The point is that they were powered by the same 5-7l V8s you'd get in a pickup.

That's still true today. Medium duty trucks are powered by the same engines you find in pickups. The difference is that today those engines have alloy heads, because virtually everything has alloy heads. Alloy heads offer lighter weight, better head management, lower cost to net superior flow, and are durable enough.

The only place you find iron head on iron block anymore are legitimate heavy duty trucks - Volvo VNL and whatnot. You're probably not going to find a commercial delivery van with a 13l motor, so whatever van you get - Ford, GM, Mercedes - you're going to have an alloy head.

I think what he meant to say is that-- if it isn't a CAT, Cummins, or Detroit, it's a POS

thesameguy · **Joined:** Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:24 pm **Posts:** 652

I guess, but I think there are a lot of Sprinter owners that would disagree!

I've logged a lot of miles on a Sprinter diesel and loved every minute. If only the Jeep drove as well!

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK · **Joined:** Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:29 pm **Posts:** 1167

ALRIGHT, GENTLEMEN; ENOUGH!!

We are discussing semantics here... TRUE commercial engines are iron block/iron head architecture where the cams are driven by gears... end of story.

I am a Class 1 driver and I never driven a class 1 vehicle with iron block/aluminum head architecture because I know what the long-term prospects for that engine will be... so does V.M. Motori, for that matter. Their own marine version of the 428 is iron block/iron head and gear driven cams.... NOBODY wants an engine that will malfunction 200 miles offshore.

If indeed the definition of commercial duty has changed, then it is a sad day for all of us as the ideology of "planned obsolescence" has won out due to corporate greed with the willing participation of the unions. AND, all of us are at least partially to blame for this as we have not walked away from products that have employed planned obsolescence.

My offer still stands; I wish to develop an iron head for the R428 and the A428. How do we get the ball rolling here? Does anyone know a foundry that specializes in engine blocks and heads who can help us develop one?

PZKW108 · **Joined:** Sun Apr 06, 2014 5:23 pm **Posts:** 461

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:

ALRIGHT, GENTLEMEN; ENOUGH!!

We are discussing semantics here... TRUE commercial engines are iron block/iron head architecture where the cams are driven by gears... end of story.

I am a Class 1 driver and I never driven a class 1 vehicle with iron block/aluminum head architecture because I know what the long-term prospects for that engine will be... so does V.M. Motori, for that matter. Their own marine version of the 428 is iron block/iron head and gear driven cams.... NOBODY wants an engine that will malfunction 200 miles offshore.

If indeed the definition of commercial duty has changed, then it is a sad day for all of us as the ideology of "planned obsolescence" has won out due to corporate greed with the willing participation of the unions. AND, all of us are at least partially to blame for this as we have not walked away from products that have employed planned obsolescence.

My offer still stands; I wish to develop an iron head for the R428 and the A428. How do we get the ball rolling here? Does anyone know a foundry that specializes in engine blocks and heads who can help us develop one?

There is actually a "class" of engine between the consumer and "real" heavy duty commercial engine.

Not sure what would be the real name, maybe light duty commercial

Regular customer engine beef up and tune for commercial application. Mostly use in cab and chassis or Curbmaster like vehicule.

I've worked on some using the 6.7 cummins , I can tell they have different crank dampener and they are also tune down for a different warranty.
I don't know about Duramax or powerstroke but I guess they do something similar !

thesameguy · **Joined:** Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:24 pm **Posts:** 652

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truck_classification

Light Duty (compact "1/4 ton" pickups through 1-ton pickups)
Medium Duty (multiton pickups through things like Kodiak/Topkick)
Heavy Duty (C7500s through full tractor/trailer)

These are all "commercial trucks" as defined by the FWHA for many, many years. Many decades.

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:23 am

If I might make a suggestion, putting aside my love for things well made for the R428, I suggest, Jeff, that you pursue the market for the A428 first.
Reasoning
A428 is still in production with new units delivered to market every day.
R428 is out of production with low market size, and "potential customer" units going to recycling smelters every day.

Not trying to tell you what to do, I just want you to succeed, and it's the larger market size that will win.
But, you already knew that, so carry on.

PZKW108 · **Joined:** Sun Apr 06, 2014 5:23 pm **Posts:** 461

GordnadoCRD wrote:

If I might make a suggestion, putting aside my love for things well made for the R428, I suggest, Jeff, that you pursue the market for the A428 first.
Reasoning
A428 is still in production with new units delivered to market every day.
R428 is out of production with low market size, and "potential customer" units going to recycling smelters every day.

Not trying to tell you what to do, I just want you to succeed, and it's the larger market size that will win.
But, you already knew that, so carry on.

Gord

Looks like your PM was posted in this tread ??????

Diesel Dan · **Posted:** Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:33 am

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:

Your comments regarding factory errors assembling engines are highly unlikely... this engine had already been manufactured for years in both 2.5L and 2.8L displacements before we got them over here. Most mistakes are made in the initial production runs.

No, not even close.
Have worked at a Tier1 parts supplier for many years and still associated with automotive manufacturing. There are many, many TSBs released mid-term of products. The amount to torque monitoring involved in auto manufacturers is amazing, volumes of data recorded and stored. Now to what extent VM monitored their TTY equipment...….we will never know.

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK · **Joined:** Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:29 pm **Posts:** 1167

Diesel Dan wrote:

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:

Your comments regarding factory errors assembling engines are highly unlikely... this engine had already been manufactured for years in both 2.5L and 2.8L displacements before we got them over here. Most mistakes are made in the initial production runs.

