Is it normal for my 05 CRD to get warm on gentle climbs?

ScootGoose · **Joined:** Mon Aug 29, 2022 10:45 pm **Posts:** 17

I have an 05 CRD, 152k miles. It gets warm (3/4 mark on the temperature gauge) while climbing moderate slopes and distances at highway speeds. Not towing anything or doing anything special, just an i80 drive over Emigrant Pass will do it.

I had cooling system issues earlier this year and changed the thermostat and fan clutch (turns out both were fine), water pump (was failing, this solved my immediate issue), a couple of hoses that were starting to get old, deleted the EGR and removed the EGR cooler. The only tune I have was to stop the CEL from the EGR delete. I believe the temperature gauge is functioning correctly- I've used a temperature gun to diagnose what's happening when the thermostat reads 3/4. The numbers below are what I got.

The only thing left in the cooling system that isn't new is the radiator and the fan blades, but both seem to be functioning fine. I've read about the fan and clutch upgrade and also the thermostat upgrade but I haven't done either. In short, is it normal for my jeep to be hitting these temperatures on these climbs, without those modifications? Kind of unnerving if so, can only imagine what a serious climb would do to it...

3/4 temp gauge readings (in Fahrenheit)

Expansion tank - 200 - 210
Top of thermostat housing- 215
Bottom of thermostat housing - 222
Radiator inlet at hose- 220
Plastic right past inlet (start of radiator) 230
Plastic right before outlet - 190
Radiator outlet at hose - 187
Top of engine - 222

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WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sat Oct 22, 2022 3:02 pm

No, those kind of temperatures on moderate grade climbs are certainly NOT normal. Especially since you are not towing any loads.
Are you losing any coolant level in the coolant tank?

Have you checked to make sure there is no debris in front of the radiator partly blocking air flow through it?
Several have reported finding a build up of debris between the AC condenser and the front of the radiator.
Have you washed out the cooling fins on the radiator, it might help a bunch to have a clean exterior.

What kind of antifreeze are you using, G-05 HOAT I hope. Mixing any other type of antifreeze with G-05 can produce a gel and major cooling problems.
You may want to do a complete cooling system flush and install new G-05 HOAT antifreeze, it is the only antifreeze to use in this diesel engine.

Lastly, if none of the above helps, install the GM HD fan and fan clutch upgrade for better cooling. see below
But at normal highway speeds, there should be enough air flow through a "Clean" radiator with the correct type of antifreeze to keep your engine at normal operating temperatures.

NOTE: When thermostats on these engines fail, they fail to the full open position. I don't believe anyone has ever reported one sticking closed.
You don't have one of those "In Hose" thermostats installed do you??? They are very bad!!! :grim:

ScootGoose · **Joined:** Mon Aug 29, 2022 10:45 pm **Posts:** 17

When I changed the timing belt and water pump I pulled the intercooler and radiator and cleared their fins of debris. This was maybe 600 miles ago. In that process I also took a compressor and blew anything out that I could from the AC condenser.

I'm running G-05 HOAT, and I don't have any leaks. I've run many flushes with the issues this summer- chemical, simply cycling distilled water, and then pulling every hose off and putting a garden hose into every component of the cooling system. Water comes out clean.

Oh and the thermostat is OEM, I should've known better that it usually fails open and probably couldn't be the source of my issues

I'm open to doing the fan mod but I think there must be a different issue at play here that I just can't figure out. When I deleted the EGR I used muffler sealer around the blank plate and I don't think that's leaking.

Also the "part time" light is on but the stick is set to 2WD. I know I'm actually in 2WD from spinning tires on gravel, I think it's just a fault in the light. When I go into part time the light turns off and I've observed all 4 tires having power.

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WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sun Oct 23, 2022 9:55 pm

IF it is trying to run hot, and you are NOT losing any coolant level in the coolant tank, and you have verified you have no obstruction in the air flow through the radiator stack, and you know the insides for your radiator is is clean, and you know there has not been any mixing of any other types of antifreeze. It must be either a water pump issue, or your mechanical fan is simply not moving enough air through the radiator stack when the engine is under heavy loads. There is not a lot left to point at!

