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 Post subject: Re: Power Issue
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2020 1:48 pm 
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Location: North America
Yeah; I was hoping to compare my cold readings to the normal spec. The main problems kick-in after arriving @ op-temp, but I'm just curious whether its cold performance is normal spec. A measurable target, if you will, besides the intuition of my butt in the seat, WOT.

[Update]

So I just inspected all wiring from connectors to harness 'union' for: MAP/IAT/TEMP/EGR/MAP/FUEL SENSOR/SOLENOID. The only visible/feelable issue was the insulation had scraped-down to bare-wire on the green wire near the temp sensor, but no strands were frayed:
Image

A few spots where the insulation was very lightly smooched but nothing compromising.

HOWEVER... I then went to check fuel-flow volume at the output of the filter-head. This pic is the total amount of fuel the Kennedy pumped into a 20oz jar in 2 30-second bursts. 7oz of fuel in 1 minute = NOT good:
Image

_________________
'15: bought '05 w/138k.
'16: HG/Rockers/ARPs/Thermo/H20pump/TbeltKit/ Seals/ Mounts/Kennedy fuel pump.
'17: bought manual Gas donor for its' ARB F/R Airlockers, OME 2.5" lift (gas-rated), JBA UCAs, ARB bumper.
'19: Trans w/Suncoast/Transgo/HDdiscs, new OME CRD-rated lift, electric tri-fan setup, BlackMagics/Centric Premiums, Airbags.


Last edited by Gypsy62 on Sat Mar 07, 2020 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Power Issue
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:22 pm 
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Posts: 450
Location: North America
My prior rejection of a fuel supply diagnosis is still buoyant. It makes no sense to me that a fuel volume/pressure issue would permit full power cold but then cut-out after reaching op-temp. That strictly points to the ECU deciding "uh-uh" @ >185f-ish; an electronic metering malfunction, not supply issue.

I'll try to tshoot the tank/pump issue tomorrow. Once I've restored flow volume/pressure, I'm still expecting the same symptom of a cold-hot power discrepancy.
Hoping I'm wrong...

[Correction] Also, yeah My66, I wanted normal idle & WOT MAP specs, not MAF, although both specs would be great to compare against my OBD live-data readings.
I still screw-up CRD nomenclature... I'll try to be more accurate & consistent. Ex: the IAT sensor = Intake Air Temp and is located on the side of the airbox (along with the MAF mounted on top of airbox).

Flash, reviewing your thread re solving your own similar probs it's a bit unclear to me precisely WHERE you had to replace wiring and fix the MAF wiring short-to-block. Clarification would be helpful and appreciated.

I started to remove the entire downstream wiring harness but quickly realized that:
A. It involved releasing many poorly-accessible connectors: crank sensor/oil pressure/coolant rez, etc, and,
B. Many of those other non-fuel sensors are not suspect of causing these problems; by unnecesarily wrestling with their connectors and wiring I run the risk of damaging perfectly fine circuit components (sensors/connectors/wiring).

Re checking connector pins/continuity, how the blazes does one remove that big honkin' plug @ the ECU? That ginormous ratchet-beast worries me; I don't want to wrestle it without knowing its correct removal procedure.

Thanks!

_________________
'15: bought '05 w/138k.
'16: HG/Rockers/ARPs/Thermo/H20pump/TbeltKit/ Seals/ Mounts/Kennedy fuel pump.
'17: bought manual Gas donor for its' ARB F/R Airlockers, OME 2.5" lift (gas-rated), JBA UCAs, ARB bumper.
'19: Trans w/Suncoast/Transgo/HDdiscs, new OME CRD-rated lift, electric tri-fan setup, BlackMagics/Centric Premiums, Airbags.


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 Post subject: Re: Power Issue
PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:50 pm 
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Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2015 12:31 pm
Posts: 450
Location: North America
DEAD KENNEDY.

#@%&*×!!!
This thing has under 10k miles in 3 years since I installed new... :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :evil: :evil: :evil:
All of you folks who opted for an in-tank pump should celebrate.

