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 Post subject: Thermostat Replacement
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:24 pm 
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It looks like it's time to replace the thermostat. Now that the weather has cooled down it's easy to tell that it's probably not working. Temp does not quite get to the 1/4 mark. Right now I'm planning on purchasing the replacement taking it to a local shop for the labor. I see I can buy an OEM from IDL for ~135 or a Crown from the local parts house for ~96.00. Any reason to spend the extra $$$ for an OEM??

Also, how many hours should I expect the shop to charge me for??

Debating on whether it's time to do the hoses.

The CRD is at 78,000 miles and I just had the timing belt change...silly me should have had the thermostat stuff done at the time.

Thanks for any input

Richard

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 Post subject: Re: Thermostat Replacement
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:46 pm 
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I have exactly zero experience, but my $0.02 is that if $40 separates a question mark from another 100,000+ miles of service, I'd choose OE every time. That goes double if you're paying someone else for labor... you don't want to pay them twice for the same work if something goes weird. I'd apply this logic to everything, not just CRD parts. Gambling with your own time or big money is one thing... gambling with someone else's time and small money? No brainer IMHO.


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 Post subject: Re: Thermostat Replacement
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:48 pm 
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litton wrote:
It looks like it's time to replace the thermostat. Now that the weather has cooled down it's easy to tell that it's probably not working. Temp does not quite get to the 1/4 mark. Right now I'm planning on purchasing the replacement taking it to a local shop for the labor. I see I can buy an OEM from IDL for ~135 or a Crown from the local parts house for ~96.00. Any reason to spend the extra $$$ for an OEM??
Also, how many hours should I expect the shop to charge me for??
Debating on whether it's time to do the hoses.
The CRD is at 78,000 miles and I just had the timing belt change...silly me should have had the thermostat stuff done at the time.
Thanks for any input
Richard

DO NOT buy a chinese made or Crown Thermostat, they have been proven to be a very bad and a short term investment. They just don't last or worse yet are bad out of the box.
Buy an OEM Mopar thermostat and get your monies worth. They are available online from IDParts, Sasquatch Parts, and some other Mopar dealers.
Example: Mopar Part No.: 5142601AA $119.70 > https://www.moparpartsgiant.com/parts/m ... 601aa.html

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 Post subject: Re: Thermostat Replacement
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 5:38 pm 
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Yeah, and even the OEM ones only last about $40k. There's a lost member that makes a quality serviceable unit. Just google "hds lostjeeps", and you'll find threads on it.

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 Post subject: Re: Thermostat Replacement
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:35 pm 
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Mountainman wrote:
Yeah, and even the OEM ones only last about $40k. There's a lost member that makes a quality serviceable unit. Just google "hds lostjeeps", and you'll find threads on it.



litton:

I am available if you wish to discuss the issue at length... Please check your private message inbox.

Installing a thermostat is not that difficult, but to do it properly and to avoid mess it can be time consuming. If you are handy at all I recommend doing the work yourself. I have detailed instructions on installation procedures that I can e-mail to you.

Jeff Bauer


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 Post subject: Re: Thermostat Replacement
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:47 pm 
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Some have reported good results with the Stant 50388, which previous inquiries by lost members have found it to be NOT a repackaged crown part. This is a 188 degree valve. Rock Auto has been selling the last batch at $35 each. Only 1 left on there right now.

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 Post subject: Re: Thermostat Replacement
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:55 pm 
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Since no one else seemed to address it I will take a stab on the time involved if you were doing it yourself for the first time I would allow 2-4 hours. Quite a bit of time is simply draining the coolant and replacing it and bleeding it . I would expect for a shop to do it 1 1/2 hours no more than 2 hours. They should be able to tell you the shop manual hours before they even do it.

This brings up another point. If you didn't put fresh coolant in when they did the recent Timing belt change and hopefully water pump service then now is the time to get it done essentially for free. Use nothing but HOAT coolant and I always get the Zerex G05 concentrated and 1 gallon of distilled water generally cost about $20 at NAPA and Advance Auto are usually where I find the best prices.

The HDS thermostat Jeff pm you about is certainly a quality product and you shouldn't ever have to do anything but change the actual valve like and old chevy 350 and most other older engine thermostats, Its high but you just have to decide if its worth it to you if you are paying someone else to do it and it costs $130 for thermostat and about $150 for labor when its needs it again and it will then you would more than break even but that could be a long time since it appears you don't drive it too much. If you use the 193 or slightly higher thermostat you may also expect to gain around 1 percent better fuel mileage.

If I was to use an aftermarket one it would be the Stant mentioned above it sells on amazon.

