Power Issue

Gypsy62 · **Posted:** Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:28 am

Okay, so my Garrett 2560 is in and whizzing. No external leaks anywhere, yee-ha. However...
Last March when this fiasco started there were two reasons I replaced the original (150k) turbo:
- I identified that the turb's leaking journal bearing was responsible for an increasing oil leak (@ qt/500miles),
- Turbo thrust was cutting-out intermittently.
- Only code was egr (Sasq 1/2).

I'd considered that they were unrelated. Replaced fuel filter, confirmed fuel-flow volume by ignition-on w/Kennedy pump filling jar. Still intermittent. 11-months later, swank turb installed &... same prob w/intermittency. However, I did just replace the filter as an easy measure; no change.

I have reviewed all previous LJ threads using keywords (@ google) "power loss, intermittent turbo lag" and other random stuff. However, the resulting info didn't seem very conclusive.

I don't think this is a turbo nor fuel pressure/volume issue. Consider: Engine-cold, there is NO lag. My painfully-vast experience engaging WVO system battles reminds that a clogged filter, failing pump, air in the line, congealed veg-oil... specifically fuel-related probs don't manifest in a way that permits intermittent full-power: starved is starved. Repeated round-trips from cold full-throttle 25#-thrust uphill sprints to <10# wimpiness is not typical. IMO the other threads focused too much diagnostic energy on fuel issues. This seems like an ECU fuel-control issue.

Also, this just FEELS like an electronic-control issue, not the stutter characteristic to fuel-supply failure. Based on sensor data, the ECU is suddenly deciding to restrict fuel metering. So, which sensors, connectors/pins, wiring?

I installed a new MAP sensor I had on hand. Inspected its connector's pins and nearby supply wiring; all appear normal. I spray-cleaned the MAF & IAC; their pins/wire appear sound. Maybe some very minor improvement, but certainly not the main culprits.
I'll double-check for add'l codes, maybe get lucky.

Focusing on ECU fuel metering and related sensors, I'd appreciate some savvy counsel.
April 1 this beast is supposed to road-trip with a 3.5k loaded trailer
I need FULL POWER, Scotties!
Thanks.

Keys: lost losing no power loss gutless savage deceleration wuss wussy turb turbo turbocharger dying fuel starved starving wimp-o-rama

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Thu Feb 27, 2020 3:45 am

Does it fell like a skip or like it is going into limp mode with reduced power?
Do you have any means to monitor fuel rail pressure to see what it is doing when this happens?
Like an ELM OBD2 scanner and software on a phone or tablet.

Another thought, check the pins/connectors on the ECM and see if any of them are discolored.
Have you checked all grounds in the engine compartment?

Is it an 05 or 06? If 06, have you checked the wiring harness behind the fuel filter head? Known issue.
Check all the wiring harnesses where they go across or around the engine for any rub or stress spots.

With it being heat related, it could be an electrical problem and something is opening up when it gets hot enough.
:5SHOTS:

Gypsy62 · **Posted:** Thu Feb 27, 2020 2:12 pm

Update:
DTC's: (cleared): pre-lag = 0403 [EGR] &1140 [FCV, alaEGRdelete]; Post-lag add 0093 [Fuel Leak, Large@Dry] & 0299 [Turbo Underboost@Duh].
Live-Monitor Data:
FRP [FuelRailPressure]: Pre-lag @ W.O.T.= 27k; Post-Lag @ W.O.T.= 15-17.5k, shift-dependent(torque).
MAF [MassAirFlow]: Pre-lag @ W.O.T.= .38; Post-Lag @ W.O.T.= .20.

Engine-off 5min then power returns for a bit = power intermittently available @ operating temp (warm).

Fuel Rail Pressure Solenoid possible culprit?

Thanks, WW:
Mine is '05
- P.O. replaced fuel head.
- Checked T-belt: no skip.
- Pressure tested CAC: tight.
- Mishis like-new & snug.
- I restored/improved all accessible exterior grounds 3 years ago (ground surfaces to fresh steel, through-bolted chassis grounds w/SS hardware, electro-salsa). Although the symptoms don't quickly point to a ground issue (imo), in general that's still solid advice.

