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| P0093 Questions http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=92672 |
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| Author: | Steve777 [ Wed May 03, 2023 7:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | P0093 Questions |
So it has been an interesting winter, with me fighting gelled fuel and P0093 codes. My own fault really, back last fall, when diesel was pushing $6 at the pump, I took a chance and kept my biodiesel percentage up higher (like at 50% or so). Worked fine until we had some -20F days in late December and then my fuel gelled and the engine died with a P0093. OK, pretty straight forward, I added some 911 additive and ran that fuel on warm days until I got the bio percentage to under 10%. I learned my lesson, and things seemed to be going fine til last week when I was going up a pretty steep hill and trying to pass when suddenly the engine light comes on, engine dies and I have to coast over to the side. It was ~50F during this, too warm for gelled fuel. It restarted just fine and I continued on my rounds, keeping a lighter foot on the go pedal. When I checked the codes it was a P0093 (the only one), but it was too warm for it to have been gelled fuel. I cleared the code, bled the fuel filter, and it has driven fine since, but I have not really pushed it, go pedal wise. No other symptoms of anything wrong, except an occasional running unevenly at idle, but that comes and goes. My question is, what was going on with the engine dying at high load. I've looked at the posts on this code, and I think I can eliminate the crank and cam sensors, as they were both replaced about 2 years ago. I don't smell any obvious fuel leaks, at least up by the engine, nor notices any wet spots underneath. Fuel filter was replaced back in Dec-Jan when the fuel was gelling, but I suppose the fuel gelling and 911 additive might have knocked some gunk off in the fuel system and that is clogging the filter. Or I suppose there might be an air leak and the filter is loosing prime (will need to check it in a bit to see if that's the case). What do folks here think, partially clogged fuel filter? Something else? Rough idle related to this? Thoughts? |
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| Author: | DieselJeepLuvr [ Thu May 04, 2023 8:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: P0093 Questions |
A little history on you Libby would help. Miles, upgrades and updates etc. If you don't have a lift pump you are probably sucking air into the system. Especially when your fuel is thick enough to gel. |
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| Author: | Steve777 [ Thu May 04, 2023 9:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: P0093 Questions |
Sure, to answer your questions: 110K mile on the CRD. Has a tune and ERG disable, otherwise fairly stock. No lift pump. It could well be pulling air. Especially if the gelling was in the tank and the IP was putting a vacuum on that clogged line. Any definitive way to tell, other than checking to see if the fuel filter keeps "collecting" air after a short while? I had planned on driving it for this week (almost done), then checking the prime/air in the filter. So far no more issues or codes. |
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| Author: | WWDiesel [ Thu May 04, 2023 11:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: P0093 Questions |
You really need to install an intank lift pump; it cures all "air in fuel" issues forever. They actually came installed from the factory on european models. Chrysler simply cheaped out on North American models. Your Liberty actually already has the fuel pump relay, wiring all the way to under the rear seat, and the logic in the ECM to operate an intank fuel pump. The factory "push on" fuel line fittings back at the fuel tank where the rubber line connects to the metal line on the frame are designed for a pressurized fuel system that was used on gas models, not a vacuum system as used on the CRD Jeep. These push on fittings can allow air to be sucked into the fuel system when used on a vacuum system where the CP3 is sucking the fuel all the from the injection pump to the fuel tank. So any leak anywhere, air will be sucked into the fuel system. Quote: Intank Fuel Pump Advantages
Most owners simply opt to install an "intank" fuel lift pump while some install a simple "inline" fuel pump. There are several advantages for installing the intank fuel pump vs an inline pump as for having the fuel pump suction inside the fuel tank puts everything on the entire system under positive pressure so there can be NO leaks for air to be sucked into the fuel system. If you have any leaks anywhere on your fuel system, it will be self-evident very quickly as fuel will leak out rather than air being sucked into the fuel system. An inline fuel pump can still suck air into the fuel system if there are any leaks anywhere on the suction side of the pump, fitting, hoses, lines, etc…. See this for intank fuel pump install: Airtex E7181M In-tank Lift Pump 2005 Jeep Liberty CRD https://www.auerbach.ca/kj/lift_pump/default.html Fuel Pump Module Assembly (P76148M) by Carter® |
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| Author: | user113 [ Thu Jun 22, 2023 1:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: P0093 Questions |
So...most of the references on L.O.S.T. seem to be directed to adding an external lift pump or dropping in a slightly modified one from a Dodge/Ram. Nobody ever mentions sourcing a European lift pump (presumably other non-North-America cars might be similar), but somehow the Euro torque converters are available? Are the European in-tank lift pumps not available, or not compatible? |
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| Author: | Steve777 [ Thu Jun 22, 2023 2:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: P0093 Questions |
An update on this... The "problem" may have been related to my fuel change last winter. I typically run biodiesel (which I make myself) in the warm months slowly easing back to 10-20% as we get into winter. Well last fall, petro diesel was pushing $6/gallon, so I played chicken with the weather and kept my bio percent much higher, like 50-60%. All went well until a below 0F spell in late December. At that point I added Diesel 911 and as much petro diesel as I could and drove only on warm days til I had used up most all the biodiesel in the tank, and refilled exclusively with petro for the rest of the winter. Bio, beside being a good high pressure lube also causes orings/seals to swell a bit. It is good in stopping fuel system leaks in that regard. I suspect that adding the 911 and switching exclusively to petro based diesel caused the seals in the fuel line connection to shrink back a bit allowing air in the line. Anyway for the last month or two I have gone back to mostly biodiesel and The P0093's have stopped, and I no longer see air in the top of the fuel filter assembly when I check it. So I think using more bio has fixed the problem for now. No doubt, putting an in-tank fuel pump in would be a better, more permanent solution to this design flaw (using pressure sealing junction on a fuel line which is under a vacuum). But for now at least, things seem to be working. |
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| Author: | WWDiesel [ Thu Jun 22, 2023 3:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: P0093 Questions |
Steve777 wrote: No doubt, putting an in-tank fuel pump in would be a better, more permanent solution to this design flaw (using pressure sealing junction on a fuel line which is under a vacuum). But for now at least, things seem to be working. You really need to install an intank fuel pump. Problem solved for good! 
