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 Post subject: Overheating on long uphill runs when AC is on
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:04 pm 
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Pretty much as the title says, everything is fine except when I am going uphill a ways (6% grade for 10 miles or so) with the AC on. Overheating isn't terrible even then, temp gauge getting to 70% or so. No signs of overheating with AC on when driving on the flats or gentle hills, or stopped at a light.

My first thought was perhaps the front fan wasn't coming on. Will have to pull over the next time it happens to see if that fan is spinning or not. But thought I would ask here, if there is anything else I should be looking for.

TIA

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 Post subject: Re: Overheating on long uphill runs when AC is on
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:43 pm 
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Check to make sure there is no trash or debris on the front of the CAC or radiator or trapped between the CAC and the radiator blocking airflow through the radiator stack.
Have you installed the heavy duty GM plastic 11 blade fan and fan clutch? It definitely moves more air than the stock fan/fan clutch setup.
If you have not, you may want to consider it. Quite a few owners have went to the GM fan & HD fan clutch for increased cooling abilities.

See this:> viewtopic.php?f=5&t=82941

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 Post subject: Re: Overheating on long uphill runs when AC is on
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 6:59 pm 
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Thanks WW. Did check for blockages, and did not see any. One thing I discovered was the 40A fan fuse was blown, which could explain the overheating under uphill loads on hot days with the AC on (which is the only time it happens).

So I got some replacement fuses, put one in and checked the fan operation, opening up the fan relays and manually pushing them shut. Everything worked fine in the driveway, high and low speeds worked fine, and I ran it for ~1 min to be somewhat sure that the fuse would hold.

Took for a test today (95F in town). Engine temps were fine, until the uphill leg back up to the house. Ok for the first 4 or so miles, then the temp gauge started creeping up to the 60-70" range. When I got home, I checked with the hot engine and AC on, the fan was not turning. Further checking showed the new fuse I just put in had blown.

So I am puzzled by this. The electric fan seems to work OK when I test it in the driveway (unless that is not a long enough run). Perhaps there is some binding on the fan bearings every so often to cause a high current draw? Or maybe some chewed wires shorting out somewhere over bumps?

I guess I still have not confirmed that the relays are closing and trying to run the fan when hot (although the lack of overheating the first 4 or so uphill miles hints at that). Anyone know what the conditions are that are supposed to turn on the electric fan, and how I could simulate them for a test?

These symptoms sound familiar to anyone?

Also, does anyone know how the fan switching is supposed to work? Do both relays stay closed for high, or just the high speed relay closed?

Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: Overheating on long uphill runs when AC is on
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 7:50 pm 
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Maybe a wire to the fan has rubbed on some metal and is shorting out? Only happens when bumping along on the road. Still shouldn’t overheat though, I’d expect maybe ac performance to be low, but shouldn’t make an engine overheat.

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 Post subject: Re: Overheating on long uphill runs when AC is on
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:16 pm 
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Yeah, had thought along the same lines, only I had been putting that off since it is a bit of a wild goose chase finding that wire, if it exists.

Not sure that putting the engine under a heavy load (running uphill at 6% grade for 10 mi or so) with the AC on but no AUX fan wouldn't cause some overheating. It's not awful (no steam clouds and boiling over, etc) but the temp gauge is climbing past its usual mark.

Just curious, what do others think, should a CRD with no aux fan be able to do a long run uphill with the AC on at 95F without pushing the temp needle past the normal spot? Can folks with the 11 blade GM fan and fan clutch do that?

Could also be that the fan clutch is getting weak and not spinning the main rad fan fast enough when warm. I replaced it ~2 years back with a standard replacement. Maybe time for the GM fan mod.

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 Post subject: Re: Overheating on long uphill runs when AC is on
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:26 pm 
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That’s what I’m wondering. Sounds like compounding issues. But what are you considering normal temp? And have you modified the thermostat to get actually warm? Remember diesels would prefer to run 215° all day long if they could. Ours in stock emissions neutered form are lucky to get 150.
I just did the GM fan mod and it’s pretty easy and not too expensive. I was into it 114$. If you can’t hear the fan roaring, then either the Jeep isn’t hot, or your clutch isn’t working.

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 Post subject: Re: Overheating on long uphill runs when AC is on
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:11 pm 
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Normal operating temperature of stock thermostat is 176 deg.s F. One tick mark left of the straight up (12:00) on your OEM temperature gauge.
Actually too low a temperature for the efficient operation of a diesel engine.

But they were forced to build them this way for the US market due to idiotic stupid asinine EPA requirements trying to meet NOX numbers. :furious: :furious: :furious:

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 Post subject: Re: Overheating on long uphill runs when AC is on
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:21 am 
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A fuse that keeps blowing on a 2006 CRD always make me repeat that the Fuel Filter Head Mounting Bracket needs to be removed to check for damage to the wire harness behind the bracket.

Check for wires scraping to chassis or random wire shorting to other random wires. :wink:

Does the electric fan move freely when hot or does it feel as if it is binding?

