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 Post subject: Inline Thermostat
PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2023 2:32 pm 
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Well, I give up. I have been trying all kinds of experiments and fab work to make a reusable thermostat housing out of the stock thermostat since mine is having issues again. Seems after taking a few apart and troubleshooting, they all eventually don't fully close after cool down which makes them run cold much longer but they all seem to fully open (essentially blocking off the WP suction line). So I'm going to be installing an inline with a good thermostat with a tiny weep hole until I can come up with a better system that's not as elusive as bigfoot...

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 Post subject: Re: Inline Thermostat
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2023 9:49 am 
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I'm NOT endorsing the in-hose thermostat option, as I'm sure a "real" one is the better option. I will say I've run a 195 degree in-hose thermostat, with a small by-pass hole drilled in the flange, for over 125,000 miles with no problems. In those miles, towing a 3,000 lb trailer in all kinds of conditions is included.

Steve


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 Post subject: Re: Inline Thermostat
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2023 1:53 pm 
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Issues with installing an inline (inhose) thermostat:
The "bypass" circuit that comes off the bottom of OEM thermostat housing is completely closed off (shut) when an OEM thermostat fails to the full open position which is their normal failure mode. See coolant diagram below Engine very slow to warm up.

While some have condoned the use of the inline/inhose thermostats, and not reported issues, a couple of owners on this forum in the past have reported of incurring a head gasket failure after installing an inhose thermostat.
One owner claimed a cracked head on the use of the inhose thermostat. :grim:
Coincidental, no way for anyone to know for sure! :?:

So please just be aware, there could be some possible downsides of installing an inhose thermostat...is it worth the risk? :juggle:

we are our own warranty providers. :2cents:
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 Post subject: Re: Inline Thermostat
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2023 7:23 pm 
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Any thermostat without a weep hole could easily cause overheating. I've bought new aftermarket ones for my Dodge CTD that didn't have one and always just drill a 3/32" hole (which is the size of the one from Cummins). Maybe the ones that had a failure installed them backwards? This world is full of idiots you know. Just saying.

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 Post subject: Re: Inline Thermostat
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2023 11:12 pm 
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I agree about the bleed hole on normal thermostat installs, but this system with its bypass system involved really makes one think, is it worth the risk to save a few dollars.
I personally would never recommend an inhose thermostat knowing what I know about this unique cooling system, simply not worth the possible consequences if something does not get cooled properly.
But, to each his own, I generally only like to recommend proven upgrades and safe modifications that have withstood the test of time.... :wink: :2cents:

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 Post subject: Re: Inline Thermostat
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 1:56 am 
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Another issue with inline thermostats is that they dont have coolant circulating around the engine only. In cold climates you may not need much flow through the radiator. The bypass system keeps the coolant flowing around the engine & so helps prevent hot spots. There is no advantage for the inline unit. The R428 was designed to have continuous coolant flow through it & we should respect that.

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 Post subject: Re: Inline Thermostat
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 2:25 pm 
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layback40 wrote:
Another issue with inline thermostats is that they dont have coolant circulating around the engine only. In cold climates you may not need much flow through the radiator. The bypass system keeps the coolant flowing around the engine & so helps prevent hot spots. There is no advantage for the inline unit. The R428 was designed to have continuous coolant flow through it & we should respect that.

Agree; well said! :BINGO:
Some designs just don't need to be alternated.
Asking for trouble...

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 Post subject: Re: Inline Thermostat
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2023 2:47 pm 
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I think if you poke around the site, you can find somebody's design for making the stock thermostat replaceable. I had my dad machine mine apart and fab up a unit that used the stock thermostat housing, but allowed it to be opened and closed again and just replace the thermostat itself inside, like you do on most other engines.

You still need to find somebody who can TIG weld aluminum and has some mechanical/machining capabilities. It's been a lot of years ago now, but I could ask Dad if he remembers how much of a pain in the booty it was to make. I do recall at the time, asking if he was willing to make a bunch of these and offer them for sale on the forum, but he didn't have any interest in it back then.

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 Post subject: Re: Inline Thermostat
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2023 3:22 pm 
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The Kaps original design drawings for modifying and making the OEM thermostat housing serviceable are available online if anyone wants or needs them.
See this:> https://www.jeepkj.com/threads/diy-serv ... tat.59804/

You will have to have access to some serious meching equipment to make the necessary parts and modifications or pay someone to do it for you.
Uses the Dodge Hemi thermostat in the modified housing.
But would probably still be cheaper than the other $500 option.