Unfortunately, the location/install I chose required dropping the tank to access. THAT is getting corrected!
Also, some of my connecting hoses don't look great so I'll replace with marine grade.

So, the only explanation I can think of for the Cold vs Warm performance discrepancy is that the fuel in the filter housing was serving as a reservoir for "Cold WOT". After a few of those sprints the coolant would coincidentally reach op-temp. Once warm, low-demand driving or idling would permit the volume of fuel in the filter reservoir to recover permitting a few more WOT bursts.
It took a road-trip at highway speeds to steer me back towards thinking fuel-starvation.

Back when I installed the Kennedy I was wildly PO'd after a member shared that it isn't self-priming. Now, another strike against this p.o.s. However, I already have all the required fuel/elec/mounting mods so I'm kinda' screwed into going with a similar replacement.

I'll report after back together.
Many, many thanks to all for the invaluable advice!

_________________
'15: bought '05 w/138k.
'16: HG/Rockers/ARPs/Thermo/H20pump/TbeltKit/ Seals/ Mounts/Kennedy fuel pump.
'17: bought manual Gas donor for its' ARB F/R Airlockers, OME 2.5" lift (gas-rated), JBA UCAs, ARB bumper.
'19: Trans w/Suncoast/Transgo/HDdiscs, new OME CRD-rated lift, electric tri-fan setup, BlackMagics/Centric Premiums, Airbags.


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 Post subject: Re: Power Issue
PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2020 4:13 am 
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Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2017 3:48 am
Posts: 462
Location: White River in the Bush South Africa
@Gypsy62...The ECU connectors...at least on my 2002 Export CRD is easy to remove.

I reach down the RHS into the engine bay.
The ECU has 2 connectors, a short one at the bottom and the main one on top of it...sitting vertically with a black plastic pull section at each end.

You get your finger tips behind the top of this black pull section and lift up on it fully.....the connector should then slide outwards and you can pull it out completely.

The connector has the female pins sticking out the one end...the Component Location section in 8W has the pin layout...very close together and hard to read....I tape a small needle tp my meter leads so as to penetrate the pins from the front.

The rear of the connector is where all the cables come in...you can check the wire colors to ensure you are probing the correct pin. There is a plastic cover covering the rear of the connector where the wires come in. Be sure not to lose this cover and fit it back on securely.
I had one of these covers fall off somewhere so have had to seal the back-end of the connector with Silicone Sealant to keep rain out! :shock:

You can pull the two connectors off without disconnecting the battery....a lot of the flow charts for tracing errors tells you to do so with ignition ON/OFF while you make voltage/resistance Measurements.

I have had to replace several wires on my CRD. Where these wires go into the ECM I cut off a faulty wire with about 2 inches of wire remaining. I then solder on my replacement wire to the stubby end and insulate it with shrink tubing. Without the proper tools it is impossible to remove and re-insert the ECU pins! :?

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2002 Export CRD


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 Post subject: Re: Power Issue
PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2020 9:52 pm 
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Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2015 12:31 pm
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Location: North America
BillyBob:
Any chance you could post a pic of the ECU on your '02 Export? Your written description would greatly benefit from an accompanying image. That would also confirm whether the ECU's connectors are similar. Postimages.com has worked fairly well for me; download your image then select "Hotlink for forums" and then paste into your 'Reply' @ the thread.
Also curious which wires you had to replace, exactly.
Thanks!

Separately, I spoke with the tech at Kennedy pumps today. Along with basically saying that Liberty CRD drivers are idiots, he went through the priming process:
- Remove power to the pump,
- Use a manual primer to draw fuel through the entire line, both pre & post pump,
- Restore power to the pump, and it should rage like a garden hose (his words).

I had already insured that it was fully-primed in previous tests on/off vehicle, but the direction to remove power whle priming was news. Anyway, following his instructions to the tee and still just whirring, no flow.

I disassembled the pump, visually-inspected the impellor and O-ring, surfaces... all looked okay, no wear or damage. While apart, I supplied 12vdc and visually-confirmed rotation.
He insists that if it spins, it pumps, and that I am screwing-up the priming procedure.

