Found on road dead -- need advice

thefunk · **Posted:** Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:07 pm

Jeep stranded the wife yesterday, and I'm trying to diagnose it from 4 hours away. No prior codes, it's in a very good state of maintenance, about 145k miles, EGR deleted. Been running perfectly, then Bang, left her on the side of the road. Thought maybe a fuel filter because there was air in the filter. Replaced, pumped it up, no joy. Was showing a code for the cam sensor. Replaced, primed fuel system, still no joy. Mechanic (who is very cooperative and willing to listen to anything I recommend, a good guy I've used before) says there is fuel to the fuel pump but not coming out of it, even with the line disconnected. He tested the crank sensor, it shows good (it's making the tach move to 300-400 when cranking). Injectors are not getting signal to fire.

bad pressure regulator maybe? Security system? Loose nut behind the wheel? Or just a stubborn air issue? It's given us 145k trouble-free miles to this point. If I can't get it running I'll have to drag it home tomorrow and figure it out in the garage.

Thanks in advance!

flash7210 · **Posted:** Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:35 pm

Quote:

says there is fuel to the fuel pump but not coming out of it, even with the line disconnected

Not coming out where?

The hard line going up to the fuel rail?
Or not coming out of the return line out the back of the injection pump?

There is a fuel return line at the back of the fuel rail (light blue hose).
Disconnect that hose, then crank the engine.
Does fuel come out the rail side, hose side, both, or neither?

thefunk · **Posted:** Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:43 pm

It sounds like (again, I'm 4 hours away) there's no fuel being produced by the pump, so assume the mechanic meant the hard line from the pump to the rail. If the injectors aren't firing, is it possible the fuel quantity solenoid on the pump is preventing fuel from passing through the pump as well?

In the back of my head, I'm thinking that he's not trying to purge the air hard enough, the pump is still "vaporlocked" and the crank sensor is indeed defective and so the injectors aren't getting a signal to fire.

That or the ECU took a crap. Or something else expensive.

I've lined up a trailer, and I'm just planning on hauling it home tomorrow. I'm sure whatever it is, will be fascinating.

WolverineFW · **Posted:** Fri Apr 03, 2020 1:07 am

Timing belt broke? Camshaft codes and no fuel pump....fuel pump is driven by timing belt.

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk

Billybob · **Posted:** Fri Apr 03, 2020 3:37 am

What year is this CRD?

Security System problem would be the RED LED on left of cluster either flashing or ON all the time.

2006 CRD has a known problem of the Fuel Head Filter Mounting Bracket damaging the wire harness going behind it...causing shorts through to chassis.

Check all fuses under the hood and inside the cabin.

Front Control Module if fitted can get all gunged up as it is exposed to water, mud, snow etc.

Battery good? Needs to be able to turn over the engine without dropping voltage below about 9.5 volts or the ECM etc. will not fire up.

thefunk · **Posted:** Fri Apr 03, 2020 9:15 am

I thought timing belt could be the culprit, but it's only 6 months old and the engine windmills normally, with compression.

Security system is a good suggestion, as is checking the wiring harness. I've fought wiring rubbing issues once before.

It's an 05

I'm wondering if I'm not fighting 2 problems simultaneously; bad cam / crank sensors and air in the fuel due to the fuel line seals getting old and leaky. Might be time to finally do the lift pump mod.

TKB4 · **Posted:** Fri Apr 03, 2020 10:37 am

May be 2 problems but strong bet its mainly one thats causing no start. something like air in fuel can be easily checked by just disconnect hose to fuel pump and fill line with diesel with small funnel etc and it will start if thats the problem I have done it a couple of times. You might also do this to avoid running battery down much if already low when you have gotten air in the line or ran out of fuel completely.

Make 100% sure cam and fuel rail sensor didn't get swapped during diagnosis ( I know thats not original cause). unplug and replug ecm and inspect for corrosion etc and maybe same for front control module since yours is a 2005.

geordi · **Posted:** Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:37 pm

Cam sensor wire is not the same as the fuel rail pressure solenoid and the #4 injector. Cam sensor has 3 pins and is a wider plug, no chance of swapping that. Looking at the wiring harness, the injector comes off the harness by itself, the cam sensor and the rail solenoid are taped together as they exit the main harness, then separate about 2 inches away from the harness. So "sensors work together" and "Injectors work alone" can help you remember that difference even if the tags are gone from the wires.

How did it stop - noises? Slow degrading over time or sudden stall? This may be obvious, but what are the actual codes pulled? And were they cleared - did they come back?