One of my OBD's has live monitoring; will scope promptly to compare throttle on/off readings.

Re heat: intermittency does not seem to occur eng-cold. However, after warm sometimes there is still full-power. I can't identify any measurable pattern to the power-cut or relating to a specific driving habit.

If these symptoms were common to specific component partial/complete failure, it seems like the LJ brain-trust would have speedy directives: "replace 'X' sensor", or similar. However, if this is such a rare problem maybe I should focus on wiring & pins.

Many Thanks for input!

Funny aside- my casa is near downtown Ensenada at the base of the over-the-hill public road where all the Baja 500/1000 Trophy Trucks like to shake-out their climbing-power. "Papas n Beer"'s truck (a local fav) is blazing now and since the cops are all paid-off they have blocked hill-traffic to let them practice :SOMBRERO:

Maybe $10 and I can blaze both lanes, too! :5SHOTS:

flash7210 · **Posted:** Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:24 pm

I've been through all the parts of the injection system.
For me, it always set a code.

When the fuel rail pressure solenoid died, the engine just quit and wouldn't restart.

When the fuel rail pressure sensor was the problem, turned out NOT to be the sensor. It was the harness connector.
When the fuel quantity solenoid was the problem, same thing, harness connector.
Another time I had intermittent sputtering/stumbling on acceleration. It was the MAF sensor harness shorting out against the engine.
See a pattern here :wink:

If the problem is turbo related, I'd start looking at the vacuum lines, vacuum solenoids, and wiring to those solenoids.

Easy way to check wiring and connections:
Start up the engine and go shaking and jiggling all the connectors and wire leads.
If the engine sputters or stumbles, you're on the right track.

Jay ne Ohio · **Joined:** Sun Dec 12, 2010 5:49 pm **Posts:** 216

Is there a master list of things that cause limp mode in the CRD written somewhere?

Here are a couple that I know cause limp mode:

1) IAP sensor plug is not fully seated into the sensor- 05101120AB (pressure sensor on side of airbox) I think this sets the p299 underboost code. Sensor could also be bad, but this is less likely.

2) broken/smashed vacuum line to turbo (will throw p299 underboost code). These plastic lines are getting brittle. I broke one last week and had to splice a piece of rubber to fix.

3) p093 code which will put it in limp mode. Usually caused by air in the fuel, but it could be an actual fuel leak too (check the fuel lines going to the injectors).
Air in fuel is most likely either coming from the filter head or at the plastic push on connector at the fuel tank.

4) ????

Gypsy62 · **Posted:** Fri Feb 28, 2020 1:24 pm

I'm not so sure that this power issue is certifiably "Limp Mode". Intermittency.

What about applying flashes?
Laptop/cable in-hand, I need to delete the 0403etc and start experimenting with power/econo tunes adapted to my non-stock turbo & 3" intake/exhaust.
So, if my current power issue is being caused by the wiring/connectors to MAF/MAP/IAC, can I just "flash them away" rather than physically replacing connectors/wiring?

Re CRD fuel leaks & how they relate to codes & performance:
I purchased my CRD off an Ebay auction in '15 (under $4k). Flew to Baltimore to pick it up, drive back to Vegas. Took my time, and it drove great for a week until I started smelling fuel in AZ. The smell was stronger than the slow-dripping topside leak so I drove on. However, by the time I arrived home to my tools it was streaming (=lucky no BBQ). One of the Injectors was a bit loose, prob fixed.
However, no codes (=pre Sasq) and no noticeable loss of power.
Conclusion: if a leak is occurring post fuel-rail (return lines, injector seat) you may not get codes or lose power.
However, you WILL smell & see it :ALONE:

.

Based on Flash's experience [Thanks!], I want to install new connectors for all the related sensors. Vendor suggestions?
Thanks to all!

