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Provent / Turbo Drain Y Prototype
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=90619		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Gypsy62 [ Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Provent / Turbo Drain Y Prototype
[UPDATE:
Installed:
Image

I have a quote for $55/each for a run of 10 of the Y fittings described & pictured below. I already have a commitment for 3, but I won't green-light the run until more folks commit.
I learned my lesson last year when nobody wanted the three extra stock turbo to 3" exhaust flanges that I had fab'd, and I'm not eager to soak costs again for lack of interest. The fact that I'm not making money on these units doesn't mean that I'm eager to lose any :?
I'll gladly pack them on my dime, but each individual would be expected to cover their respective postage (originating from zip 92173).]

I'm installing a Garrett GT2560R ball-bearing turbo 'soon'.
I've already procurred all of the Oil/Water lube/cooling lines (and Turbine/Compressor adapter plates; separate turbo build thread later...).

The non-stock turbo presented a problem adapting its oil-drain to the CRD's block-port, and I couldn't locate a supplier with a usable fitting. So, while having the custom part fabricated I decided to solve two problems at once.

The resulting "Y" (in Stainless) has one hose-barb that matches the 2560's oil drain flange @ 5/8" O.D.while the other matches the Provent oil-drain's [inline check-valve] flange @ 1/2" O.D.:

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Note that the horseshoe retainer permits free rotation of the tube-flanges to adapt to the ideal hose angle:

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The OEM black-rubber block-grommet is just for display purposes (they're available retail @ ID/Mopar etc):

Image

I may not be installing the turbo, provent etc. for another few weeks so I can't yet "confirm" it's actual "operational" functionality, but I can and will confirm its basic fit into the block and 'eyeball' it's flange angles to confirm their accuracy. Also, that the retaining arm fits properly (my fab guy had the 'horseshoe' retainer idea. Brilliant simplicity).
UPDATE: test-installed the Y. Great fit:

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Ignore the protruding too-long exhaust stud I temp'd in to confirm the retainer-arm fit::

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The turbo-tap angle looks excellent:

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However, the angle from the provent-tap to the [accepted] Provent location on the strut-tower needs to be X degrees lower: observe where the stick is pointing directly up from the fitting:

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They used heavy stainless for the components:
the tubing is 1.8mm/.07" and the retainer arm is 4.8mm/.19". Robust.

My own (prototype) was $70.
I have requested a quote for a run of 10. Once a quote is in-hand, if anybody wants a set of these I'll gladly supply at my cost (+shipping).

Nothing proprietary here and anyone is welcome to copy/improve the design and fab for themselves.

[To simplify the thread, I'm going to update answers to questions here rather than post endless responses ]
- Hey, Joe! Yeah, I was thinking about the stock bracket space issue. The prototype's retainer arm is overkill-thick; thinner stock might reduce the space enough to compensate by using a washer or two as spacers up/down. Also, the single mounting-hole at the turbo end of the stock bracket could be reamed slightly to allow for any required play to bolt.
- Kinugawa sells an adapter kit for the 2560; I just confirmed that the included oil drain flange fitting has the same mount as the CRD stock turbo's drain flange:
Image
Or, you should be able to chop the upper section of the stock turbo drain tube to only a few inches long, replacing the lower section with a hose to the Y joining with the provent drain hose.
[Note the piece of black electrical tape wrapped around the neck of the stock tube; it prevents that thick stock flange from sliding down while you're wrestling with those two pugnacious mounting bolts!]

Cheers

(removed stupid "disclosure")
Keys: Turbo replacement retrofit oil drain Provent oil drain adapter
Author:  diesel_guy86 [ Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Provent / Turbo Drain Y Prototype
Just for others note, the retainer bolts to a boss that normally has the turbo support bracket bolted to it.

If someone wanted to use this for a stock setup, it would need a step put into it so that it could be bolted on the outside of the bracket, and still be able to push in the drain tube.

