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 Post subject: End of my good luck - Updated
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:33 pm 
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Well I've reached the end of my 'long' (by CRD standards) streak of good luck with my CRD. In the past 3 years the only major work I've had to do was a new passenger side CV and a new torque converter. I've had many small coolant leaks during this time but they always ended up being a busted clamp, leaky plastic radiator or a thermostat housing leak. This Summer at approx 149K miles a new coolant leak started and it was worse than before, and more troubling, no external signs of leakage. :banghead: This weekend I removed the glow plugs and turned her over, and sure enough, coolant came blowing out the front cylinder. :furious:

I have new turbo, head, ARPs and several other things that I've been waiting to install (on another Jeep!!), so my question is this: what has been the normal failure mode for this problem and is there any need to touch the bottom of the engine if it appears the problem was limited to the head? How often has the head been cracked vs just leaky head gasket and crappy head bolts?

Also it's been about 50K miles and 5? years since the timing belt change, should I do that at the same time? I'm only driving 10K miles per year.

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#1 2006 Silver CRD Limited, flipped spare tire, ASFIR skids, GDE TCM & Ecotune, blue SAMCOs, 5V glow plugs, Rotella T6, intank fuel pump, Gen2 fuel head, new crank sensor, JBA 2.5 in silver package, Provent and ARB bumper
#2 2006 Metallic Green Limited; currently DOA
#3 2005 Silver project; currently not running...don't judge me


Last edited by CGman on Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: End of my good luck
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:11 am 
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Its gonna be hard to know if its just the head gasket or a cracked head.
All I can do is share my experience.

You already know the head is coming off.
First, remove the turbo and exhaust manifold. Look for evidence of water in the exhaust.
Remove the timing belt components and inner timing cover.
Remove the valve cover with the camshafts. (all valves are closed at this point)
Then reconnect any coolant hoses you may have removed, top off with water, and pressure test the cooling system to 20 psi and hold it there.
Wait about an hour, then look for water dripping out the exhaust ports and try to look down into the intake ports to see if water is pooling in there.

For me, it was the water dripping out the exhaust ports that confirmed a cracked head.

Yes, replace the timing belt and tensioner.
Anything else is entirely up to you.

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 Post subject: Re: End of my good luck
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:32 pm 
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With the mileage, it is likely the usual head bolt leaking that has progressed into the head gasket leak. At this point the gasket is compromised, a machine shop can pressure test the head properly however.

The bottom end is probably fine, be sure to replace the gasket with the two-hole version and the copper spray sealer on both sides and the deck / underside of the head. You WILL need to replace the belt as it has to be removed to do any of this work, and the belt should be replaced when removed. As for the age however, you are close to the point where it should be replacing it anyway - 100k miles or 6 years. DO REPLACE THE VALVES and lap them in before putting the new head (even if the same one) back on the engine, as that is a major design issue that risks the engine in the future. The added cost is not that much additional, all you need are the valves.

Sounds like you are capable of the work yourself, but if you do decide that you need some assistance, I'm the traveling CRD tech and would be happy to discuss working on your engine. The upside is the experience of over 110 engines that I bring, and the speed that your CRD would be returned to service - only 2 days of downtime. LMK if you are interested, the email button below works better than the PM system on this board.

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 Post subject: Re: End of my good luck
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2020 2:20 pm 
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Agree Replace at least the Timing Belt and tensioner. Also agree most likely the head bolts stretching causing head gasket leak but still could be cracked head. Personally I would go ahead and do the whole TB kit now. Replace the Exhaust valves as geordi suggested.

Yes the bottom end is very likely fine. However getting coolant into the oil can affect any Teflon coated bearings and its fairly common to have Teflon coated main bearings. I dont know if the main bearings in the CRD are coated or not. Just to be safe and since you have the parts etc already, I would stop driving it and change the oil now and not run again till work done. Maybe somebody knows if the internal bearings for the CRD are Teflon coated or not.