Enough of this finicky f##$%g pump! Tomorrow, I'm dropping $175 at a local shop for a similarly-rated, but SELF-PRIMING Carter inline replacement and will provide the model# and report results.
I LOVE burning cash on my jeep :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

_________________
'15: bought '05 w/138k.
'16: HG/Rockers/ARPs/Thermo/H20pump/TbeltKit/ Seals/ Mounts/Kennedy fuel pump.
'17: bought manual Gas donor for its' ARB F/R Airlockers, OME 2.5" lift (gas-rated), JBA UCAs, ARB bumper.
'19: Trans w/Suncoast/Transgo/HDdiscs, new OME CRD-rated lift, electric tri-fan setup, BlackMagics/Centric Premiums, Airbags.


Last edited by Gypsy62 on Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Power Issue
PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2020 3:12 am 
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Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2017 3:48 am
Posts: 462
Location: White River in the Bush South Africa
Gypsy62 wrote:
BillyBob:
Any chance you could post a pic of the ECU on your '02 Export? Your written description would greatly benefit from an accompanying image. That would also confirm whether the ECU's connectors are similar. Postimages.com has worked fairly well for me; download your image then select "Hotlink for forums" and then paste into your 'Reply' @ the thread.
Also curious which wires you had to replace, exactly.
Thanks!

Separately, I spoke with the tech at Kennedy pumps today. Along with basically saying that Liberty CRD drivers are idiots, he went through the priming process:
- Remove power to the pump,
- Use a manual primer to draw fuel through the entire line, both pre & post pump,
- Restore power to the pump, and it should rage like a garden hose (his words).

I had already insured that it was fully-primed in previous tests on/off vehicle, but the direction to remove power whle priming was news. Anyway, following his instructions to the tee and still just whirring, no flow.

I disassembled the pump, visually-inspected the impellor and O-ring, surfaces... all looked okay, no wear or damage. While apart, I supplied 12vdc and visually-confirmed rotation.
He insists that if it spins, it pumps, and that I am screwing-up the priming procedure.

Enough of this finicky f##$%g pump! Tomorrow, I'm dropping $175 at a local shop for a simarly-rated, but SELF-PRIMING Carter inline replacement and will provide the model# and report results.
I LOVE burning cash on my jeep :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:


Sorry but I am too old to work out these dang new fangled photo apps that can magically send pictures all the way over to the USA! :wink:

But if you are using the 2005 Jeep KJ Service Manual as available at:

http://www.colorado4wheel.com/manuals/Jeep/KJ/

Then on page 8E-16 Electronic Control Modules you will the picture of the ECM Electrical Connector in Fig 16 item #1.

This shows the large top connector, C2, on top of the smaller connector C1...they are not joined together...C2 lifts upward and C1..harder to get to....drops downwards.

Arrow 1 is pretty much pointing to the black plastic section that has been pulled upwards to send the connector sliding backwards to disengage from the pins on the ECU.

C1 works the same except you have to push down on the black plastic section.

If you cannot get it right disconnect the battery and unbolt the ECM Mounting Bracket.

Years ago my GF drove my 2002 Export CRD into a tree that jumped in front of her...damaging the front end slightly and the Left Front Fender. On this model...maybe because it is a RHD...the main cable harness travels right around the whole engine bay, goes through several connectors, travels under the radiator in a square metal tube and returns to almost where it came from. A distance of 12 inches from the ECU to the Power Distribution Box (PDC) travels about 6 feet around the whole engine bay.

Between the collision damage and the idiot Panel Beaters welding the front end...many wires up front would eventually rub through to another random wire next to it or would rub through to chassis. For instance if I turned ON the front Wiper...the +12 volts would steadily go up to 17 volts at which time the engine would chime and cut out. I had to cut the suspect wires off at both ends...including splices.. and replace with brand new wires..this time taking the short cut.

I also recently had to change the one wire going the short distance from the MAP sensor to the ECU as it was showing some continuity to chassis even when completely unplugged at both ends. This was totally not involved with the collision but these old Jeeps are starting to have the wire harnesses slowly rubbing through to chassis or to other random wires.