Using this you could then order a standard gt15-30 oil drain fitting, and use a standard drain hose. Instead of the stupid 1 piece design that is factory. For anyone who has taken their turbo out, you can appreciate how easy this would make removal.
Author:  Gypsy62 [ Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Provent / Turbo Drain Y Prototype
Where possible, I'll just edit-in "answers" to submitted questions/comments towards the end of my 'title' post. That might reduce the need for endless response posts and reduce viewer eyestrain. Maybe...
Author:  geordi [ Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Provent / Turbo Drain Y Prototype
Any potential of a nipple and flexible tubing on the factory turbo outlet so that we can completely eliminate the hard pipe?

FYI: I eliminate that effing bracket from reinstalls anyway - it isn't there for strength unless you are planning to hang the entire engine off that bracket. The turbo is more than strong enough to hold itself up.
Author:  diesel_guy86 [ Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Provent / Turbo Drain Y Prototype
Was just talking to a friend about maybe offering an option of tapping the factory turbo drain for a hose barb.
Author:  GordnadoCRD [ Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Provent / Turbo Drain Y Prototype
:POPCORN:

FOLLOWING...
Author:  geordi [ Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Provent / Turbo Drain Y Prototype
diesel_guy86 wrote:
Was just talking to a friend about maybe offering an option of tapping the factory turbo drain for a hose barb.


While you are at it.... Flexible braided high pressure high temperature tubing exists that can supply the oil pressure side too and eliminate that metal-on-metal seal and hard pipe on the block too. I did this on one of my TDIs after the hard line snapped at the turbo and very nearly cost me the motor. Now it has braided flex line to the banjo and is gloriously flexible. No more broken lines for that engine!
Author:  TKB4 [ Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Provent / Turbo Drain Y Prototype
Geordi
do you just leave the turbo support bracket off on reinstall or something else? I always have trouble getting the drain fitting back in block if it comes out when I remove valvecover with Turbo attached.
Author:  Gypsy62 [ Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Provent / Turbo Drain Y Prototype
Could folks please start a separate thread dedicated to "Turbo Retrofit" or similar?

I opened this thread for the very specific purpose of fielding potential interest in these custom oil-drain "Y" fittings.
Time is of the essence, and if the interest isn't there I'm not going to invest any more time & energy into providing them.

Thanks.
Author:  GordnadoCRD [ Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Provent / Turbo Drain Y Prototype
There is interest here, but as I am sure you know, Time accrues much faster than interest (or cash) around here.
Author:  Gypsy62 [ Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Provent / Turbo Drain Y Prototype
"Time is of the essence" because I'm relocating in January = adios Mexicano fab shop.

Yeah, I know; as budgets go this fitting isn't quite as necessary as toilet paper. Anyway, I picked-up my Garrett 2560 today stateside and should have everything sewed-up in the next few days, including confirming the final fit & function of this fitting. Will report.
Author:  WWDiesel [ Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Provent / Turbo Drain Y Prototype
:idea: Had a thought on this! Does the drain line for the turbo enter the block BELOW the oil level?
I think not, so if you use this "Y" design drain line you will have to add a check valve on the drain for the ProVent to prevent blowback and allow the ProVent to function correctly.
ProVent recommends for it to drain into the block below the oil level in the crankcase.
Author:  Gypsy62 [ Fri Nov 15, 2019 2:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Provent / Turbo Drain Y Prototype
Thanks for heads-up, however I already specified "[inline check-valve]" in title post, right before pic.

Versus a simple check-valve, I'm not certain how advisable it would be to add a tap into the pan (below the oil line). Why introduce a 'thru-hull' with the potential for 'submerged' leakage? Better a 'freeboard' tap with a check-valve.
Author:  Sergio del Castillo [ Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Provent / Turbo Drain Y Prototype
My two cents.

About 10 years ago, I installed a ProVent 200 canister, and a friend of mine, modified the turbo drain tube (a new one that I bought from the dealer), by welding a barb tube on the top side of the metal part of the turbo drain where it enters the engine block. Almost looks like the "Y" pipe in the pictures. I got a check valve from Mann/ProVent and connected to the drain of the canister and to the barb tube using power steering flexible hoses and clamps. So far just a small leak from below the check valve hose about 5 years ago, and replacing the canister filter elements every 200 hrs of operation. Total cost about $350.00 all inclusive. I fabricated a metal bracket for the canister that sits to the left of the coolant container, behind the turbo vacuum controller.