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05 Blu LIM, OME GDE Tbo, wk II 245/75/17, KC Lights, bull bar, 195K H TC
05 Blu Lim, Dayton, GDE HT, 255/75/18 , 210K , H TC
06 Bla Lim, GDE Eco, Destination AT 245/75/17, 151K, H TC
06 D Khaki Lim 126K wkII Eur TC
05 D khaki Lim 145k refurbishing
All CRDS: Fumoto, Lift , Fan Shroud mod, fuel head Gen II, SAMCOS,self TB, 2 Mic filt, Hayden


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 Post subject: Re: End of my good luck
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2020 2:31 pm 
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I've had a few of these dump like a gallon of coolant in the oil, and they survived just fine. Usually it's just the HG, head cracks are really rare, but if it got hot...

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Mech fan, VH & AC delete


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 Post subject: Re: End of my good luck
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2020 2:49 pm 
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Thanks for all the advice guys. Looks like my biggest concern right now is getting the coolant out ( I had to buy a bottle of 'universal' coolant when I ran low out in the boonies) so I'm running a mix right now. Should I flush before I take everything apart or just drain? It's currently setting with all the intake piping off and the glow plugs removed. Oil looks good, it's just starting to darken with 3000 miles on it.

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#1 2006 Silver CRD Limited, flipped spare tire, ASFIR skids, GDE TCM & Ecotune, blue SAMCOs, 5V glow plugs, Rotella T6, intank fuel pump, Gen2 fuel head, new crank sensor, JBA 2.5 in silver package, Provent and ARB bumper
#2 2006 Metallic Green Limited; currently DOA
#3 2005 Silver project; currently not running...don't judge me


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 Post subject: Re: End of my good luck
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2020 2:54 pm 
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I think just draining is OK now and flush when repaired. The coolant is going to drain from head etc when you remove it anyway. I would definitely pressure test the head though. The cracks can be under valves and not visible to normal inspection.

_________________
05 Blu LIM, OME GDE Tbo, wk II 245/75/17, KC Lights, bull bar, 195K H TC
05 Blu Lim, Dayton, GDE HT, 255/75/18 , 210K , H TC
06 Bla Lim, GDE Eco, Destination AT 245/75/17, 151K, H TC
06 D Khaki Lim 126K wkII Eur TC
05 D khaki Lim 145k refurbishing
All CRDS: Fumoto, Lift , Fan Shroud mod, fuel head Gen II, SAMCOS,self TB, 2 Mic filt, Hayden


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 Post subject: Re: End of my good luck
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:06 am 
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geordi wrote:
...The bottom end is probably fine, be sure to replace the gasket with the two-hole version and the copper spray sealer on both sides and the deck / underside of the head. ...


I thought you were supposed to match the new head gasket to the one you removed? Why do you recommend using the two hole automatically?

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2005 Liberty CRD, with 135,XXX miles. Rockers, exhaust valves, Provent, EGR block & butterfly delete & V6 air box at 100K

1998 XJ 4.0L, stock with 130,XXX miles

First Jeep: 1962 Willys CJ-3B


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 Post subject: Re: End of my good luck
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 12:05 pm 
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krb wrote:
I thought you were supposed to match the new head gasket to the one you removed? Why do you recommend using the two hole automatically?

Head Gasket thickness selection is based solely on the measured top dead center piston protrusion versus piston liner position.
From the Jeep 2.8 CRD Factory Service Manual on Head Gasket Selection wrote:
Section 9 - page 220, 2.8L COMMON RAIL DIESEL ENGINE KJ
If one or more liners have been replaced the liner protrusion must be measured to determine the proper head gasket selection.
If the liners are not removed, use the same thickness head gasket that was removed.

KJ 2.8L COMMON RAIL DIESEL ENGINE Section 9 - Page 195
If the liners were removed:
(6) Establish the thickness of the steel gasket by averaging the four piston protrusion readings.


Image
Image

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 Post subject: Re: End of my good luck
PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 10:49 pm 
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Finally got the engine apart with a few 'problem' areas dealt with...pictures coming up soon.

Thank heavens I had #1 son who works on VW diesels for a living to help me...his tools and experience helped immensely!