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 Post subject: Re: Overheating on long uphill runs when AC is on
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:06 am 
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Steve777 wrote:
Just curious, what do others think, should a CRD with no aux fan be able to do a long run uphill with the AC on at 95F without pushing the temp needle past the normal spot? Can folks with the 11 blade GM fan and fan clutch do that?


Background: been running the GM 11-blade fan mod for about 2 years now; bought the CRD 3 years ago and had to replace pretty much the entire cooling system right off the bat. No problems with the electric fan, however.

My advice: go through everything. Fan clutch, electric fan, radiator, thermostat, hoses. I was having the exact same symptoms you were, and it turned out that in addition to a dead fan clutch (known issue when I bought the Jeep), the thermostat was also shot and the radiator was half-gone. Someone had also mixed non-HOAT coolant with HOAT at some point, which required a ton of flushing to clean up.

Note that this was a process of fixing one thing in the system, then finding the next that was weak or failed and replacing that - I didn't just go scattergun on it and replace everything because it seemed like a good idea. Ditton the 11-blade fan mod: that happened later because a) OEM replacement fan clutches kept dying on me after three or four months, and b) I wanted improved cooling, especially with the A/C on.

Quote:
Could also be that the fan clutch is getting weak and not spinning the main rad fan fast enough when warm. I replaced it ~2 years back with a standard replacement. Maybe time for the GM fan mod.


Definitely do the 11-blade GM fan, and also give consideration to the HDS Model 001 thermostat. Not cheap, but absolutely worth it.

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 Post subject: Re: Overheating on long uphill runs when AC is on
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:16 am 
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Quote:
Took for a test today (95F in town). Engine temps were fine, until the uphill leg back up to the house. Ok for the first 4 or so miles, then the temp gauge started creeping up to the 60-70" range. When I got home, I checked with the hot engine and AC on, the fan was not turning. Further checking showed the new fuse I just put in had blown.

So I am puzzled by this. The electric fan seems to work OK when I test it in the driveway (unless that is not a long enough run). Perhaps there is some binding on the fan bearings every so often to cause a high current draw? Or maybe some chewed wires shorting out somewhere over bumps?


Yeah, fan motor is probably worn out.
The motor can be replaced separately from the fan assembly.

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 Post subject: Re: Overheating on long uphill runs when AC is on
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2020 2:31 pm 
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Yep all the discussion is great but its blowing the fan fuse. Of course thats not normal and though the fan clutch might well be bad the electric fan isn't running when its overheated unless I misread. Fix the electric fan system and that should fix the problem.

I believe the electric fan comes on when AC turned on every time at least after a minimum engine temp but my CRD not here right now so I cannot say for sure but its worth a try.

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 Post subject: Re: Overheating on long uphill runs when AC is on
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2020 2:46 pm 
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TKB4 wrote:
Yep all the discussion is great but its blowing the fan fuse. Of course thats not normal and though the fan clutch might well be bad the electric fan isn't running when its overheated unless I misread. Fix the electric fan system and that should fix the problem.

I believe the electric fan comes on when AC turned on every time at least after a minimum engine temp but my CRD not here right now so I cannot say for sure but its worth a try.

You are very correct; I have played around with mine in the past and the electric fan does not come on immediately as soon as your start the engine with the AC on full blast. But rather, it comes on later after engine temperature or some other temperature reaches a setpoint it is monitoring and triggers the fan relay.
I sure wish I had a dang "control logic" diagram for these vehicles... :banghead:

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 Post subject: Re: Overheating on long uphill runs when AC is on
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:15 pm 
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Yep that sure would have come in handy several times just recently!

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 Post subject: Re: Overheating on long uphill runs when AC is on
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:47 pm 
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Thanks TB4 and WW. I suspect there is more than one issue here...

The fan fuse blowing is obviously not right. Given that it will run in the driveway when I manually close the relays for 1-2mins without issue, I am suspecting that there is a loose/broken wire somewhere that shorts out and takes out the fuse. Of course this comes into play only when I am going up the mtn on the way home with lots of bumpy dirt roads, so plenty of chances for a wire or two to get moved.

The other thing I noticed is when I park at home right after I stop, and the engine is hot, if I try spinning the fan manually it does not bind tightly to the pulley. It feels about as free spinning as it does many hours later when everything has cooled. I would expect that with a hot rad and the clutch being hot as well after the climb, that the fan clutch would be locked and hard to turn. Folks here talk about hearing the "woosh" when the fan locks up cause the engine is hot, I can't say I have ever heard that, even lately when I roll the window down and listen when the engine is hot.

Just curious, are my expectations of feeling the fan clutch lock up or tighten significantly with a just run hot engine reasonable? If not, how does one "test" a fan clutch? My hearing isn't the greatest, but I think I would hear that woosh of a locked fan, certainly when parked in the driveway and the hood is up.

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 Post subject: Re: Overheating on long uphill runs when AC is on
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:34 pm 
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Steve777 wrote:
Thanks TB4 and WW. I suspect there is more than one issue here...

The fan fuse blowing is obviously not right. Given that it will run in the driveway when I manually close the relays for 1-2mins without issue, I am suspecting that there is a loose/broken wire somewhere that shorts out and takes out the fuse. Of course this comes into play only when I am going up the mtn on the way home with lots of bumpy dirt roads, so plenty of chances for a wire or two to get moved.