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Fri Feb 28, 2020 3:27 pm

Gypsy62 wrote:

I'm not so sure that this power issue is certifiably "Limp Mode". Intermittency.
What about applying flashes?
Laptop/cable in-hand, I need to delete the 0403etc and start experimenting with power/econo tunes adapted to my non-stock turbo & 3" intake/exhaust.
So, if my current power issue is being caused by the wiring/connectors to MAF/MAP/IAC, can I just "flash them away" rather than physically replacing connectors/wiring?
Based on Flash's experience [Thanks!], I want to install new connectors for all the related sensors. Vendor suggestions?
Thanks to all!

You can totally live without the MAF, but not the MAP, ECM has to have the MAP to control injection rate based on boost and intake temperature among other things.
MAF's only function was for EGR injection.

As to sensor connectors, see this:
Mopar OEM repair connectors.
http://connectors.dcctools.com/home.htm ... 09DCEC03D2

TKB4 · **Posted:** Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:20 pm

It seems like I had the P0093 when I had a short to the Mercedes/ IAP sensor on airbus.

When you did the grounds make sure you did the one not in the manual near headlight in front and below battery tray on drivers side if a US model.

Flash helped me run down my cause too.

Gypsy62 · **Posted:** Fri Feb 28, 2020 8:56 pm

Great info: Thanks Folks!

Yeah, I restored the one behind the L. Headlight, under the battery bracket (& others). That's also where I located my ARB compressor.

Re flashes, it would REALLY help if all the flash discussions/advice weren't piled on an Everest-high single thread. Why not have independent threads specific to intent? EGR, MAF, Economy, Power, etc. Or, just sticky the crucial data.

Back to diagnostics.
Thanks Again for all the excellent advice!

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Fri Feb 28, 2020 10:57 pm

TKB4 wrote:

It seems like I had the P0093 when I had a short to the Mercedes/ IAP sensor on airbus.
When you did the grounds make sure you did the one not in the manual near headlight in front and below battery tray on drivers side if a US model.
Flash helped me run down my cause too.

I believe that ground point is actually shown in the 05 FSM.
It is ground No. G112, shown on: Fig. 31 FRONT ENGINE COMPARTMENT, Page 8W - 91 - 44 CONNECTOR/GROUND/SPLICE LOCATION
Drawing not the best, but it is shown there...

Gypsy62 · **Posted:** Sat Feb 29, 2020 9:12 pm

If you flash-away the MAF, would any damage to its connector/wiring still impact performance?
If the wiring is grounding-out obviously thats going to create signal problems, but what if its connector/wires are Open (broken/sketchy) but not grounding-out; would an ECU-delete eliminate their negative impact/codes?

flash7210 · **Posted:** Sun Mar 01, 2020 6:07 am

Gypsy62 wrote:

If you flash-away the MAF, would any damage to its connector/wiring still impact performance?

YES.
You have to fix the wiring too.

mass-hole · **Posted:** Sun Mar 01, 2020 5:53 pm

Do you have a tune that ignores over and underboost codes? I image running a gt2560 would result in slower spool.

Gypsy62 · **Posted:** Fri Mar 06, 2020 3:29 pm

Just took jeep on first non-local road-test post major-mods (and 11-months); 200-miles R/T. I needed to obtain a moving trailer and could not delay its' retrieval until this power issue is resolved.

Essentially, it ran like a turbo-less vehicle. Not a huge deal until the return-trip towing the 1800# box trailer.
At least the rig got home.

On a few occasions, I punched-it for power and the jeep stalled. Pulled-over and it started right up, albeit in the same gutless mode. I avoid labeling it as "Limp Mode" because I think this is a different power issue; Not specifically that "Limp" function designed into the ECU.

I'm now thinking that I may have multiple problems. Before the road-trip I was convinced there wasn't a fuel-supply issue. But along with the gutlessness, it sounds weird; a bit sputtery, not just the normal diesel chug-chug. The tone is consistent, not intermittent.

The jeep sat for most of the last 11 months, with the occasional maddening test-start to mourn 2 leaking replacement turbos, etc. Fresh filter install: fuel contamination? While stateside, I filled with chevron and kleen diesel additive; no improvement.

Strange symptom: I was charging my cell underway and suddenly it beeped and displayed "Battery too hot for charging". Yikes! 5-years same phone, that was a first. I presume that it was referring to its own battery and not suddenly able to perform 12vdc supply-vehicle diagnostics.