Simplest and cheapest place to start is to do the GM 11 blade fan and super heavy duty fan clutch mod.
I would try that first and see if it cures the problem. If it does, you are good to go, if it does not, it bring on lots more discussion. :wink:

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK · **Joined:** Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:29 pm **Posts:** 1167

ScootGoose wrote:

When I changed the timing belt and water pump I pulled the intercooler and radiator and cleared their fins of debris. This was maybe 600 miles ago. In that process I also took a compressor and blew anything out that I could from the AC condenser.

I'm running G-05 HOAT, and I don't have any leaks. I've run many flushes with the issues this summer- chemical, simply cycling distilled water, and then pulling every hose off and putting a garden hose into every component of the cooling system. Water comes out clean.

Oh and the thermostat is OEM, I should've known better that it usually fails open and probably couldn't be the source of my issues

I'm open to doing the fan mod but I think there must be a different issue at play here that I just can't figure out. When I deleted the EGR I used muffler sealer around the blank plate and I don't think that's leaking.

Also the "part time" light is on but the stick is set to 2WD. I know I'm actually in 2WD from spinning tires on gravel, I think it's just a fault in the light. When I go into part time the light turns off and I've observed all 4 tires having power.

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For the sake of expediency I will stick to the cooling system issues only.

WWDiesel is correct in almost everything here. However, thermostat valves of every type have been known on very rare occasions to fail closed or partially closed. This has indeed been reported once or twice in the Jeep Liberty CRD Facebook page when the owner replaced his failed O.E. thermostat with a cheap Chinese knock-off. Despite this fact, you are likely O.K. as it is indeed a very rare occurrence.

WWDiesel's G.M. fan and fan clutch upgrade are excellent; they are less expensive than the Mopar parts, fit exactly in the CRD engine application, are heavier duty and are more reliable. Win, win, win, win! He is also 100% correct about the inline thermostat modification. It is a poorly thought-out upgrade that will likely cause long-term problems for the engine. I will send you a private message with my e-mail address... send me an e-mail message asking about the problems of the inline thermostat and I will reply with a write-up that I did on the subject.

Simply replacing parts is not the best way to fix this problem; you have replaced parts already and you still are experiencing overheat events. There is a problem here that needs to be diagnosed and repaired; your engine should not be going to 3/4 on the temperature gauge by driving at highway speeds. The Mopar mechanical fan clutch and fan should be more than enough to do the job, especially because you are not towing. The GM parts upgrade should only need be employed if your fan clutch has failed or if you are towing a lot in hot weather.

Perform the fan clutch test again and see if your fan clutch has failed.... they have been known to do so right out of the box as reported by a LOST member here; the brand he chose was Hayden.
Go for a drive and get your engine hot to where the temperature on the IR gun reads over 205 when pointed at the thermostat housing. Shut off the engine and with gloved hands try to move the fan. If it indeed moves - even with a little bit of effort - that indicates a failed fan clutch.

I question the accuracy of your IR gun. How is it possible that the start of the radiator can be hotter than the bottom of the thermostat housing? An accurate IR gun is critical to proper diagnosis of your problem.

I would also question the efficiency of your radiator, which could also be a mechanical fan problem. A drop of 230 degrees to only about 190 degrees does not seem like a lot to me. If your fan clutch is functioning properly is likely is a buildup of debris in the radiator that can not be properly removes with cleaning and flushing.

Is your auxiliary fan functioning properly? This is the pusher fan in front of the radiator stack just behind the grill. It engages when the A/C is on, but it also serves to provide auxiliary cooling when the engine is working hard. This may be a case where there are a number of components that have not failed but are also not functioning 100%; effectively a death of a thousand cuts scenario.

Somewhere on this forum are images of the temperature gauge with actual numbers pasted to what the temperature actually is when the needle points there. WWDiesel may have this image; I do not. But I seem to recall that a 3/4 reading on the temperature gauge is a little higher temperature than what you have posted. I may be incorrect in this, so I am hoping somebody can post this image again on this thread.