I do not have pictures, maybe the next time that I remove the front skid-row steel pan will take some pictures.
Author:  geordi [ Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Provent / Turbo Drain Y Prototype
TKB4 wrote:
Geordi
do you just leave the turbo support bracket off on reinstall or something else? I always have trouble getting the drain fitting back in block if it comes out when I remove valvecover with Turbo attached.


Just leave it off. Makes life a lot easier, and that bracket solves nothing.
Author:  geordi [ Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Provent / Turbo Drain Y Prototype
WWDiesel wrote:
:idea: Had a thought on this! Does the drain line for the turbo enter the block BELOW the oil level?
I think not, so if you use this "Y" design drain line you will have to add a check valve on the drain for the ProVent to prevent blowback and allow the ProVent to function correctly.
ProVent recommends for it to drain into the block below the oil level in the crankcase.


I'm not sure that this is even an issue - Think of the provent as a filter. The suction side of the provent is on the "clean" side of the filter. The inlet and the drain are both on the "dirty" side of the filter, AND are both connected to the crankcase pressure. They should be at the same internal pressure, and all you are doing is providing an additional pathway for CCV air to be drawn into the provent. If anything, the only thing I would be concerned with is that the suction from the turbo could be too strong, and where the CCV would close off (that is the designed function) the drain would remain open and potentially allow the crank case to go to vacuum. There is no chance of "blowback" from the oil drain, but maybe this question about the suction is being overthought too.
Author:  GordnadoCRD [ Sat Nov 16, 2019 5:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Provent / Turbo Drain Y Prototype
WWDiesel wrote:
:idea: Had a thought on this! Does the drain line for the turbo enter the block BELOW the oil level?
I think not, so if you use this "Y" design drain line you will have to add a check valve on the drain for the ProVent to prevent blowback and allow the ProVent to function correctly.
ProVent recommends for it to drain into the block below the oil level in the crankcase.

easy enough to add that into the ProVent line when you install it.
That seems weird though, because the crankcase pressure is exactly the same whether above or below the oil level. It's just harder to move the oil into the line than air.
Not only that, but the ProVent is already under pressure from the CCV in the top, so it should be balanced.
Author:  WWDiesel [ Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Provent / Turbo Drain Y Prototype
GordnadoCRD wrote:
easy enough to add that into the ProVent line when you install it.
That seems weird though, because the crankcase pressure is exactly the same whether above or below the oil level. It's just harder to move the oil into the line than air.
Not only that, but the ProVent is already under pressure from the CCV in the top, so it should be balanced.

It makes sense to me why Mann wants it below oil level;
If the drain line for the ProVent is connected back to the engine to allow for continuous draining and does not drain into the crankcase BELOW oil level or at least have a one way check valve in the drain line.
There is nothing to stop the flow from reversing and actually pulling flow up through the drain line when the turbo suction puts the system under vacuum and any flow in this area would in essence totally bypass the ProVent coalescing and cyclonic action of the filter design and allow flow straight into the turbo suction which would defeat the whole purpose of having the ProVent filter system.

In my case I simply have a long drain tube with a small globe valve on the end of the tubing which allows draining at intervals. I have no desire to drain it back into the engine as the liquid captured contains things that I would not want going back into the oil system.

This is a very good anamation of the ProVent 200 filter system and how it functions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M34krh6uKXs

Image
Author:  Gypsy62 [ Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Provent / Turbo Drain Y Prototype
" I have no desire to drain it back into the engine as the liquid captured contains things that I would not want going back into the oil system. "

THAT is an interesting point. However, the stock setup has it routing back through the CAC, etc., so is looping through the provent comparatively worse?

Separately, I'm wondering if there's any argument for inserting a check-valve into the turbo's drain-line, too. Hopefully, the blow-by pressure is never high enough to compete with the oil-pump's pressure(!) It seems like a stupid, risky idea but maybe I'm missing something.
Author:  GordnadoCRD [ Sat Nov 16, 2019 4:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Provent / Turbo Drain Y Prototype
I think the Mann-Hummel check valve they make for this circumstance is all that would be needed. Just something to prevent the turbo return oil from going back up the provent drain.
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