Engine seemed to run on like 2 cylinders

papaindigo · **Posted:** Thu Feb 20, 2014 6:22 pm

Not sure I have a problem but want other minds on the symptoms:
1. ambient temp 75F plus
2. vehicle had been sitting for like a week
3. cranked up and ran just fine, shifted gears with no issues
4. drove like 5 miles and had reached normal operating temp
5. 1/2 tank of fuel
6. stopped for flagmen at a construction site; road was not dead flat but nearly so
7. shifted into Park and shut engine done.
8. restarted ca. 1 minute later and engine ran like the "s" word. Lots of shaking, modestly noisey, no power but vehicle would move. Shifted into neutral and keyed off back on a couple of times with no improvement
9. limped 3/4 mile into parking lot; shut down; inspected engine compartment; only oddity was coolant level was ca. 1/2" below midline after having been at the midline for a few drives after coolant refill. Popped radiator cap and coolant level rose to midline with no significant pressure release when opened cap and no fluid in side tank (Note - I've been home for ca. 2.5hrs now and just checked coolant level and it's still ca. 1/2" down - must recheck in AM and monitor as it's possible the system "passed" an air bubble which is why it's low).
10. no fluids on top of engine or on ground under engine. Primer bulb solid as a rock although I suppose the system could have "passed" a clot of air in the fuel
11. restarted after ca. 2-3 minutes in parking lot. Vehicle started and ran fine for the rest of the errands (ca. 15 miles). No CEL and not stored codes per GDE tool other than the unplugged viscous heater relay.
12. "recent" service - timing and serpentine belts done ca. 650 miles ago in my presence and done right. Antifreeze (Xerex G-05) done ca. 200 miles ago. Total vehicle miles 50,014
13. no smoke

Thoughts? I do recall one brief episode coming back from the coast a couple of years back when driving down the road at 65mph it acted the same way if I recall correctly but the problem went away. All I can guess is limp mode for unknown reason.

flman · **Posted:** Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:25 pm

No CEL? Fuel problem? I guess if it is intermittent you will have to keep an eye on in.

Hexus · **Posted:** Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:50 pm

Why did you shut it down? Not that it should matter in your case, just seems rather odd to me, unless you are just trying to conserve fuel, it usually takes more to start it than it does to let it idle for 5 minutes, and it's rougher on the engine.

Sounds like air in fuel, the only reason air in your coolant would cause the engine to run like crap is if you had a bubble pretty much right at your temperature sensor when you restarted it.

Check with your GDE scanner to see if there are any stored faults, like misfire on a cylinder, etc.

If it doesn't come back, I wouldn't concern myself too much with it, mine has done that twice now for no good reason and everything was fine. I would look to the fuel filter first though if it wasn't changed with your service.

Just my thoughts.

thermorex · **Posted:** Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:55 pm

Every now and then I get some "weird" behavior like yours, couple times I got the missfire for #2 injector which turned out it had a bad coupling sealing rubber (the orange one) in the electric connector. After removing the orange rubber, I got no codes and no issues, but haven't driven the jeep a lot either. May be some computer bug, I'm not sure to be honest what else can be in your case... If that happens, try turning the ignition off then start the engine again. In my case, the "gremlins" went away once I unplugged and re-plug the pressure regulator electric connector, the one on the end of the rail, turning off then restarting the engine did not help. If it's a part that starts acting up, it will get worse in time, hopefully it's not your case though... Sorry, can't be more helpful than this.

geordi · **Posted:** Fri Feb 21, 2014 2:20 am

The running rough was something my CRD did too. Exactly the way you describe it. Fuel filter change fixed it, but it did take a few minutes to smooth out with the fresh filter.

Only thing I could point to, was maybe it got a slug of something it didn't like the flavor of that made it past the filter. When it was stumbling and running rough, it wouldn't accelerate over 10-15mph. The symptoms happened, I had to pull over b/c of the inability to keep driving (but the engine did not stall) and I called in about getting a filter to the parts place. They had to order it. By the time the call was over, the engine had smoothed out.

The next day going to get the filter, it ran perfect all the way to the store (15 miles) and did it again about a mile from the store. Still stumbling in the parking lot after... Cleared up about 2 minutes later, didn't return again.

flman · **Posted:** Fri Feb 21, 2014 7:46 am

geordi wrote:

The running rough was something my CRD did too. Exactly the way you describe it. Fuel filter change fixed it, but it did take a few minutes to smooth out with the fresh filter.