Did you cross-reference your IR temperature gun readings with temperature readings that you can retrieve with an OBDII reader? It may be that your O.E. temperature sending unit is malfunctioning and you can confirm this with the OBDII reader. If the OBDII readings are off by more than a few degrees from the IR temperature gun readings, then you likely have a malfunctioning temperature sending unit and that would contribute to inaccurate temperature gauge readings.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Wed Oct 26, 2022 9:39 pm

This is the temperature gauge markings with actual temperatures Jeff was referring to in his post.
Metal temperature at the thermostat housing where the sensor is located read with an IR gun should be real close to what the gauge is showing on the dash.
If it does not closely match, you very likely have a bad temperature sending unit. :juggle:

ScootGoose · **Joined:** Mon Aug 29, 2022 10:45 pm **Posts:** 17

Thank you very much for the feedback and recommendations! I'll dig into it some more this weekend and report my findings

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krb · **Posted:** Thu Oct 27, 2022 5:41 am

Is your fan shroud still in place?

I've got everything almost new like you. Same replacements and deletes (still need to fix the EGR CEL though).

I've experienced high temps twice, once in the NC mountains, on the interstate, loaded (luggage on the roof rack too). I did loose coolant and discovered I'd not torqued the thermostat housing and it was leaking after about 10K so we'll ignore that event.

Once again in the East Ky mountains on a two lane pulling a "light" trailer, maybe 1,500lbs? I didn't think to check and see if my almost new fan clutch was working. I concluded that since I couldn't find a fan shroud when I rebuilt the front end and I've been running with no issues until those mountain pulls it must be the lack of a shroud guiding the air. That was probably 2,000 miles ago with no issues since. But no long "heavy" pulls either.

I've thought about fabbing a shroud with some used conveyor belt but "the roof don't leak when it ain't raining"...

I realize your experience is unloaded but you also didn't mention a shroud in your troubleshooting.

ScootGoose · **Joined:** Mon Aug 29, 2022 10:45 pm **Posts:** 17

Oh the shroud is a good thought. I actually modified the shroud so that I can pull it out easier when I did the clutch, and in the process lost maybe 10% of the bottom of the shroud. Next time I'll cut the shroud in half horizontally and make a top and a bottom half, not a left and right that isn't as well fixed in place.

I think my problem is the radiator. I've been away from the jeep since I last posted and so haven't been able to do any more troubleshooting, but I'll need the jeep for a Christmas road trip soon so I'm planning to just go ahead and swap it.

Question though: what have the experiences been with the nissens radiator? Idparts doesn't offer the Mopar one anymore and moparpartsgiant won't arrive in time for my needs. The core for the nissens is 1.3" thick, while the Mopar is 1.75".

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WWDiesel · **Posted:** Tue Nov 15, 2022 10:15 pm

ScootGoose wrote:

Oh the shroud is a good thought. I actually modified the shroud so that I can pull it out easier when I did the clutch, and in the process lost maybe 10% of the bottom of the shroud. Next time I'll cut the shroud in half horizontally and make a top and a bottom half, not a left and right that isn't as well fixed in place.
I think my problem is the radiator. I've been away from the jeep since I last posted and so haven't been able to do any more troubleshooting, but I'll need the jeep for a Christmas road trip soon so I'm planning to just go ahead and swap it.
Question though: what have the experiences been with the nissens radiator? Idparts doesn't offer the Mopar one anymore and moparpartsgiant won't arrive in time for my needs. The core for the nissens is 1.3" thick, while the Mopar is 1.75".

Rock Auto says the Nissens 61026 is a direct replacement for the 05174154AC part number. But they do not list the thickness.
Were you looking at the 61026? Where did you get the thickness numbers from?

There are some Mopar OEM radiators listed on eBay and delivery available in 3 to 6 days. Not cheap, but if you Google the part number 05174154AC, you can find some. :google:

PN's: 05174154AA, 05174154AB, or 05174154AC

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK · **Joined:** Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:29 pm **Posts:** 1167

WWDiesel wrote:

This is the temperature gauge markings with actual temperatures Jeff was referring to in his post.
Metal temperature at the thermostat housing where the sensor is located read with an IR gun should be real close to what the gauge is showing on the dash.
If it does not closely match, you very likely have a bad temperature sending unit. :juggle:

WWDiesel; is this image something cobbled together by a Liberty CRD owner by measuring engine operating temperatures with an IR gun himself, or is this an image that was taken directly from the Factory Service Manual? It is important that the engine temperature readings as indicated on the gauge in this image are positioned accurately.

Something also to consider... Cross-referencing IR temperature gun readings with the image and posted readings does indeed provide some useful information, but ONLY if the engine temperature gauge on his CRD and the IR gun are accurate.