Picture of a modified and serviceable housing/thermostat:
Image

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 Post subject: Re: Inline Thermostat
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2023 5:06 pm 
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WWDiesel wrote:
The Kaps original design drawings for modifying and making the OEM thermostat housing serviceable are available online if anyone wants or needs them.
See this:> https://www.jeepkj.com/threads/diy-serv ... tat.59804/

You will have to have access to some serious meching equipment to make the necessary parts and modifications or pay someone to do it for you.
Uses the Dodge Hemi thermostat in the modified housing.
But would probably still be cheaper than the other $500 option.


This the route I took. Modified the factory thermostat housing and installed a hemi 192 degree T-stat and it works great. Plus it only costed me a 6-pack!

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 Post subject: Re: Inline Thermostat
PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2023 2:57 am 
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WWDiesel wrote:
The Kaps original design drawings for modifying and making the OEM thermostat housing serviceable are available online if anyone wants or needs them.
See this:> https://www.jeepkj.com/threads/diy-serv ... tat.59804/

You will have to have access to some serious meching equipment to make the necessary parts and modifications or pay someone to do it for you.
Uses the Dodge Hemi thermostat in the modified housing.
But would probably still be cheaper than the other $500 option.

Picture of a modified and serviceable housing/thermostat:
Image



The are a couple of problems with this design. The first is that the chamber size of the O.E. housing is not appropriate for the HEMI thermostat valve.

There is no way for anyone outside of a cooling systems engineering laboratory to determine what the appropriate size of the chamber should be, other than to measure the chamber size of where the HEMI thermostat valve would normally be in, and that is in the water pump of a HEMI V-8 engine. I measured the size of that chamber and determined that the O.E. thermostat housing would not be correct, so I went with an entirely new housing and cap with the exact same size dimensions for the chamber of the Hot Diesel Solutions Model 001 engine thermostat assembly.

The second problem is that welding 6061 T6 aluminum to cheap aluminum castings can present problems. If the weld fails, then you will have a catastrophic failure in the cooling system. This will in all likelihood happen in a high demand situation that can result in an overheat of the engine, which would in turn likely result in a head gasket failure.

Thirdly, I personally have a problem with the guy who developed this modified O.E. thermostat because it uses the HEMI thermostat valve. I spent the time and money in research to determine that the HEMI engine thermostat valve was by far the best option to go with as it satisfies all the requirements for an upgrade serviceable thermostat assembly. I was the first to determine the HEMI thermostat valve was the way to go. The developer of this modified O.E. thermostat used it without my permission and gives everyone the impression this was all his own idea. :x :x I call bullsh*t on that. And yes, there is nothing I can do about it because the H.D.S. Model 001 thermostat is not patented. That is not the point. The point is, end users such as yourselves should think carefully about what you buy and where you get it from; otherwise the true innovators that are working hard to actually make things better may just stop innovating and do something else.


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 Post subject: Re: Inline Thermostat
PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2023 3:29 am 
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layback40 wrote:
Another issue with inline thermostats is that they dont have coolant circulating around the engine only. In cold climates you may not need much flow through the radiator. The bypass system keeps the coolant flowing around the engine & so helps prevent hot spots. There is no advantage for the inline unit. The R428 was designed to have continuous coolant flow through it & we should respect that.



Essentially, you are correct in that inline thermostat valves only control coolant flow through the radiator circuit. And, THANK YOU for saying that the original design of the R428 should be respected. SO MANY CRD owners do not respect the original design OR basic internal combustion engine design and engineering principles.

However, ALL liquid cooled internal combustion engines have a bypass circuit because all liquid cooled IC engines will develop hot spots in the cylinder head, (increasing greatly the chances of the head warping and exhaust valve failure), if constant coolant flow through the engine is not maintained. It is simply a fact that engines which have an inline thermostat will have an open bypass circuit elsewhere that takes over coolant flow throughout the engine when the inline thermostat valve closes down.