Only thing I could point to, was maybe it got a slug of something it didn't like the flavor of that made it past the filter. When it was stumbling and running rough, it wouldn't accelerate over 10-15mph. The symptoms happened, I had to pull over b/c of the inability to keep driving (but the engine did not stall) and I called in about getting a filter to the parts place. They had to order it. By the time the call was over, the engine had smoothed out.

The next day going to get the filter, it ran perfect all the way to the store (15 miles) and did it again about a mile from the store. Still stumbling in the parking lot after... Cleared up about 2 minutes later, didn't return again.

How true that is, the first thing I do when I get a hiccup is change the fuel filter and no more problems. Now that I have inline fuel pumps on both of the Jeeps, I will see if I can make it 10K?

thermorex · **Posted:** Fri Feb 21, 2014 9:11 am

I think we all should consider a pre-filter.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Fri Feb 21, 2014 12:00 pm

Thanks all.

As originally noted no CEL and no stored codes per the GDE code reader.

I do note my fuel filter has been in use since 2009 for about 20,000 miles. My bad as it was on my to do list to change about 2,000 miles ago and I flat overlooked doing that. I'll get that done today or tomorrow after things dry out. I think I may put this on the list to do every other oil change.

Geordi's description is quite close to what I experienced although I don't know if it would have cleared up had I just kept running as opposed to pulling into the parking lot, shutting down for a few minutes, and restarting.

I've got a Facet pump on the shelf so I guess I'll go ahead and bit bullet and install that soon along with one of the glass inline pre-filters.

I'm not "happy" with the coolant level and will have to keep an eye on that for the next tank or 2 of fuel. I did crank up on a dead cold engine just now and ran at idle for 30 seconds and had zero pressure when I opened the radiator/coolant tank cap.

geordi · **Posted:** Fri Feb 21, 2014 12:47 pm

It may take some time for any bubbles to run out from the coolant system, this is normal to what I know about this design. At least it is just a little low, and not continually dropping - that suggests that the difference may have been from what was drained to what was replaced, since we used fresh on yours.

20,000 miles on a fuel filter? I think we found the problem and the winner of the mileage-on-a-filter challenge! I very rarely get more than 12k out of one, although I will admit that the TDI filter has given me a very good service life.

Having said that, I've probably jinxed it and it will plug in the next 50 miles. :banghead:

joelukex4 · **Joined:** Thu Sep 29, 2011 4:54 pm **Posts:** 386

geordi wrote:

20,000 miles on a fuel filter? I think we found the problem and the winner of the mileage-on-a-filter challenge! I very rarely get more than 12k out of one, although I will admit that the TDI filter has given me a very good service life.

I purchased my CRD with 38K on the odometer. The records show a fuel filter change at 23K. If I assume that the dealer changed it when I bought it at 38K and I now have 72K on the liberty, I have 34000 miles minimum on the fuel filter. Never had a problem, use good diesel and add fuel conditioners. My fuel tanks barely last a week before re-fueling which may help.

geordi · **Posted:** Fri Feb 21, 2014 1:47 pm

I've never known diesel to go bad, my generator sits for months on end with the same fuel - or I'll pump it out into my car if I need a fill. I guess some supplies are just cleaner than others.

I'll admit that I fill up fairly often too - most people seem to fill their TDI about once or twice a month... I'm filling up twice a WEEK usually!

dirtmover · **Posted:** Fri Feb 21, 2014 2:08 pm

geordi wrote:

20,000 miles on a fuel filter? I think we found the problem and the winner of the mileage-on-a-filter challenge! I very rarely get more than 12k out of one...

My current one is at about 50,000 miles. IMO, breaching a working fuel system for any reason is asking for issues although admittedly it's probably due now.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Fri Feb 21, 2014 2:12 pm

Well diesel can certainly go bad, it does grow algae quite well, or one can get a bad tank, stoutdog has been plagued with an odd occasional vibration/stutter/slight fluctuation in rpm when stopping that appears to have gone away since he recently filled up at a Shell station that sells lots of diesel vs the previous fill at an out of the way USA station. Not to mention I last filled up on 11/7/2013 and still have 1/2 a tank. Maybe I need to start adding DieselKleen or some such at every fill-up.