However, it did make me wonder whether it's possible that the alternator was not supplying adequate current due to the power issue restricting RPM'S below 2300, usually @ 1800. I recall from blue-water sailing that the engine had to spin the generator @ 2100rpm in order for the diesel to charge the battery-banks. Is it somehow possible that the combination of reduced boost and rpms could add a factor of stress to the electrical systems? Obviously, the vehicle is designed to highway-cruise at OD rpms below 2k, but that presumes normal systems operation and stress. Unlikely, but still worth asking the brain-trust.

I stopped at the Stealer to order replacement connectors, MAP/MAP/FPSnsr-solnd, etc. NOPE: unavailable separately, only as entire harness, ALSO unavailable. But quoted me the harness-price anyway: $1600!!! :-)r

I'm about to start a separate thread requesting a list of CRD-compatible Duramax parts.

I gotta' get this jeep correct YESTERDAY!
Thanks.

[One bright spot from first real test-trip: Black Magic & Centric brakes perform fantastic! Noticeable improvement; uniquely controlled, even braking]

flash7210 · **Posted:** Fri Mar 06, 2020 5:53 pm

Are you able to read boost pressure?
If so, that could rule out a turbo problem.

Are you able to read fuel rail pressure?
That would help diagnose the fuel system.

Other than that, make sure you have good fuel supply to the injection pump.

The battery warning on your phone was probably from sitting in the sun.
Happened to me before.

Alternator should be supplying full output at 1000 rpm or higher.
Of course, it’s the voltage regulator that controls that.
And the regulator is part of the alternator.

Gypsy62 · **Posted:** Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:48 pm

Anybody know the normal operating spec for MAP kPa @ idle vs WOT @ low altitude?

Re boost response/reading, a bit of a change during road-trip. Before, when COLD the turbo response was strong and even, giving a WOT MAP of >25kPa @ about 25# of boost.
However, on this road-trip it seemed like the cold-response wasn't as brisk, though I didn't monitor w/OBD. Add that after warmed-up if I asked for too much throttle too quickly it would stall [4 times], a misbehavior it wasn't displaying pre-trip. Before, instead of stalling it would just refuse power.

Actually, that is part of the symptoms that has me reconsidering my prior opinion that this power issue is strictly related to electric-control systems, not fuel supply.
These symptoms remind me of a lifetime dealing with fuel issues: from Accords with dirt in the tank to IDI Fords struggling to drink from bad/thick/airy WVO, as well as a myriad of failed pumps/lines/fittings/clamps...

Along with its sputtery-song, that stalling now has me nearly convinced to work tank-forward confirming fuel quality/volume/pressure. @#%& ! I WISH i had installed the in-tank pump instead of an in-line Kennedy :banghead:

My66dodge · **Posted:** Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:56 pm

I will grab the normal MAF readings when I get back to work monday, they are written down in my toolbox

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Gypsy62 · **Posted:** Fri Mar 06, 2020 10:09 pm

Mass hole:
Re slower spooling @ GT2560, I frigging hope not!

Ball-bearings, liquid-cooled...
Faster spooling, a power-bump and leak-free reliability were my central motives in going through all of this time, hassle and expense!!!

I also had the vendor, Dieselsite, wicked-wheel the Garrett.
The current power issue pre-dates turbo replacement, so until I solve the problem I won't know how much of an improvement the 2560 & 3" in/out pipes yield.

Not thrilled with Dsite; first stock replacement turbo leaked upon installation. Then when I exchanged that leaker to upgrade to the 2560 they hit me with BS extra charges, wouldn't answer questions, and when it arrived the clocking bolts were barely finger-snug; glad I checked!

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Fri Mar 06, 2020 11:49 pm

My66dodge wrote:

I will grab the normal MAF readings when I get back to work monday, they are written down in my toolbox

He said MAP, not MAF.

Quote:

Anybody know the normal operating spec for MAP kPa @ idle vs WOT @ low altitude?

Does this help any?

My66dodge · **Posted:** Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:27 am

I was thinking he was looking for MAF v @ idle and wide open on a healthy engine

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