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 Post subject: Re: Thermostat Replacement
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:13 pm 
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I 2nd the Stant 50388. Been running it for a while without any problems. Temp gauge sits just a hair to the left of 12 o'clock.

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 Post subject: Re: Thermostat Replacement
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:16 pm 
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iakj11 wrote:
Some have reported good results with the Stant 50388... Only 1 left on there right now.

And it's gone now. Not seeing these on amazon either. Last time Rock Auto sold out of these they got new stock in within 60 days.

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 Post subject: Re: Thermostat Replacement
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:58 pm 
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ebbnflow wrote:
I 2nd the Stant 50388. Been running it for a while without any problems. Temp gauge sits just a hair to the left of 12 o'clock.



The O.E. gauge is notoriously inaccurate and non-linear.... that needle position just to the left of 12 0'clock can mean a temperature of anywhere between 176 degrees Fahrenheit and 203 degrees Fahrenheit. One needle width can mean a 30 degree jump in temperature, and the next needle with can mean a three degree jump in temperature. Do not trust your O.E. temperature gauge.

What I am trying to say by this is just because your O.E. temperature gauge needle is just to the left of 12 o'clock does not necessarily mean the engine is running hot enough.

One way to determine your engine's operating temperature, other than installing an accurate temperature gauge, is to plug in an OBDII reader and read the engine's operating temperature from the ECU. This assumes that your O.E. temperature sending unit is functioning properly.

You can also shoot a laser temperature gun to the top of the thermostat as another way to properly check engine temperature, and as a cross reference against the temperature reading you get from the OBDII reader. If the readings are exactly the same, or almost the same the O.E. temperature sending unit is O.K. If the readings are significantly different, then the O.E. TSU must be replaced. This assumes that both the OBDII reader and the IR temperature gun are properly functioning.


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 Post subject: Re: Thermostat Replacement
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 5:33 am 
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Not wanting to pirate the thread here, but I just had a thought that I've not heard addressed before.

We all know that the OEM temperature indication is inaccurate, and the indicated temp is non-linear at the dash gauge.

Do we know why? Is it the coolant temp sensor? ECM? Dash gauge? I can read temp on my el-cheapo scan tool, but I'm not sure at this point how accurate it is either. Does it suffer the same inaccuracies the dash gauge does?

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 Post subject: Re: Thermostat Replacement
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 7:12 am 
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Based on personal observations on two equally equipped CRDs, I would says it is the gauge that is inaccurate, not the sensor. I have an HDS with a 203 deg. stat in each CRD. They both read 203 deg. on my Innova scan tool.

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 Post subject: Re: Thermostat Replacement
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:14 pm 
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I cannot speak for the CRD, but the gauge behavior is typical of many cars on the road these days. Manufacturers started "abstracting" the gauge from real temperature to reduce the number of worry-wort customers coming in and complaining about engines that run too hot or too cold. On many - if not most - cars these days, "a tick below the middle" encompasses normal running temperature, a variance of 10-20 degrees depending on car. On my Saab, for example, I can program:

Gauge position for "cold"
Minimum temperature for "normal"
Maximum temperature for "normal"
Offset (from middle) for "normal"
Gauge position for "hot"

I can say, for example:

If it's under 50C, put the gauge at the 25% mark.
If it's between 80C and 115C put the gauge just to the left of 50%
If it's over 129C put the gauge at 75%

I can't choose arbitrary numbers, but there's several options for each choice. If a customer came in and said "my car runs hot, at 50%" I just hook up the tool and tell it "normal" is 40%. Problem solved!

My Jag, Audi, and Cadillac are all similar to this... I just happen to have reprogrammed a Saab recently so it's fresh. :D The Jag, I will say, is particularly problematic since "normal" is everything from like 180F to 230F. So if, say, the radiator fan stops working everything is a-ok until suddenly the engine is fried. :(


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 Post subject: Re: Thermostat Replacement
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:48 pm 
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Just wanted to mention to the OP, that I have seen nothing but excellent results from the HDS001, and nothing but problems with the OEM stats, primarily premature failure.
But, I have also seen at least one fail mostly closed!
I work on nothing but these jeeps for a living, so I've ran more of these engines through the temp cycle than most.

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 Post subject: Re: Thermostat Replacement
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 7:08 pm 
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Mountainman wrote:
But, I have also seen at least one fail mostly closed!

So have I, almost 30 years ago on a traditional replaceable thermostat.
It's not just the OE stat on the CRD that has failed closed.
Not defending the factory design, it sucks.