The other thing I noticed is when I park at home right after I stop, and the engine is hot, if I try spinning the fan manually it does not bind tightly to the pulley. It feels about as free spinning as it does many hours later when everything has cooled. I would expect that with a hot rad and the clutch being hot as well after the climb, that the fan clutch would be locked and hard to turn. Folks here talk about hearing the "woosh" when the fan locks up cause the engine is hot, I can't say I have ever heard that, even lately when I roll the window down and listen when the engine is hot.

Just curious, are my expectations of feeling the fan clutch lock up or tighten significantly with a just run hot engine reasonable? If not, how does one "test" a fan clutch? My hearing isn't the greatest, but I think I would hear that woosh of a locked fan, certainly when parked in the driveway and the hood is up.


I once owned 2 E30 BMWs...they also had a fan clutch that would allow the fan to turn easily when cold then it would tighten up as the engine got hotter until it was pretty solid.

So we used to test these fan clutches...which failed quite often...by taking a rolled up section of newspaper. When the engine was hot and running we would plunge the rolled up newspaper into the rotating fan.....we would expect the fan to shred the newspaper if the clutch had locked up firmly...if it stopped the fan from spinning then we knew the clutch was bad!

Maybe something like this could be tried on the KJs but it seems a bit difficult to get easy access to the spinning blades with a rolled up newspaper! :wink:

The electric fan you need to trace the wiring from the blowing fuse to the fan physically or electrically to find the short....although an intermittent problem is more likely to be found by physically tracing the wiring. I have traced plenty bad wires on my 2002 Export CRD and the problem there is that the wires do not take the shortest route from point A to point B but travel around the whole engine bay...maybe because it is a RHD but basically I had to isolate bad wires by unplugging all solenoids etc. on that circuit and if needed cutting ends of wires off so that the suspect wire was "floating" in mid-air with no conductivety to ground...if any leakage to ground was shown I would replace that bad section with a new wire.
On my 2002 Export CRD the main harness travels under the radiator through a square section of channel iron...impossible to get to. This was damaged when my Partner drove the Jeep into a tree that had jumped in front of her. I had about 14 weird problems such as that when I turned the front wipers ON...the +12 volts supply would steadily rise to 17 volts at which time the Jeep would power down. I monitored the voltage by plugging my Multi-meter into the Power Outlet socket in the cabin!.
The battery soon boiled itself to death!

Have you checked the wiring behind the Fuel Filter Head Mounting Bracket yet? :?

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 Post subject: Re: Overheating on long uphill runs when AC is on
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:15 pm 
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Billybob wrote:

I once owned 2 E30 BMWs...they also had a fan clutch that would allow the fan to turn easily when cold then it would tighten up as the engine got hotter until it was pretty solid.

So we used to test these fan clutches...which failed quite often...by taking a rolled up section of newspaper. When the engine was hot and running we would plunge the rolled up newspaper into the rotating fan.....we would expect the fan to shred the newspaper if the clutch had locked up firmly...if it stopped the fan from spinning then we knew the clutch was bad!

Maybe something like this could be tried on the KJs but it seems a bit difficult to get easy access to the spinning blades with a rolled up newspaper! :wink:



This is a standard test world wide!
If you do it right it doesnt need to shred the paper. You can angle the paper against the fan & see if it stops.

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 Post subject: Re: Overheating on long uphill runs when AC is on
PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 4:20 pm 
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layback40 wrote:
Billybob wrote:

I once owned 2 E30 BMWs...they also had a fan clutch that would allow the fan to turn easily when cold then it would tighten up as the engine got hotter until it was pretty solid.

So we used to test these fan clutches...which failed quite often...by taking a rolled up section of newspaper. When the engine was hot and running we would plunge the rolled up newspaper into the rotating fan.....we would expect the fan to shred the newspaper if the clutch had locked up firmly...if it stopped the fan from spinning then we knew the clutch was bad!

Maybe something like this could be tried on the KJs but it seems a bit difficult to get easy access to the spinning blades with a rolled up newspaper! :wink:



This is a standard test world wide!
If you do it right it doesnt need to shred the paper. You can angle the paper against the fan & see if it stops.
im not sure how you can’t tell that the engine is hot enough to warrant clutch engagement however, unless it’s over hot.

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 Post subject: Re: Overheating on long uphill runs when AC is on
PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 4:35 pm 
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Jett wrote:
im not sure how you can’t tell that the engine is hot enough to warrant clutch engagement however, unless it’s over hot.

Very Simple,
Get yourself a Digital Infrared Thermometer Gun, they are available at very low costs now days. :google:
Very handy to have to measure a surface or metal temperature on fixed or moving parts.

Like or similar to this one:

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 Post subject: Re: Overheating on long uphill runs when AC is on
PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:29 pm 
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Jett wrote:
im not sure how you can’t tell that the engine is hot enough to warrant clutch engagement however, unless it’s over hot.

If its not engaging when overheating, then its not working properly. I have found that the engagement temp is not an exact thing. If the temp gauge is up over 3/4 it should be engaged.

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