For the record, open bypass circuit cooling systems are not as efficient as cooling systems that have valve controlled bypass circuits because there will always be some bleed through of coolant in the open bypass circuit design, even in times of high demand where you want ALL of the coolant flow going through the radiator. Cooling systems that have an open bypass circuit therefore need to be larger to compensate for the loss of efficiency. All other things being the same, (the type of IC engine, the displacement, the state of tune, naturally aspirated or forced induction, and the intended use of the engine), a valve controlled bypass circuit cooling system will be smaller and more efficient than an open bypass cooling system.

I have an article I wrote that gets into the details of all the reasons why the inline thermostat valve that was popular for solving the cold-running engine problems of the Liberty CRD is a bad idea. I can post it here for all LOSTJEEPS.com members or send it to anyone's e-mail address if they want it.

To those who have claimed that there are no issues using the inline thermostat:

You will not see your problems until you have a head gasket failure. Those failures may not simply be a warped cylinder head, but may also include cracks in the head around the exhaust valves. By the time you discover the problem it may indeed be too late to repair your cylinder head. This damage will occur prematurely because you are essentially running without a cooling system bypass circuit AND/OR you will have an overheat event because you are using the thermostat valve from a Renault R5 rather than at least spending the money for a Meziere in-hose thermostat housing. The valve from the R5 is much too small to flow enough coolant in high demand situations; the Meziere in-hose thermostat housing allows the use of a thermostat valve from a large displacement V-8 engine, (a small-block Chevrolet, I believe).


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 Post subject: Re: Inline Thermostat
PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2023 3:59 am 
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DieselJeepLuvr wrote:
Any thermostat without a weep hole could easily cause overheating. I've bought new aftermarket ones for my Dodge CTD that didn't have one and always just drill a 3/32" hole (which is the size of the one from Cummins). Maybe the ones that had a failure installed them backwards? This world is full of idiots you know. Just saying.



That small weep hole in your inline thermostat valve will not be NEARLY enough to make up for a valve-controlled bypass that is completely shut down when the O.E. thermostat assembly fails. The shut down bypass WILL increase your chances of a head gasket failure or worse... eventually. Also to consider, if you are using the thermostat valve from a Renault R5 or similar small car, it will not flow enough coolant in high demand situations.

If you absolutely MUST get your vehicle going and INSIST on using the inline thermostat option, purchase a Meziere in-hose thermostat housing AND TAKE THE GUTS OUT OF your O.E. thermostat. With this set-up you will lose some efficiency in the cooling system due to the fact that you no longer have a valve controlled bypass circuit, but at least you will not run into the problem of a bypass cooling system circuit that is permanently closed off. Also remember that your Meziere housed thermostat is now a good distance away from the engine and will not react as quickly to engine temperature changes. With both of these problems to deal with you may want to run a thermostat valve with a cooler opening temperature to compensate


Last edited by TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK on Sat Aug 12, 2023 3:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Inline Thermostat
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2023 12:44 am 
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For what it's worth, the design I was referring to is the original design that used a thermostat out of a 3.3 l Hyundai engine or something like that, way back in 2010. This is the one that I have. I didn't realize anyone had redone his design with a Dodge hemi thermostat.

viewtopic.php?f=98&t=50940

This unit has worked fine in mine, I live in Hawaii, and can't remember the last time I exposed the Jeep to the summit of Mauna kea. The coldest it has seen in the last 4 years is probably about 55° f at startup when I went camping halfway up the mountain. As for heat, it's very uncommon for me to see 90° f here. So your mileage may vary. I know the TDS is a high quality solution. If I were to do it over, given my level of income today, I would probably have gone with that solution. At the time, money was tight and I was willing to try the cheaper options. I even had an online thermostat from meziere for awhile.

When my father bought a new welder that could do aluminum, he said let's give it a go! We did it, pressure tested it, and it's been in there ever since. The TDS is certainly a safer option.

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Awaiting install: EVIC, air cleaner hose, and Saikou Michi Catch Can (like a Provent)

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He swears he can stop any time.


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 Post subject: Re: Inline Thermostat
PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2023 12:20 pm 
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WWDiesel wrote:
The Kaps original design drawings for modifying and making the OEM thermostat housing serviceable are available online if anyone wants or needs them.
See this:> https://www.jeepkj.com/threads/diy-serv ... tat.59804/

You will have to have access to some serious meching equipment to make the necessary parts and modifications or pay someone to do it for you.
Uses the Dodge Hemi thermostat in the modified housing.
But would probably still be cheaper than the other $500 option.