I still plan to change my fuel filter tomorrow and may cut it open to see what the insides look like.

joelukex4 · **Joined:** Thu Sep 29, 2011 4:54 pm **Posts:** 386

Wow that tank is 3 1/2 months old. Even gas will start going bad in that timeframe without some Sta-bil in it.

This last month is the longest I had the same diesel in my tank. We didn't use the vehicle because it was below 0 for a three week timeframe. I do however treat the tank. It is easy for me because the company I work for produces diesel additives.

thermorex · **Posted:** Fri Feb 21, 2014 3:57 pm

Diesel doesn't go bad as gasoline, and gasoline goes bad due to ethanol (papaindigo was the first to correct me :p) in it. I remember in early 90s I got a car that sat for at least 5 years, gasoline in it was as good as new. Back then they didn't use methanol and all this global warming nonsense. My generator runs on 2 year old diesel perfectly fine, but I am sure the injector is an old school and not that fancy crd piezoelectric. Still, there are some light deposits in diesel that can affect the filter, even condensation due to a not filled up tank. There is a reason it is recommended to go as much as possible with filled fuel tanks especially in the winter.

joelukex4 · **Joined:** Thu Sep 29, 2011 4:54 pm **Posts:** 386

First, Gasoline today uses ethanol as an oxygen enhancer not methanol. Methanol would eat up the fuel system. MTBE used to be used in premium gasoline but has been outlawed and way back when it was tetraethyl lead. Regular unleaded or current oxygenated fuel go bad in the presence of oxygen. The hydrocarbons oxidize to gums & varnish deposits. The ethanol in the fuel attracts moisture which causes sludge.

Diesel can go bad by bacterial growth. Hydrotreating diesel to remove sulfur also destroys antioxidants which prevent peroxide formations which degrades diesel. Once it starts to oxidize sludge begins to form which will clog filters. The average diesel fuel, stored in standard conditions is out of specification after six months; and has degraded 26 per cent after only 28 days in storage. It will still run, as a diesel will burn most anything. It may not run well and will probably clog filters quicker. Old diesels as you stated have mechanical injectors and the filters in a diesel generator may not be a fine as in the CRD.

thermorex · **Posted:** Tue Feb 25, 2014 12:31 am

You made me curious now to see how bad the 2 years diesel in the generator degraded. I'll look into who does such an analysis. I also corrected the methanol mention, you are correct.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Tue Feb 25, 2014 3:37 pm

Just to get back on point. I changed out my fuel filter today and the fuel that came out of it was just fine, clear as diesel normally is. I did not try to cut it open but did poke into the element a bit with a dental pick and it looks like normal filter element, yellowish not black. I added some diesel kleen to the tank and will see how things do. I'm still of the opinion that the most likely obvious cause would be a slug of air but who knows. I'll add that facet pump maybe this weekend.

Also brought my coolant level back to normal. Geordi is right that it should drop after a refill as the air is purged but I swear that I overfilled a bit with that in mind; of course maybe I did not or maybe there was a bit more air than the last time I did coolant. In any case it is likely that I had not done enough hot/cool cycles to purge all the air, takes 3 or 4.

joelukex4 · **Joined:** Thu Sep 29, 2011 4:54 pm **Posts:** 386

As Hexus said earlier "why did you shut it down." It is a diesel, I never shut mine down unless I am at my destination. I always idle at the diesel pump or waiting for someone, whatever & whenever.

Anyway I once got on the interstate and it would not accelerate, ran like crap. I thought it was going to come apart. Did not want to shut it off on the interstate and got off at the next exit which was only a 1/4 mile away. I coasted into the gas station, turned it off and took a look under the hood. Nothing looked like it needed attention so I started it back up and it idled fine. The wife and I proceeded on our 200 mile trip with no issue. Chalked it up to a brain fart in the ECU. Never had an issue since. My brother had this issue with his '06 CRD Sport once or twice also. I read somewhere that this happens on occasion. I will say that this however was before we got our GDE tunes. Don't know if it was in the programming that sent it into limp home mode.

geordi · **Posted:** Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:23 pm

Limp home is a lot different from running-like-crap-and-vibrating-rocking-and-chugging operation.

To paraphrase the movie Apollo 13, "Well, they are talking about bangs and shimmies, doesn't sound like programming to me."

Engine seemed to run on like 2 cylinders

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