I also can't believe the amount of stuff we had to take off the engine, luckily I was able to bag and label things as he removed them from the engine. We 'lost' several pieces of hardware to the skid plate black hole and I think we only broke one thing...a plastic fitting on the thermostat if I remember correctly. Any idea if those can be removed and replaced?

All the head bolts were at 120 ft*lbs or higher...only #2 bolt was looser than the rest. (as measured by my non-digital, 10+ year old torque wrench)

EGR looks like it's still going to be a pain to deal with even with the head off!

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#1 2006 Silver CRD Limited, flipped spare tire, ASFIR skids, GDE TCM & Ecotune, blue SAMCOs, 5V glow plugs, Rotella T6, intank fuel pump, Gen2 fuel head, new crank sensor, JBA 2.5 in silver package, Provent and ARB bumper
#2 2006 Metallic Green Limited; currently DOA
#3 2005 Silver project; currently not running...don't judge me


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 Post subject: Re: End of my good luck
PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 11:49 pm 
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Image

Engine block - looking aft
Cylinder #1 had coolant in it, no other signs of problems pre-teardown

Image

Closeup of Cylinder #1

Image

Looking at bottom side of head gasket - cylinder one to the left

Image

Looking at the top side of the head gasket - cylinder one to the left

Image

Looking at the bottom of the head - cylinder one to the left




Any thoughts? All head bolts were 120 Ft*lbs or more when removed. Only other coolant problem was thermostat bolts kept getting loose which caused several coolant leaks on the exhaust side of cylinder #1 area where thermostat sits.

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#1 2006 Silver CRD Limited, flipped spare tire, ASFIR skids, GDE TCM & Ecotune, blue SAMCOs, 5V glow plugs, Rotella T6, intank fuel pump, Gen2 fuel head, new crank sensor, JBA 2.5 in silver package, Provent and ARB bumper
#2 2006 Metallic Green Limited; currently DOA
#3 2005 Silver project; currently not running...don't judge me


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 Post subject: Re: End of my good luck
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:53 am 
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Have head pressure tested for cracks/leaks. Have it checked for being warped.
Has this engine ever been run hot?
You can simply get rid of the entire EGR system totally using the EGR delete kit you ordered.
Tap and plug the end of the exhaust manifold that goes to the EGR valve while you got it off. Use a standard SS pipe plug after you tap it. Put HT sealer on threads.
Remove the EGR cooler fitting out of the center of the head and plug it. Then remove all the EGR junk for good.
Be sure and clean all the carbon gunk out of the intake while you got it off.

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 Post subject: Re: End of my good luck
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:21 am 
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Looks like what I'd expect to see, the coolant could have gotten in there when you lifted the head, so that's not really illuminating.

Definitely get a machine shop to pressure test for you, and go with the two-hole gasket to ensure the best seal. There will NOT be any change to engine compression or performance, but the gasket will seal properly and there will be zero chance that the liner lip can contact the head. That protrusion measurement stuff makes no sense at all on these engines b/c the pistons don't clear the block when they are rotated by hand, and you don't WANT them to - Although according to the book, the liner IS supposed to be mounted above the deck rather than at zero, and I have yet to find one that is. So there are definitely issues either with the factory install or the book.... I'd go with the install since we know that works.

Definitely replace the valves too while you have it apart, and have fun putting it back together with your son - it's a long job even after doing as many as I've done, but not technically "hard" and VW experience is the closest comparison engine so you are in good hands.

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TRAVELING CRD TECH. I come to you!
Need help? Just ask! I've taken it apart more than most.
Email jeep [at] maincomputer [dot] com - BOARD MESSAGING IS BROKEN
Over 125 CRDs currently driving with my timing belt, rockers, or ARP Studs.
Bad noises = REALLY bad things.