Picture of a modified and serviceable housing/thermostat:
Image



Thanks WW! I'll get started on this right away! I actually was in the process of fabbing one up using a MotoRad 508-92 thermostat which works perfectly but needs modification to the upper housing to allow the mounting ears to work but it's an outdated European part that is discontinued. The hemi thermostat was used in millions of US vehicles so it should be readily available for the foreseeable. future.

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New at 164K: head gasket, rockers, exhaust valves, ARP head studs, Injectors, 5v Bosch glow plugs, water pump, timing everything, serpentine everything,
New at 225k: new head, timing belt


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 Post subject: Re: Inline Thermostat
PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2023 1:08 pm 
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DieselJeepLuvr wrote:
Thanks WW! I'll get started on this right away! I actually was in the process of fabbing one up using a MotoRad 508-92 thermostat which works perfectly but needs modification to the upper housing to allow the mounting ears to work but it's an outdated European part that is discontinued. The hemi thermostat was used in millions of US vehicles so it should be readily available for the foreseeable. future.

Hey Rob,
If you would like personal copies of the technical design drawings for the thermostat modification, let me know, I have all of them on file and can email them to you.
Probably could be converted into CAD drawings very easily. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Inline Thermostat
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2023 1:06 am 
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WWDiesel wrote:
The Kaps original design drawings for modifying and making the OEM thermostat housing serviceable are available online if anyone wants or needs them.
See this:> https://www.jeepkj.com/threads/diy-serv ... tat.59804/

You will have to have access to some serious meching equipment to make the necessary parts and modifications or pay someone to do it for you.
Uses the Dodge Hemi thermostat in the modified housing.
But would probably still be cheaper than the other $500 option.

Picture of a modified and serviceable housing/thermostat:
Image



WWDiesel:

You are confusing Mark Kapalczynski's original modified O.E. thermostat with the one you have provided a photograph for. Mr. Kapalczynski's design is bolted together with 2 - 6mm studs and uses 2 sets of gaskets in the main body of the thermostat housing. The thermostat valve is from a Hyundai Accent, the thermostat cap is from a Kia Sephia, and you need to use an upper radiator hose from a '93 - '97 Dodge Intrepid. Here is his thread; it was started way back on March 11, 2010...

viewtopic.php?f=98&t=50940

The one in the photograph is from SargeIndustries, the guy who stole my idea of using the HEMI thermostat valve. I do not know where the link is to his pirated version.


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 Post subject: Re: Inline Thermostat
PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2023 1:26 am 
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So I have one built! So far so good!
I'd post pictures but, again, I don't know how here.

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New at 164K: head gasket, rockers, exhaust valves, ARP head studs, Injectors, 5v Bosch glow plugs, water pump, timing everything, serpentine everything,
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 Post subject: Re: Inline Thermostat
PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2023 1:49 am 
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DieselJeepLuvr wrote:
So I have one built! So far so good!
I'd post pictures but, again, I don't know how here.

How to Post & Share Pictures on LOSTJeeps Forum

You can post & share pictures and images on LOSTJeep.com, you first have to join and use a picture sharing/hosting service like PostImage or one of the many *others listed below.

ImagePostimages — free image hosting / image upload
Provides free image upload and hosting integration for forums. Free picture hosting and photo sharing for websites and blogs.

One very important thing to remember when using image tags: the image you display must already be available on the internet (it cannot exist only on your computer or mobile device for example, unless you have it shared on a webserver!).

After joining PostImage or one of the *other picture hosting services and uploading your pictures to the site that you want to share:

Instructions to post a picture:

Click on the "IMG" button on the top of your post.
Image

You will get this: [img]-[/img]
Then paste the URL link for your picture in between the BBC code tags:
Code:
[img]picture address goes here[/img]

Should look something like this: [url>=https://web address "link" of shared picture<[/img][/url]

*Some of the most popular image hosting *sites/services where you can upload and store images so you can share the images/photos on a forum:
*There are more available, but these are some of the more well-known ones.

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 Post subject: Re: Inline Thermostat
PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2023 12:35 pm 
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At one time I thought I figured out how to go to Facebook and click on something that gave me the option of copying the link to a picture I posted there but now I can't find it anymore.

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