Fortunately I know my Electronics so have been able to trace and replace about 13 wires so far.
I have marked my changes on the relevant wiring pages and leave it inside the Jeep for the poor New Owner of my Jeep to find one day! :?

If you have suspect wiring you need to follow the wiring diagrams and for that particular wire color eg. BL/WH... means Blue wire with a White stripe....you need to disconnect all components connected to it...including all splices...so that wiring circuit is floating in mid air.

You should then be able to measure all points end-to-end for good continuity but there should be no form of continuity to chassis as that means a short to chassis or a short to some other random wire. Unless you can physically unwrap those wire to inspect them you will need to replace them! :shock:

_________________
2002 Export CRD


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 Post subject: Re: Power Issue
PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:39 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:33 pm
Posts: 1128
Location: Jackson,TN
not sure what things cost where you are but if you are not replacing with in tank carter pump the Facet pump ? model 40109 but can look it up is about $45 on Amazon and works very well. I had one Kennedy pump fail also out of 4 in about 5 years not good for spending 4 times as much for "insurance." I also expect you may still have problems . Also unless the is air leak in filter head the CP3 jeep fuel pump should prime the kennedy pump.

_________________
05 Blu LIM, OME GDE Tbo, wk II 245/75/17, KC Lights, bull bar, 195K H TC
05 Blu Lim, Dayton, GDE HT, 255/75/18 , 210K , H TC
06 Bla Lim, GDE Eco, Destination AT 245/75/17, 151K, H TC
06 D Khaki Lim 126K wkII Eur TC
05 D khaki Lim 145k refurbishing
All CRDS: Fumoto, Lift , Fan Shroud mod, fuel head Gen II, SAMCOS,self TB, 2 Mic filt, Hayden


Last edited by TKB4 on Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Power Issue
PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:43 pm 
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Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2015 12:31 pm
Posts: 450
Location: North America
Re pics, no worries B.B.; I was just curious whether the '02 and RHD factors = different ECU/Connectors/ Harness/Wiring from the '05-06 US LHD models.
All your info is solid counsel, thanks!

Picked-up a Carter P4070 @ $170 (only $80 online, incl. Tax/ship); conflicting specs online but it includes 3/8" barbs (not the 1/4" listed online) and some sources specify diesel-capable. $90 premium vs online to buy off the shelf here in Ensenada, but time is urgent [note: the Kenndy repair kit is $110]. Report back post-install.

_________________
'15: bought '05 w/138k.
'16: HG/Rockers/ARPs/Thermo/H20pump/TbeltKit/ Seals/ Mounts/Kennedy fuel pump.
'17: bought manual Gas donor for its' ARB F/R Airlockers, OME 2.5" lift (gas-rated), JBA UCAs, ARB bumper.
'19: Trans w/Suncoast/Transgo/HDdiscs, new OME CRD-rated lift, electric tri-fan setup, BlackMagics/Centric Premiums, Airbags.


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 Post subject: Re: Power Issue
PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 12:25 am 
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Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2015 12:31 pm
Posts: 450
Location: North America
SOLVED.
Carter is in w/solid flow to the filter head (unlike Kennedy, Self-Priming!). Road-tested @ Idle/WOT/Highway up to 4k rpm sprints; no lag or sputtering, full-power available w/no intermittency. Only codes good ol' 403/1140 egr-related DTC's.
I suppose the take-away (yet again) is "if you hear galloping think 'horses' before 'zebras'": Fuel Delivery before exotic ECU issues. That said, I still don't entirely grasp why I consistently had full power/boost when cold vs op-temp.

