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 Post subject: Glow plugs time on?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:40 pm 
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Location: Rockville, Maryland
Need help
We had two days of below 30F temperature here, and for the first time in 14 years I have been not able to start my 05CRD. Not even using the block heater for more than two hours. The battery cranks the engine until I drain it after several tries.
The only code that I get from the reader is a "low boost" that was present on and off several month ago with a lot of black smoke under heavy acceleration. moderate smoke under light acceleration, none idling.
The other item that I notice is a short time from the glow plug light in the dash board when I turn the ignition switch on, seems shorter that in summer. I let it the switch on until all bells are off, about twenty second, before cranking. It cranks strong. Short bursts or long burst.
Is any way to check for the length of time for the glow plugs? I still have 3 of the original glow plugs, and one new one last year when it did generated a code.

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 Post subject: Re: Glow plugs time on?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:32 pm 
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If you still have some original 7v ceramic plugs, it’s time to get all new ones.
I recommend replacing all four with Bosch 5v metallic glow plugs.

Also, it can’t hurt to check out your fuel system.
When was the last time you changed the fuel filter?
Any leaks at the filter head?

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 Post subject: Re: Glow plugs time on?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:55 pm 
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Thank you flash,

I already bought the new Bosch 5V glow plugs, but I have not changed 3 of them yet. I changed the fuel filter head and filter in June 2018 after I filled the tank with 15 gal. of unleaded by mistake. Long story, but my mistake. :furious:

This is the first time that I encounter cold weather starting issues. In past winters, even with 10F continuous days my little CRD managed to start with some help from the block heater.

Do you suspect that could be the heater in the filter head, allowing the fuel to gel? I pushed the primer and had a lot of resistance.

This time I notice that the glow plug light in the dash board remained lit for about 3 sec. the most. Past winters was about 15 t0 20 sec. at least. WW Diesel published a chart with the times base in the outside temperature, but I misplaced it. Anyhow 3 sec. is too short of a time for the glow plugs to be effective.

Just came back from an errand and had the block heater, and the battery charger, on for about 2 additional hours, tried and started at the first try. Could it be that Bosch glow plug controller? :( :2cents:

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 Post subject: Re: Glow plugs time on?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:44 am 
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The light "on" timer has no correlation to the glow plug "on" timer. Mine turns off so fast that I can't even see it during daytime. At night, there is a tiny little blip of light. Fraction of a second. But the glow plugs still work. I replaced my OEM glow plugs with ETecno1 5v P# GX2123. I still have the 7V tuning and the 7V module. They work great. Have worked without issue since IIRC, January 2016. I had 7V in prior, they really sucked bad. Either 5v set will be fine if you leave the 7v system in place.

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 Post subject: Re: Glow plugs time on?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:57 am 
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I think GDE said to use the Bosch 5v only. FWIW

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 Post subject: Re: Glow plugs time on?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:38 pm 
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The issue of the type of glow plugs is a dead issue, I have the metallic 5v Bosch plugs, one installed and three waiting to be installed. The ones in the engine now check out OK ohms wise, and I get no codes, but they do not remain "on" long enough to do their work. Why? How I can check this function?.

This happen over night. One day was working fine, next day they didn't. Lower air temperature yes, 40F down to 25F, but not as low as in other occasions, 10'sF, on years before.

My question remains, What controls the length of time and how can I check it?, or could it bet that the Bosch relay is not closing the circuit to the plugs?, but that would not impede the dash board light operation, would it?. :banghead:

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 Post subject: Re: Glow plugs time on?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:11 pm 
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The Bosch relay is just a relay.
(Its actually a solid-state relay but that besides the point.)
Its the ECM that controls the relay and turns on the dash light.
The ECM determines ON time by ambient air and coolant temperatures.
I remember a post a long time ago where someone unplugged the coolant temp sensor, thereby signalling a extremely cold temp signal the the ECM, and got slightly improved cold starting.
Give it a try if you like.

Could the relay be bad?
Possibly. I dont know how to test it.
Voltage checks to the glow plugs wont tell you much. You need an oscilloscope to do it properly.
The glow plugs actually receive 12 volts but the ECM modulates that voltage (through the relay) so that it averages to about 7 volts.

So try replacing the relay. If that dont help, then glow plugs.