No, not even close.
Have worked at a Tier1 parts supplier for many years and still associated with automotive manufacturing. There are many, many TSBs released mid-term of products. The amount to torque monitoring involved in auto manufacturers is amazing, volumes of data recorded and stored. Now to what extent VM monitored their TTY equipment...….we will never know.

I still think the preponderance of mistakes are made in the beginning of production runs of any manufactured item. I have experienced it myself in producing the Model 001. TSBs released in the middle of production runs can often be because the design was changed in some way in the middle of that run, and the change has some problems.

Good point, though; thanks.

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK · **Joined:** Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:29 pm **Posts:** 1167

GordnadoCRD wrote:

If I might make a suggestion, putting aside my love for things well made for the R428, I suggest, Jeff, that you pursue the market for the A428 first.
Reasoning
A428 is still in production with new units delivered to market every day.
R428 is out of production with low market size, and "potential customer" units going to recycling smelters every day.

Not trying to tell you what to do, I just want you to succeed, and it's the larger market size that will win.
But, you already knew that, so carry on.

I absolutely take no offence in your post, GordnadoCRD; in fact I agree with you. For the record, I predict that the Baby Duramax engine, (AKA the V.M. Motori A428), will have many of the same problems the Liberty CRD engine has had, and perhaps even more. The engine thermostat assembly in the Baby Duramax is also non-serviceable, and for the North American market also has that terrible 176 degree valve in it to meet the NOx emission standards set out by your virtue signalling Environmental Protection Agency.

I have purchased a 2017 Colorado Diesel and got 2 copies of the factory service manual as part of the deal to conduct research into an HDS Model 002... Time and money to accomplish this is not available yet.

BD Williamson · **Posted:** Fri Nov 22, 2019 7:42 pm

So, if I am reading this correctly, my 06 Liberty that the gauge normally runs at the quarter mark has a faulty stat. Pulling a long grade it will move up, but never above the 12 o'clock position, and will go down to the quarter mark on flat highway. Running off road it will run higher, but again, goes to quarter mark on the flats. I was thinking that I needed a new clutch fan, but if what I'm reading is correct, I need to do something about the stat, I have about 150,000+ on the vehicle and I live in Idaho where summers can get hot and winters cold, like now. Bruce

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Sat Nov 23, 2019 4:09 am

BD Williamson wrote:

So, if I am reading this correctly, my 06 Liberty that the gauge normally runs at the quarter mark has a faulty stat. Pulling a long grade it will move up, but never above the 12 o'clock position, and will go down to the quarter mark on flat highway. Running off road it will run higher, but again, goes to quarter mark on the flats. I was thinking that I needed a new clutch fan, but if what I'm reading is correct, I need to do something about the stat, I have about 150,000+ on the vehicle and I live in Idaho where summers can get hot and winters cold, like now. Bruce

If it's a CRD you've Nailed it.
Please don't punish your Libby and yourself by going cheap.

If you plan on keeping your CRD long term, and can afford the HDS-001 thermostat, there is no superior solution. They are, however, currently quite backlogged, if I have understood things correctly. Check with Jeff, (TURBO DIESEL FREAK) for details on their current waiting list, and getting yourself on it if you can go that route.

The OEM stat available from Sasquatch and IDParts is the only other one I'd recommend, but it still has all the disadvantages of the original Low-temp product.
https://shop.sasquatchparts.com/products/thermostat-jeep-liberty-crd-mopar-5142601aa/
https://www.idparts.com/thermostat-oem-liberty-crd-p-2719.html

Diesel Dan · **Posted:** Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:42 am

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:

I still think the preponderance of mistakes are made in the beginning of production runs of any manufactured item. I have experienced it myself in producing the Model 001. TSBs released in the middle of production runs can often be because the design was changed in some way in the middle of that run, and the change has some problems.

Good point, though; thanks.

What you are dealing with is one off custom parts, nothing wrong with that just a different animal.
The one plant I worked at made 25,000 finished parts per day. That was bringing in raw stock, cold forging, hot forging, heat treat, phos-coating, milling, lathe, grinding, broaching, thread/spline rolling, induction hardening etc. Quality spills happen quite often but most are caught in house before being shipped.

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK · **Joined:** Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:29 pm **Posts:** 1167

Diesel Dan wrote:

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:

I still think the preponderance of mistakes are made in the beginning of production runs of any manufactured item. I have experienced it myself in producing the Model 001. TSBs released in the middle of production runs can often be because the design was changed in some way in the middle of that run, and the change has some problems.

Good point, though; thanks.

What you are dealing with is one off custom parts, nothing wrong with that just a different animal.
The one plant I worked at made 25,000 finished parts per day. That was bringing in raw stock, cold forging, hot forging, heat treat, phos-coating, milling, lathe, grinding, broaching, thread/spline rolling, induction hardening etc. Quality spills happen quite often but most are caught in house before being shipped.

O.K.... Fair call.

I replied to your private message; please respond to that.

I will re-state for the record that I am not allowed to sell through this forum.

acftmech · **Joined:** Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:24 am **Posts:** 1

Hey all- my first post in LostJeeps- when we bought our 2005 Liberty CRD we had the same temp issue. It was running cold and apparently, the previous owner didn't bother to address it. I bought an OE Mopar from Sasquatch and now it is exactly where it should be running and I am really happy with it. Still working out the other kinks the previous owner didn't address- like the dreaded EGR valve, but, I'm liking the CRD so far! Have fun, drive safe!

2006 CRD Normal Operating Temp?

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