ScootGoose needs to confirm the accuracy of his IR gun, and also needs to cross-reference his accurate IR gun readings to actual engine temperature readings as read by the engine's computer.

A more meaningful cross-reference would be those readings taken with the IR gun aimed at the bottom of the thermostat housing, and actual engine temperature readings as read by an OBDII reader or a Torque Pro app on a smart phone. This removes any inaccuracies that might be present on the O.E. temperature gauge itself, (because you are not reading off of it; you are only concerned with any temperature readings you get off of the OBDII reader or your smart phone app), and isolates the cross-reference to gauge the accuracy of the temperature sending unit itself.

ScootGoose · **Joined:** Mon Aug 29, 2022 10:45 pm **Posts:** 17

Update: I swapped the OEM radiator for the Niseens 61026 ~10days ago. The Nissens has notably thinner coils, maybe 0.5" thinner (see pics). That being said, I just finished driving 2500 miles and I had no temperature issues the whole time- temperature gauge stayed exactly where it should, even while climbing steep grades at speed like i70 near Vaile, CO.

When I get back from my trip I'll play around with the OEM radiator- might try to dissect it to see how full of deposits the bottom half of it was despite all the flushes. I'll update here once I do.

In the interim I have two other things I'd like to dig into and get some recommendations on. Please let me know if I should start a new thread for these.

The first is the ABS/wheel speed sensor that sits above the rear diff. The parking brake and abs lights are on and the odometer isn't clicking. I cleaned off the sensor, then swapped the sensor for a new one, and still the odometer isn't working and the lights stay on. The connector is getting 12v to it, and recently the sensor worked on startup for 2 miles but then stopped after going over a bump. I think there's probably a connector somewhere that's crapping out. Any experience/guidance with following up on this?

Second is a stutter I experience when trying to maintain speed between 55 and 75 mph. Usually happens when going down a very slight incline on cruise control, but I can also do it from just lightly pressing the accelerator. I'm going to dig into the throttle position sensor, but I'm wondering if this could be related to play in the drive shaft- where the vehicle is right on the line between its momentum turning the drive shaft, or the engine.

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WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sun Dec 25, 2022 12:32 pm

ScootGoose wrote:

Update: I swapped the OEM radiator for the Niseens 61026 ~10days ago. The Nissens has notably thinner coils, maybe 0.5" thinner (see pics). That being said, I just finished driving 2500 miles and I had no temperature issues the whole time- temperature gauge stayed exactly where it should, even while climbing steep grades at speed like i70 near Vaile, CO.
When I get back from my trip I'll play around with the OEM radiator- might try to dissect it to see how full of deposits the bottom half of it was despite all the flushes. I'll update here once I do.
In the interim I have two other things I'd like to dig into and get some recommendations on. Please let me know if I should start a new thread for these.
1. The first is the ABS/wheel speed sensor that sits above the rear diff. The parking brake and abs lights are on and the odometer isn't clicking. I cleaned off the sensor, then swapped the sensor for a new one, and still the odometer isn't working and the lights stay on. The connector is getting 12v to it, and recently the sensor worked on startup for 2 miles but then stopped after going over a bump. I think there's probably a connector somewhere that's crapping out. Any experience/guidance with following up on this?

2. Second is a stutter I experience when trying to maintain speed between 55 and 75 mph. Usually happens when going down a very slight incline on cruise control, but I can also do it from just lightly pressing the accelerator. I'm going to dig into the throttle position sensor, but I'm wondering if this could be related to play in the drive shaft- where the vehicle is right on the line between its momentum turning the drive shaft, or the engine.

1. More than likely a broke wire at the connector to the sensor or a bad connector, this issue has been reported by quite a few owners of 05 models.
Fix: For replacement connector & wire repair kit: Rear axle wheel speed sensor repair kit - black 2 way, 05013995AA Google the part number! It is available on Amazon, eBay, and many other Mopar vendors.

