Starter issue / problem / question

Gypsy62 · **Posted:** Sat Feb 06, 2021 1:21 am

My starter left me stranded in the rain last week. I resorted to the good ol' "trigger-the-remote-starter-pistol-switch*-while-sledging-on-the-solenoid" trick. On the 3rd slam sparks flew and she fired up (ignition switch "on" during sledge-fest).

Once home, I discovered that the battery pos-post on my old solenoid had play in it. I had the entire starter/solenoid rebuilt at a local shop here in Ensenada ($75).
However, in the morning it cranks notably slowly before starting. A few facts:
- Alternator @ >14vdc (=Supply voltage A-OK)
- 2 batteries wired in parallel @ >1900CCA's, 12.7vdc at rest (=batteries A-OK)
- New 1/0 pos/neg cable & lugs, confirmed no voltage loss at starter (=cables&connectors A-OK)

I've probably replaced 20-30 starters myself with new or rebuilt. All performed okay except one which died within days (Ford 6.9). However, its symptom was clicking but not cranking, not slow cranking.

Is there a planet I haven't visited where it is normal for a new/rebuilt starter to lag when cranking?
Although worse in the AM, it never cranks with the same instant enthusiasm of its mitsubishi predecessor.

IF there is cause for concern then I would rather buy a reliable new unit ($200?), soak the $75 and keep the sluggish rebuild as a road-trip reserve back-up.

Thanks!

*Actually, the remote switch's 'pistol' died so I cut-off & stripped it's lead wires, keeping only the gator-clip ends to jump the solenoid. Then I twisted the stripped wires together and started banging. After it started, the still-engaged starter whined until I ripped the twisted wires apart :ROTFL:

All is fair if it gets you home, no?

Keys: starter damaged failing failed broken broke

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sat Feb 06, 2021 1:52 am

Well it certainly sounds like you got plenty of amps available! :lol:

Assuming all connections are good, and all grounds are good. (from chassis to engine block)
Have you measured how many amps the starter motor is actually pulling when it seems to spin slow?

The starter motor could be pulling some very high current and pulling the battery voltage down too low which would result in a slower starter motor speed.
Slow cranking speed and high current draw typically could indicate worn bearings or bushings inside the starter housing.
Worn bushing can result in an "off-center" armature operation which would result in an imbalance of the magnetic fields in the motor and poor performance.

As starter motor windings age from use and heat, the stator and rotor windings can also become more resistive to current flow resulting in slower rotor speed and higher amp draw.
Just some random thoughts,

Gypsy62 · **Posted:** Sat Feb 06, 2021 12:02 pm

Thanks for the techsplanation!
It sounds like you, also, have never visited a planet where slow-cranking is considered acceptable behavior from a NEW/REBUILT starter.

I may have this rebuilt unit inspected at a larger local elec. shop to determine if it was a BS rebuild. With evidence, I could pressure the first shop to refund (MX rules...).

I don't own an ammeter capable above 10amps. Good suggestion, though. Anyone know the amp spec on these starters?

FWIW, I did perform voltage tests at the solenoid pos terminal & nearby [stock] block ground:
- @ Pre-crank @ 12.7vdc. Same as battery posts = no loss from bad wires/connectors (all new, but worth vindicating)
- @ Cranking @ 11.3vdc-ish (a test which could have been performed at battery posts, under-hood instead of under-jeep)
- @ Start; very briefly at 12.3vdc-ish, then quickly resting at 14.1vdc as alternator kicks-in.

So, looks like I'm buying a new unit from one of the majors
[= guaranteed]. PN's:
Mitsubishi m2t88372zckd (or, m2t88372, m2t88372zc)
IDparts($225+$40core)Amazon($220dlvrd) ebay($149dlvrd ) NAPA PN: RAY 2446911($194+60core).

Thanks

Billybob · **Posted:** Sun Feb 07, 2021 10:43 am

The CRD starter will pull more than 500 Amps to turn the engine over!
So you would need a DC Clamp-on Ammeter to measure it...not cheap.

Sounds like the re-built Starter assembly is the culprit but you can try take a thick cable such as the Jumper Cable pair used to jump the battery. Clamp one end of this clamp to the Negative Post of the battery and the other end gets clamped to the Starter Motor Casing.

If the engine turns over nicely then your battery to chassis/engine grounding is not good! :wink:

Mountainman · **Posted:** Sun Feb 07, 2021 1:47 pm

Like Bob said, I've seen this before, and I had put the battery ground wire on the wrong side of a rubber motor mount, effectively isolating the starter from ground, mostly anyhow.
I was hunting around with my fluke when I measured from the engine to chassis, ah ha! 10 ohms...
Moved the ground, started perfectly.