Of course, given the age of yours, pulling the plugs creates the risk of one being stuck and getting broken off inside the head. Which is why it was recommended to replace all the ceramic glow plugs with steel ones several years ago.

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 Post subject: Re: Glow plugs time on?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:36 pm 
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Thank you flash,
That give me a lot better idea of how the system works. The OM manual, I have a hard copy, is of no help.
The plugs will be replace as soon as the weather permits. I work on my open driveway. Too cold now to fool around with plastics. I learn not to try to bend or dislodge them when the outside temperature is below 70F.

If the ECM uses the coolant temp, in addition to the ambient temperature, for setting the time for the glow plugs then the use of the block heater will shorten the time. That could be the reason why it took four hours plus of for the block heater to warm up the cylinder and head walls for it to fire yesterday, but I am following now the possibility of the fuel gelling, thinking the the increase in temperature inside the engine compartment had solved the gelling of the fuel also.

Today, temp about 38F, I had the block heater "on" for about two hours and it fired almost immediately, refueled and added about 8 onz of anti-gelling to the fuel, indicated a mount for 20 gals, just in case that I had non winterized fuel in the tank that was about to reach the 1/4 mark that i use as my refueling point. Three or four stops in my errand, average three to four miles between stops, without problems, long enough for the anti-gel mix completely with the fuel and through out the lines and filter head. This will eliminate the possibility of the fuel gelling in the lines and the filter head before it gets to the pump. :juggle:

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 Post subject: Re: Glow plugs time on?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:18 pm 
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I am personally not convinced it has anything to do with the glow plugs. One clarification needed first. If you are saying it was 30 degrees below farenheight then yes it could well be the glow plugs/ heat needed. It seems like you are saying it got below 30 degrees farenheight and it wouldn't start. If its just below 30 F not -30F it should start with minimal glow plug function or block heater. The no start in that case may well be from another problem such as crank sensor etc. At -30F you would most likely need block heater and or engine blanket or other measure to start reliably.

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 Post subject: Re: Glow plugs time on?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:36 pm 
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TKB4,
The referenced temperature have been between 26F to 30F, that is below freezing, bot not in the minus side. Your are corrcet in your evaluating of the situation. As I get no codes from the glow plug system, just short time for the dash board light, and today, slightly above freezing, started with just some help from the block heater, I and investigating the possibility of the fuel gelling. Tonight will be the final test.
Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: Glow plugs time on?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:49 am 
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Mountainman wrote:
I think GDE said to use the Bosch 5v only. FWIW


Actually GDE doesn't recommend any specific plug afaik, Mountainman.
GDE checked the factory 7v programming and found it ridiculously insufficient, so they wrote their own tune for people that want to stay with 7v metal plugs, and their tune is all they recommend. If I understood their post, the Bosch metal 7v plugs are the only ones they tested it with.

Sergio. One more time. The "time on" duration of the glow plug LIGHT has no relationship whatsoever
with the "time on" duration of the GLOW PLUGS.

Both are controlled - separately - by the ECM. I know the FSM shows a chart indicating that it's dependent, it may have been the FCA intention, but in all actuality, it's really not.
However, what IS true, is the "Glow plug power ON" from time of ignition ON.

Coolant . . Pre-heat . . Post-heat
-30C . . . .35 SEC. . . .200 SEC.
-10C . . . .23 SEC. . . .180 SEC.
+10C . . . .21 SEC. . . .160 SEC.
+30C . . . .20 SEC. . . .140 SEC.
+40C . . . .19 SEC. . . . .70 SEC.
+70C . . . .16 SEC. . . . .20 SEC.

I removed the "light time" column as it has no accuracy.
You can see, though, that both pre-cranking GP heat time, and post-cranking heat time are scaled by coolant temperature.

Essentially, whatever the glow plugs you use, Tune being equal, the 5v plugs will get hotter than the 7v plugs.
Other than that, the only difference required between a little bit cold and very cold, is TIME. Give them more time to warm their environment up. Some will turn the ignition on, but not crank for 20ish seconds, then off, then on again for about the same time, before cranking to start. Other than that, I guess keep it plugged in, but unless it's on a timer, it can get expensive.

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 Post subject: Re: Glow plugs time on?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:27 am 
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Thank you Gordnado, that is the time table that I misplaced. Good to know that the time "on" from the glow plugs is independent of the time of the light in the dash board.