To drop the tank I rigged straps under the tank routed from the axle over the hitch assembly. Lowering was a breeze; raising, however, was a predictable pita:
Image

Unfortunately, the tank was 3/4 full during the pump R&R. That made emptying the tank for a steam-clean impractical (bummer). I did remove the in-tank pickup assembly to inspect for filth or damage. In order to lift the "filter cap" out of its' weird tri-clip I wedged 3 sawzall blades under the clips, permitting it to pop out:
Image

Surprisingly, there was essentially no muck contaminating the pickup assembly, but one of the two spring-loaded guide bars had wriggled loose, viewable laying on rag next to unit (easily tapped back into place on bench):
Image

Redesigned hose routing so tank wont have to be dropped to R&R pump. The "S" assembly was hard-mounted into the kennedy before, now it's accessibly hose-barbed:
Image

A few criticisms of the Carter:
- The supplied mounting nuts/bolts are unusably cheezy.
- NOISY! Holy crap, this thing howls. Maybe their better model pumps are quieter. I invested an extra 4 hours implementing home-made anti-vibration measures, reducing maybe 40% of the in-cab whir. Closed-cell rubber placed between all mounting plates/hardware, and used beefy zipties to dangle the pump from the supplied mounting plate w/rubber grommets. Pic attempts to illustrate "suspension" mounting concept; just pretend the roll of tape is a (noisy) fuel pump:
Image

I doubt I'm the first person to use zipties as "flexible retainers" by chopping-off an end to use as a "nut" while using a full-length tie as a bolt. Notably effective method for solidly securing fans/coolers etc to radiators.

Now to tshoot the Tekonsha3 brake controller.

_________________
'15: bought '05 w/138k.
'16: HG/Rockers/ARPs/Thermo/H20pump/TbeltKit/ Seals/ Mounts/Kennedy fuel pump.
'17: bought manual Gas donor for its' ARB F/R Airlockers, OME 2.5" lift (gas-rated), JBA UCAs, ARB bumper.
'19: Trans w/Suncoast/Transgo/HDdiscs, new OME CRD-rated lift, electric tri-fan setup, BlackMagics/Centric Premiums, Airbags.


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 Post subject: Re: Power Issue
PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 9:44 am 
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Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2017 3:48 am
Posts: 462
Location: White River in the Bush South Africa
Great...glad you got it sorted out! :D

The early Export 2.5 CRDs like I have do not seem to have issues with air in fuel or leaking connections at the tank. These early Jeeps did come out with a neat Raycor Filter head...similar but not the same as most USA owners have fitted to their Jeep...so maybe that helped.

For many years we 2.5 L CRD owners believed that our KJs came out with in in-tank pump which is why we never had problems....only later found out that none of us had pumps installed!

So I have no intention of fitting a pump on my 18 year old Jeep...at least if I did have to do so I would not have to drop the tank as there is an access panel inside the rear Cargo Area! :wink:

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2002 Export CRD


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 Post subject: Re: Power Issue
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2020 1:52 am 
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Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2015 12:31 pm
Posts: 450
Location: North America
Update:
So, the Carter went quiet. Which would have been very welcome if it didn't mean it wasn't pumping fuel. The jeep then started stalling on >20% accel and/or climbing. I quickly realized it could coast in neutral without stopping and then started back up after gliding for 7 seconds.

Result: a stressful but successful 4-hour trip home across Baja @ 40mph (and >32mpg!).

Upon inspection, the Carter's crappy oem slide-on +/- connectors had popped-off the + terminal on the pump. I'm going to solvent-off the electro-salsa doused onto the connectors and then use a conductive epoxy to permanently glue the rat-bastard oem connectors onto the pump terminals.

TIP: The Carters include a comic rubber cup intended to slide over the bottom of the pump housing to retain/protect the +/- connectors at their terms. Drill a hole through the bottom of the rubber cup to allow drainage should you ford elevated water.

_________________
'15: bought '05 w/138k.
'16: HG/Rockers/ARPs/Thermo/H20pump/TbeltKit/ Seals/ Mounts/Kennedy fuel pump.
'17: bought manual Gas donor for its' ARB F/R Airlockers, OME 2.5" lift (gas-rated), JBA UCAs, ARB bumper.
'19: Trans w/Suncoast/Transgo/HDdiscs, new OME CRD-rated lift, electric tri-fan setup, BlackMagics/Centric Premiums, Airbags.


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