Gypsy62 · **Posted:** Mon Feb 08, 2021 6:06 pm

Good info, but I trust my grounds:
- Stacked the 2 grounds on the stock block ground-point, located right in front of the starter. Cleaned and coated the block ground-area (coated it in eletro-salsa/wiring compound), with 2 new 1/0 ground cables routing directly to the 2 batteries neg posts (both cleaned/coated).
- Still slow-cranks at first morning-start, then cranks a bit quicker during day-driving. I'm heading to Reno soon (from Baja), so I am also concerned how it will crank after parked overnite in 0 degrees.

Today, I was wondering where the local [lame] rebuild shop could have sourced the new guts for the rebuild. If these starters are unique only to the 2.8 CRD, then I don't get where they could have obtained the correct parts; CRD's were never sold in MX therefore don't even show up as a Liberty engine option on parts stores' database (including MX Azone/NAPA, etc).

I am not a starter-rebuild tech, so I have zero clue how universal the brushes/windings/magnets etc may be.
Clearly, a starter doesn't involve complex/intricate engineering, but the replacement parts would still have to reasonably match the original guts, no?
Could this wanker have packed the starter/solenoid case with "close 'nuff" components?
Thanks

Edit- I was able to snug the bolts holding the ground cable onto the new neg terminal [Blue Circle]; the morning shall tell if that had an impact on slow-cranking.
I already added an additional chassis ground [Black Circle] from the relocated yellow-top starting battery's side-terminal; it's top neg post terminal routes directly to stock block-ground near starter. Pos side-terminal [red circle] reserved for line to battery isolator for future transition from parallel to starter/accessory 2-battery layout:

thesameguy · **Joined:** Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:24 pm **Posts:** 652

Starters from a given manufacturer typically come in generations, with common components shared across a variety of overall packages. In the same way a given alternator frame might come in 90, 120, or 150 amp versions, I'll bet winding etc. configurations on a starter are chosen for a specific application. I would suspect that it's possible for someone to do something like stuff a diesel starter with guts from a gas engine or vice versa. They fit, they just aren't correctly optimized.

Gypsy62 · **Posted:** Wed Feb 10, 2021 2:46 pm

THE STARTER BODY FROM A 7.3 POWERSTROKE FITS THE STARTER HEAD OF THE 2.8 CRD:

Anybody already know that/Other post(s)?
If not, I'll compose a separate basic post to potentially sticky.

Anyway, took the bunk rebuild to the best electrical component rebuilder in Ensenada, "REFORMEX", and had them evaluate the rebuild: ONLY new part was the solenoid :evil:

! I had them provide the old guts and a printed letter confirming that the parts weren't replaced by the small & sleazy rebuild shop.
[If in Ensenada, Baja, and you require any elec. rebuilds use REFORMEX: AVOID "Gonzalez" autoelectrico in Porticos near Ave Reforma: liars & thieves]. Update: confronted with written evidence, gonzalez refunded 1k of 1500peso(USD$75) payment. In Mexico, that qualifies as an unmitigated victory.

When I asked Reformex if they could do a proper rebuild, the manager asked if there was an extra 2" of space aft for a more powerful starter. Unsure, I decided to risk it: total cost 1900pesos/$95.

At pickup (but before install confirmation), I told them that the "strange" jeep forum may appreciate knowing what vehicle the larger starter body was from: 7.3 Ford Powerstroke!

Just installed: There's a whopping 1/16" of surplus space between the starter case & oil dipstick. Actually, the stick already has a formed slight curvature precisely where the starter abutts; maybe the london taxi (2.8 CRD) starters are larger than jeep's?

And, confirmed operation: Normal, immediate, cold, morning start; less than 1/2 second :rockon:

Compared to the bunk rebuild's 6-seconds...

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Wed Feb 10, 2021 4:43 pm

That is very interesting and good information to know. Did they just use the motor body and the OEM head?
Thanks for sharing.
Glad you got yours finely fixed. :BANANA:

Some pictures would be nice.
:POPCORN:

Gypsy62 · **Posted:** Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:14 am

BTW- Thanks for the jumper-cable starter ground-confirmation trick!
Didnt know that one:

Made sense to utilize the heft of both leads.
No change in this case, but cool diagnostic!
Thanks!

PZKW108 · **Joined:** Sun Apr 06, 2014 5:23 pm **Posts:** 461

Gypsy62 wrote:

BTW- Thanks for the jumper-cable starter ground-confirmation trick!
Didnt know that one:

Made sense to utilize the heft of both leads.
No change in this case, but cool diagnostic!
Thanks!

You have a very old battery !

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