Previously, when the outside temperature goes to the 30's I have been leaving the key switch "On" until all the bells finish their routine, and with the temperature in the 20's I have been repeating that cycle twice or three times, system that had worked even with 20 inches of snow on the ground. Now I have a better idea of how long to leave it "on" until I crank the engine.

At this time I an inclined to believe that my CRD non starting issues were related to fuel gelling, together with short time for the GP to heat. After treating the fuel with additive, I have had no more issues, even though the outside temperature have been hovering a little above the freezing mark.

Today the temperature is on the low 40's so I will try to start the CRD without using the block heater and see how this go.

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 Post subject: Re: Glow plugs time on?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:03 pm 
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:idea: Just a thought, why not install a very small digital volt meter on the dash and wire it to one of the output legs of the glow plug relay/controller. Then you could watch the GP's in action and for how long. :idea:
Has anyone done this? They are very inexpensive.

I don't live in a very cold winter climate situation, but when it gets down close to freezing, I always cycle the key on and off several times allowing all the dinging and instrument cluster lights to stop flashing before attempting to start the engine.

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 Post subject: Re: Glow plugs time on?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:46 pm 
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Good news, This morning the little CRD started without the use of the block heater, letting the "ignition" key on for about 20+ sec. Air temperature 40F. Started in about 4 cranks, which is average cranking during the winters around here. Did my errands and back home without any problem.

wwDiesel, what you describe is exactly my procedure when freezing temperatures arrive, even in summer I wait for all the bells and lights in the dash board complete their cycle, at least once. That is why I am suspecting fuel gelling rather that glow plug function was the problem. We are not scheduled for another freezing blast until next week. I will be sure that the tank is full and see what happens.

Thank you all for your good advise.

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 Post subject: Re: Glow plugs time on?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:26 pm 
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I am also not convinced that normally even summer formula diesel would gel near 30 degrees F .I have stored summer blend diesel in a 500 gallon tank and also in a 108 gallon truck bed tank in my F350 and filled up Truck and CRD with it with no problems at least to the high teens. Perhaps you had a little water in the line somewhere even though the water in fuel light wasn't on. That would also explain having to leave the block heater on so long. 24F here this am and I always cycle key twice when this cold and started no problem. When it is cold enough to really need GP s Even after it starts it runs rough for 30 to 6o seconds Like 10 degrees F or less on mine.

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 Post subject: Re: Glow plugs time on?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 5:44 am 
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I have had no problem with my setup down to -19F, but I always use an anti-gel every time I fill up.

The morning that I woke up to -40F and windy, it had been above freezing, mid 30sF and clear when I went to bed. It kind of caught everyone by surprise. I've always always kept additive in my diesel since then, no matter the weather.

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 Post subject: Re: Glow plugs time on?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:36 pm 
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see below


Last edited by VicK on Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Glow plugs time on?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:01 pm 
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I too was puzzled by the short time the glow plug indicator was on. In the manual, I found the the time the glow plugs are ACTUALLY ON, as related to coolant temperature. This was shown below (more succinctly), but here it is again, directly from the manual for the CRD, page 8i-25:
(sorry for all the dots... this site doesn't recognize spaces so I had to fill them in with something).

engine coolant temp......wait-to-start lamp......Pre-heat cycle (time..........Post-heat cycle
.....with "Key on"...............time "ON"................plugs are on B4 start).....time on (after start)

...-30 C / -22 F.....................10 sec ......................35 sec ........................200 sec
...-10 C / 14 F......................10 sec ......................23 sec ........................180 sec
...+10 C / 50 F......................1 sec ......................21 sec ........................160 sec
...+30 C / 86 F......................1 sec ......................20 sec ........................130 sec
...+ 40 C / 104 F....................1 sec ......................19 sec ........................140 sec
...+ 70 C / 158 F....................1 sec ......................16 sec ........................ 20 sec

So big surprise to me... the glow plugs are ALWAYS operating for a while, just for a different length of time depending on coolant temp, even when the engine is warm. So when starting in the winter.... WAIT 22 seconds after seeing the indicator go out in 1 sec, or lasts even 10 sec if its below -10C/14F. THEN YOU HAVE ACTUALLY USED THEM PROPERLY.

DUH on Jeep.... like they couldn't leave the light on for the actual pre-heating time? Really?

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