2. Very common symptoms of torque converter clutches slipping (shuddering) when vehicle is under load and transmission is in high (5th) gear and torque converter clutches are locked up. There is plenty of reading about this common failure issue on these vehicles on this forum if you do a search for "Shuddering").
Fix: Replace torque converter with an ungraded (better) torque converter like a SunCoast TC or one of the others available. Some owners have optied to install a TC for a Dodge Hemi Ram truck and reported better performance. If you remove the transmission to upgrade the torque converter, be sure and replace the front (oil) pump assembly in the transmission while you got it out. There are several wear items in the front pump that can cause problems with age.
:JEEPIN:

Transmission Front Pump Assembly:

ScootGoose · **Joined:** Mon Aug 29, 2022 10:45 pm **Posts:** 17

WWDiesel wrote:

1. More than likely a broke wire at the connector to the sensor or a bad connector, this issue has been reported by quite a few owners of 05 models.
Fix: For replacement connector & wire repair kit: Rear axle wheel speed sensor repair kit - black 2 way, 05013995AA Google the part number! It is available on Amazon, eBay, and many other Mopar vendors.

2. Very common symptoms of torque converter clutches slipping (shuddering) when vehicle is under load and transmission is in high (5th) gear and torque converter clutches are locked up. There is plenty of reading about this common failure issue on these vehicles on this forum if you do a search for "Shuddering").
Fix: Replace torque converter with an ungraded (better) torque converter like a SunCoast TC or one of the others available. Some owners have optied to install a TC for a Dodge Hemi Ram truck and reported better performance. If you remove the transmission to upgrade the torque converter, be sure and replace the front (oil) pump assembly in the transmission while you got it out. There are several wear items in the front pump that can cause problems with age.
:JEEPIN:

Transmission Front Pump Assembly:

1) Ordered, thank you!!

2) Sweet, my first time dropping a transmission! I found one how-to on YouTube for an 03 - any significant differences between that and my 05? Looks pretty similar at first pass. Any other guides you can recommend?

While we're at it, there is also a singular clunk I experience sometimes while braking - it feels like it's happening when shifting down from 3 to 2, right at ~20mph, but only when braking constantly and on a smooth surface, and only after getting into 4th or higher. It's hard to replicate on demand sometimes but I'm starting to get a bit of a spidey sense for when to expect it. Any idea what that is other than transmission and how can I take a swing at solving it while I have the transmission out?

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WWDiesel · **Posted:** Tue Dec 27, 2022 3:03 pm

ScootGoose wrote:

1) Ordered, thank you!!
2) Sweet, my first time dropping a transmission! I found one how-to on YouTube for an 03 - any significant differences between that and my 05? Looks pretty similar at first pass. Any other guides you can recommend?
While we're at it, there is also a singular clunk I experience sometimes while braking - it feels like it's happening when shifting down from 3 to 2, right at ~20mph, but only when braking constantly and on a smooth surface, and only after getting into 4th or higher. It's hard to replicate on demand sometimes but I'm starting to get a bit of a spidey sense for when to expect it. Any idea what that is other than transmission and how can I take a swing at solving it while I have the transmission out?

R&R on a transmission for an 03 would be similar, but that is a gas model and there will be some differences as opposed to a diesel model.
You can go to here and download the Factory Service Manual for an 05 or 06 diesel model and the service manual contains detailed instructions on how to R&R the transmission along with a multitude of other information on this vehicle.
Go here to read online or download:> http://www.colorado4wheel.com/manuals/Jeep/KJ/
Click on this link for the 2005 model FSM:> 2005JeepKJServiceManual.pdf
Go to section 21, page 174 in the FSM where transmission removal starts. 21 - 174 AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION - 545RFE

More than likely, your clunk is worn out rubber bushings in the factory rear upper "boomerang" control arm. The soft rubber bushings on each end where the control arm mounts to the body wear out and come apart allowing the metal arms to make contact with the body which are located right under the rear seat and the noise resonates through the vehicle especially when the transmission is downshifting or upshifting.

You can replace the control arm with a new factory style replacement available from IDParts or one of the parts stores that sales Moog suspension parts. DO NOT install one of the cheap chinaism ones, they are junk right out of the box!

Some owners like myself and many others have upgraded their rear upper control arm to the super heavy duty IronRock KJ Adjustable Rear Upper Control A-Arm. It has hard rubber bushings on the body ends and a greasable Heim type ball joint on the differential mount end. It will last the lifetime of the vehicle and has rebuildable and replaceable bushings and joints. It is a simple direct bolt on replacement for the stock OEM control arm. Contact IronRockOffroad.com to purchase.

Is it normal for my 05 CRD to get warm on gentle climbs?

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