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| Author: | user113 [ Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: P0093 Questions |
OK, I think I found the European in-tank fuel pump for the CRD: https://www.buycarparts.co.uk/fispa/13962237 or https://www.autopartspro.co.uk/sidat-13779240 or https://www.autopartspro.co.uk/delphi-17011391 I guess at those prices it doesn't make sense to import them for our Jeeps. |
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| Author: | WWDiesel [ Sat Jun 24, 2023 10:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: P0093 Questions |
user113 wrote: OK, I think I found the European in-tank fuel pump for the CRD: https://www.buycarparts.co.uk/fispa/13962237 or https://www.autopartspro.co.uk/sidat-13779240 or https://www.autopartspro.co.uk/delphi-17011391 I guess at those prices it doesn't make sense to import them for our Jeeps. Are they for diesel Jeeps or petrol engines? I could not tell by the listings. DO NOT use one for a petrol engine, the discharge pressure is way to high and will damage your CP3 injection pump. Fuel Pump Parts: Airtex E7181M In-tank Lift Pump 2005 Jeep Liberty CRD Mopar: 5143160AB Airtex E7181M CARTER P76148M Delphi # FG1224 It should look very similar to this: 
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| Author: | user113 [ Mon Jun 26, 2023 12:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: P0093 Questions |
Yes, the engine selection was made from the Diesel section, not the Petrol section:  Of course, that still does not guarantee a direct replacement fit. I'm in need of an in-tank lift pump so I'm half tempted to try it though. I'll let you know if I decide to do that. I also do wonder what the difference between the 150HP and the 163HP motors were. Anybody have any ideas? |
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| Author: | user113 [ Tue Jun 27, 2023 10:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: P0093 Questions |
WWDiesel wrote: You really need to install an intank lift pump; it cures all "air in fuel" issues forever. They actually came installed from the factory on european models. Chrysler simply cheaped out on North American models. user113 wrote: OK, I think I found the European in-tank fuel pump for the CRD: ... I guess at those prices it doesn't make sense to import them for our Jeeps. It is true that lift pumps work wonders on our 2.8L CRD engines. I have put two external lift pumps on mine and they have both failed, so I was hoping to find a more robust one, like the mythical European factory lift pumps. However, I have done some more research. I believe that whoever on the forum initially said that the European diesel KJs came from the factory with lift pumps was mistaken, they seem to be pumps in name only. I have found several European photos of used fuel sender units and NONE of them actually have lift pumps in them. Notice the photos below, three from the UK (ebay.co.uk) and two from Germany (b-parts.com). Even though some of the listings label the device as a "pump," they all show only two thin wires in the units for the fuel level sending gauge. Conspicuously absent are the two heavy gauge wires that a pump motor would require. Also notice that in each of these images, the lower end of the fuel supply line is attached to a "dummy" pump molded into the base from the same color plastic as the rest of it.      I also found other "pumps" from Romania, Czech Republic and Russia that were identical, but poorer quality images, so it is not just limited to English speaking listings. The following image is also from the UK ebay site, and shows an in-tank lift pump for the 2006 diesel Grand Cherokee with the extremely rare Mercedes Benz 3.0L OM642 engine that evaporated once Daimler spun the Chrysler division off. Notice that this pump has four wires in it, two thin ones and two heavy ones. Also the lower end of the fuel supply line is clearly attached to a real pump, not a dummy one.  I think it is safe to put this myth to bed. Don't bother hunting for a diesel in-tank pump for a KJ, they are not true pumps. Another fun fact I learned in this exercise: b-parts.com was bought by Stellantis in 2015. See https://www.media.stellantis.com/em-en/parts-services/press/b-parts-confirms-leadership-in-european-re-used-parts-market-and-accelerates-its-ambitions-for-international-deployment |
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