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 Post subject: Re: Thermostat Replacement
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:51 pm 
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Diesel Dan wrote:
Mountainman wrote:
But, I have also seen at least one fail mostly closed!

So have I, almost 30 years ago on a traditional replaceable thermostat.
It's not just the OE stat on the CRD that has failed closed.
Not defending the factory design, it sucks.


That's true, standard ones seize also

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 Post subject: Re: Thermostat Replacement
PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 5:11 am 
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mrhemi wrote:
Based on personal observations on two equally equipped CRDs, I would says it is the gauge that is inaccurate, not the sensor. I have an HDS with a 203 deg. stat in each CRD. They both read 203 deg. on my Innova scan tool.



X2... This has been my experience as well.

My personal take on this issue is that the gauge has been deliberately made inaccurate and non-linear. They do this - as pointed out by "thesameguy" - to quell worried owners who would otherwise be running into dealerships to complain that their engine is running too hot or too cold. The auto manufacturers may have realized that at least in the case of engine operating temperatures, "ignorance is bliss".

In the specific case of the Liberty CRD, if people actually knew the engine was running at 176 degrees Fahrenheit all of the time because they can see the readings from an accurate engine temperature gauge, (that has numbers on it or a digital readout in conjunction to the gauge with the needle and hash marks), they may LEGITIMATELY complain that the engine is running too cold. They will invariably follow up their complaints by doing some research and find out that these vehicles in all other markets outside of North America are running 195 degree thermostats. Then the doo-doo will hit the fan because most CRD owners realize their engines would be more efficient, more powerful and more reliable if running about 20 to 25 degrees hotter.

With the advent of the internet and online forums such as this, vehicle owners from around the world can share information about vehicle performance and problems from all markets and compare notes. There are experts in virtually every category of vehicular systems on virtually every forum who can figure out what is best for a given vehicle by doing these comparisons; as has happened here on LOSTJEEPS.com. Manufacturers know this, so they strive to keep as much specific operational information away from owners as possible to at least delay this gathering of information so owners can compare notes.

Auto manufacturers really do not want people to keep their vehicles any longer than about 6-8 years; they survive by selling a person many vehicles in their lifetime. Therefore, it is not in their best interest to make all operational information readily available to owners because owners will find ways to tweak operational parameters derived from accurate gathering of operational information and make the vehicle last longer and/or perform better. Yeti's tunes are a good example of this.

Manufacturers also have other another worry; that "unqualified" people will perform modifications that can cause a failure or a catastrophic failure on the vehicle. A good example of this is the inline thermostat modification to increase engine operating temperature and to avoid replacing the O.E. thermostat assembly. Most people on this forum know what I think of this so-called fix and the reasons why it is a bad idea, so lets just leave it at that. Most of the time such modifications are easy to identify so any warranty is null and void. However, some modifications are very hard to identify and therefore a warranty battle can ensue; manufacturers and dealers want to decrease the possibility of this happening so they restrict the amount of operational information the owner gets.

Finally, sometimes failures caused by unqualified people modifying their vehicles are safety related, and therefore a question of liability may come into play. If an accident occurs, millions of dollars can be at stake in lawsuits filed by plaintiffs against the owner of the vehicle and also possibly the manufacturer. The manufacturers may see themselves as being on the moral high ground by preventing owners from getting the information they require to perform such modifications.


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 Post subject: Re: Thermostat Replacement
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:54 am 
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Get the Stant housing. I've been running one for about two years with absolutely no issues. They're a reliable manufacturer and given the age of these vehicles and other design defects they have there's a real possibility it will outlast it.


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 Post subject: Re: Thermostat Replacement
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 3:21 pm 
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Eclair wrote:
Get the Stant housing. I've been running one for about two years with absolutely no issues. They're a reliable manufacturer and given the age of these vehicles and other design defects they have there's a real possibility it will outlast it.


Are you talking about one of the inline thermostats?

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 Post subject: Re: Thermostat Replacement
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:02 am 
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Mountainman wrote:
Eclair wrote:
Get the Stant housing. I've been running one for about two years with absolutely no issues. They're a reliable manufacturer and given the age of these vehicles and other design defects they have there's a real possibility it will outlast it.


Are you talking about one of the inline thermostats?


I think he is talking about the Stant 50388: https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R ... 8&_sacat=0

I have two CRD's with the inline Meziere stats that I have been running for 12 years,,,,, even though everyone says they will cause head gasket problems: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/MEZ-WN0072/

The rest of my CRD's have the OEM stats which have been replaced several times. I have one that is bad right now and I am going to try the 50388 in it.

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