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 Post subject: Re: End of my good luck
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:11 pm 
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Guys, do not spray copper sealer on MLS head gaskets. Copper sealer is for metal head gaskets. MLS gaskets have a rubber (usually Viton) outer layer on both sides... this is what creates the seal. Adding a secondary sealant will interfere with the gasket's ability to conduct heat properly. MLS head gaskets should always go on dry. I'm sure the FSM calls attention to this... both deck and head must be flat and dry for a proper seal. Threads on the block must be dry - non-TTY bolts require a thin film of oil, but TTY bolts like in the CRD must go in dry to prevent over-torquing.


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 Post subject: Re: End of my good luck
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:54 pm 
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FSM says it is a multi-layered steel head gasket.
As to head gasket thickness selection, please study the facts, there is a reason for providing different thickness head gaskets. A one size fits all may be doable, but it may not be the best choice based on the factory recommendations and recommendations by other parts suppliers:
From IDParts web page: wrote:
Cylinder Head Gasket Kit for the Jeep Liberty CRD. It is important that the correct cylinder head gasket size is chosen. The gasket size is stamped into a tab that is on the intake side of the engine between cylinders 2 and 3. Look for a tab that has a part number stamping on it. On the rear-ward end of the tab may be some circular holes. The tab can have no holes, 1 hole or two holes. The sizes are as follows:
No Holes - 1.32mm Thickness
1 Hole - 1.42 mm Thickness
2 Holes - 1.52 mm Thickness

Head Gasket thickness selection is based solely on the measured top dead center piston protrusion versus piston liner position which can affect piston to valve clearance when the piston is at TDC and the valves are in a transitioning condition.
From the Jeep 2.8 CRD Factory Service Manual on Head Gasket Selection wrote:
Section 9 - page 220, 2.8L COMMON RAIL DIESEL ENGINE KJ
If one or more liners have been replaced the liner protrusion must be measured to determine the proper head gasket selection.
If the liners are not removed, use the same thickness head gasket that was removed.

If one or more of the liners were removed/replaced: See KJ 2.8L COMMON RAIL DIESEL ENGINE Section 9 - Page 195
(6) Establish the thickness of the steel gasket by averaging the four piston protrusion readings.

See the above previous post for the thickness selection charts:> viewtopic.php?p=945580#p945580

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 Post subject: Re: End of my good luck
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:08 pm 
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Which FSM are you reading? The '05 manual says:

NOTE: If cylinder liner(s) have not been removed,
the same thickness head gasket that was removed
can be used.

(1) Clean and inspect gasket mating surfaces.
(2) Position correct head gasket on engine block.
(3) Place cylinder head on engine block.

CAUTION: New cylinder head bolts must be used.
Do Not lubracate new cylinder head bolts. They
already are coated with an anti scuff treatment.

(4) Tighten cylinder head bolts following procedure
below.


(Yes, it says LUBRACATE - lol!)

The '06 FSM says:

NOTE: If cylinder liner(s) have not been removed, the same thickness head gasket that was removed can be
used.

1. Clean and inspect gasket mating surfaces.
2. Position correct head gasket on engine block.
3. Place cylinder head on engine block.

CAUTION: New cylinder head bolts must be used. Do Not lubricate new cylinder head bolts. They already
are coated with an anti scuff treatment.

4. Tighten cylinder head bolts following procedure below.

(they fixed the typo! :D )

I would definitely not go offroad with head gaskets - the specific thickness is there to make up for fine machining differences of the head. With the tolerances involved in a high-compression diesel engine, there isn't room for error. I'm sure you can substitute a 2-hole for 1-hole, but there will be a slight drop in compression as a result. Probably nothing more than age has taken away. :) Going the other way could be catastrophic!


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 Post subject: Re: End of my good luck
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:04 pm 
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My bad, you are correct, got on wrong section of the FSM somehow. :banghead:
CAUTION: New cylinder head bolts must be used. Do Not lubricate new cylinder head bolts. They already
are coated with an anti scuff treatment.
Updated the post.