TKB4 · **Posted:** Fri Apr 03, 2020 4:17 pm

I believe there is another sensor exactly the same as the cam sensor. at rear of fuel rail area.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Fri Apr 03, 2020 4:58 pm

Installing a lift pump will eliminate all air in fuel problems.
You could even temportly plumb in a cheap inline fuel pump between the fuel filter and it's inlet hose and wire it directly to the battery for a quick test. :wink:

rankom · **Posted:** Fri Apr 03, 2020 7:17 pm

you need to find scan tool that can perform monitoring fuel rail pressure when cranking, most likely you're losing fuel pressure.

rankom · **Posted:** Fri Apr 03, 2020 8:17 pm

reason why I'm saying fuel rail pressure is so important because we had a guy years ago replace almost everything, all the sensors including CP3 pump. and at the end he found out he had a dropped exhaust valve busted one of the injectors tips causing low fuel pressure. and no start. I hope this isn't the case for you, but its worth keeping in mind.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Fri Apr 03, 2020 11:00 pm

rankom wrote:

reason why I'm saying fuel rail pressure is so important because we had a guy years ago replace almost everything, all the sensors including CP3 pump. and at the end he found out he had a dropped exhaust valve busted one of the injectors tips causing low fuel pressure. and no start. I hope this isn't the case for you, but its worth keeping in mind.

Pulling each injector one at a time and examining their tips would eliminate this.
But I agree, knowing fuel rail pressure during cranking would rule out fuel related problem.
Got to start somewhere, is is fuel related or electrical problem (sensor or wiring) causing non-start?

thefunk · **Posted:** Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:03 pm

Ok, got it hauled home. Spent a few seconds with the mechanic, primer is bled and pumps up solid, but no fuel coming from the high pressure line from the pump. Definitely looking like a timing belt issue, although I'm still stumped as to why that would be an issue. It sounds normal windmilling, but then it's never rolled over more than twice before firing in its whole life so I don't really have a strong sense of what normal is.

I had him change the crank sensor anyway, since he had a lift and time to do it.

Hoping I'm not looking at a head or a full engine tear down.

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Apr 05, 2020 11:07 pm

I'm the traveling CRD tech if you want someone experienced with this engine to work on it - but it would be after this national crisis is over. This is the ONLY vehicle I work on and I've helped over 110 of them now.

If your engine jumped timing, then you will need to pull the valve cover (and the injectors / rail / etc) but the head and valves should be able to remain in place as the rockers are the designed failure point. This also allows you to install ARP studs to prevent an expected head gasket leak if it has not already presented around 130k miles. If the engine is close to 200K miles however, you will probably WANT to pull the head and replace all the valves, and do the rest of the upgrades at the same time to bulletproof the engine for another 200k miles.

thefunk · **Posted:** Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:55 pm

Don't know why I didn't do this earlier. Removed oil filler cap, cranked engine, cam is not turning. Slam good closed, go inside, assume fetal position and start crying.

It sounds like 1 cyl has no compression. So I'm guessing it dropped a valve, which bound things up enough to break the timing belt. Catastrophic failure at any rate. I was just at the "fish or cut bait" point on this rig, either bulletproof it and keep it or send it down the road.

Geordi I definitely appreciate the offer, but we all know that no one's going anywhere for a few months now. I'm a pretty dang sharp mechanic, but I don't have a proper garage to work in since we just moved. Nor do I have much time since I just started a new job.

Might just get a junkyard transplant and send it down the road. Dunno. Got too many upgrades in it to just give it away. Anyone want a project?

krb · **Posted:** Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:34 am

Bummer man! That is a horrible feeling...

Your experience makes me feel better about spending the coin for new exhaust valves when I did my timing belt just recently.

Seems like there were one or two members on here with engines for sale? Finding one in a bone yard near you would be pretty hard I should think?

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:45 pm

Did your wife say it made a real loud noise when it quit running and died?
Did you ever pull the injectors and examine the tips for damage?
You could have just broke or stripped a timing belt.
Pull the intake/valve cover and examine the rockers and see if any of the valve springs are sticking up way higher than the rest. (a sure sign of a broke valve stem)
You may just need a new timing belt and a set of rockers? :juggle:

report back,

thefunk · **Posted:** Thu Apr 09, 2020 9:11 am

Tore into it last night. Timing belt tensioner backed off (even though the bolt was still tight) which allowed the belt to slip behind one of the idlers and incinerate the whole mess. Next step it to pull the intake off and see how many lifters got crushed. I’m guessing at least two by turning the cams.

krb · **Posted:** Fri Apr 10, 2020 8:03 am

Was the tensioner replaced when the belt was 6 months ago? Who did the work, you or a shop? Just wondering if it was a shop would it be under a warranty still?

Found on road dead -- need advice

Who is online