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Ironman Springs/Bilstein/Shocks
Yeti StgIV Hot Tune
Week's BatteryTray
No FCV/EGR
Samcos/ProVent
SunCoast/Transgo
Carter Intank-pmp
2mic.Sec.Fuel Filter
Flowmaster/NO CAT
V6Airbox/noVH
GM11 Bld.fan/HDClutch
IronrockArms/wwdieselMount

98 Dodge Cummins 24 Valve


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 Post subject: Re: End of my good luck
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:13 pm 
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I have done that myself more times than I can count. The layout of the manual is not terribly user friendly, often requiring the reader to find other sections or jumping around in its own narrative. I read the "structural collar" section like 20 times before I finally, fully understood it. :D

Cleaning the head bolt bores is a tedious job on any engine, especially after a blown head gasket. If it's out, you can put it on a stand and work upside down. If not, a thread chaser (NOT a tap - do NOT use a tap!), brake cleaner, and compressed air are your friend. But clean dry threads, new bolts, and the correct, quality gasket will reward you with another decade or two of trouble-free motoring. (Says the guy who is praying for just that himself ;) )

Eh, while I'm at it: What I learned putting my engine back together is that there really isn't anything weird going on here. The whole two-part head is a little strange, but the concepts in play are pretty universal and applicable to most engines. I suppose if you think about it, an Italian motor powered by German electronics installed in an American vehicle really reinforces the "Lego" mentality here... Engineers did the thing they do best, and outsourced other components to other parties. When my engine was in pieces it was a lot to take in, but putting it back together you get to understand how it all works together. Probably the worst thing about working on a Liberty CRD is reading the FSM! Lubracate, ffs!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: End of my good luck - Updated
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:32 pm 
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Just a quick update as I get everything slowly put back together.

1. I used a 'new' refurb head with ARPs and same gasket as removed - no copper spray.

2. Torquing the ARPs was not fun and neither was the Camshaft gear bolts!

3. Took old head to a trusted machine shop and they pressure tested, decked, installed new exhaust valves and all new valve guides for $350 labor.

4. So far the following parts have been broke during tear down and reassembly - small plastic elbow on thermostat housing (resulting in new assy) $120, fuel injector return line broke at third plastic fitting (resulting in new fuel return line assy) $55, stripped turbo oil return line bolt (resulting 3 days of cursing and 5 five years off my life, but right now just using a longer bolt that is holding onto good threads in turbo - $0.50. Also missed the water sensor gasket in the fuel filter resulting in several cups worth of fuel spilled and forgot to tighten the block mounted turbo oil feed line nut - resulting in about a quart of oil all over my skid plate and garage floor.

5. We decided to do a quick start check without all the engine items installed just to check the timing and make sure the fuel system was working - after priming the fuel system several times with the intank pump it took about 15 seconds of cranking to get it started. Ran it for about 5 seconds two different times and it sounds normal.

6. Now needs front of engine items and accessories reinstalled, intake and intercooler tubing reinstalled and coolant system reinstalled and leak tested.

7. Biggest pain so far has been turbo reinstall and getting the intake/camshafts back onto the head without disturbing the rocker/lifters. This took two people because we still had the wiring harness going across the top of the engine so we had to carefully maneuver the intake under the wiring but still keep it high enough that it didn't disturb the rocker/lifters....it took about three tries to get it right.

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#1 2006 Silver CRD Limited, flipped spare tire, ASFIR skids, GDE TCM & Ecotune, blue SAMCOs, 5V glow plugs, Rotella T6, intank fuel pump, Gen2 fuel head, new crank sensor, JBA 2.5 in silver package, Provent and ARB bumper
#2 2006 Metallic Green Limited; currently DOA
#3 2005 Silver project; currently not running...don't judge me


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 Post subject: Re: End of my good luck
PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 6:32 am 
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Thanks for the update!

Did you have the timing cover on for the test run? My timing mark moved a tad after my test start.

You're getting there. Now's the "easy" part - as long as you remember where everything goes...

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2005 Liberty CRD, with 135,XXX miles. Rockers, exhaust valves, Provent, EGR block & butterfly delete & V6 air box at 100K

1998 XJ 4.0L, stock with 130,XXX miles

First Jeep: 1962 Willys CJ-3B


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