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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 10:22 pm 
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I personally would put ends on the rack so that it is all boxed in.
Also, for those of us with light bars, can you delete the front light tabs? and maybe have the option for a CB tab?


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 11:03 pm 
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I'm planning on having a variety of options, including base material. The prototype (for my rig) will be aluminum with front and rear light tabs and CB tab centered in the front.

Base models will be

1) Steel construction
2) Aluminum construction

Some of the options will probably be:

1) Front light tabs
2) Rear light tabs
3) Front CB tab
4) Finish options
5) Fixed or removable front and rear crossbars (haven't decided which way I'll go here)
6) Possibly a front air deflector, would require crossbar & no front light tabs
7) Tiedown loops
8) **give me suggestions**

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 11:05 pm 
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what are we talking price wise??


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 11:34 pm 
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I saw a liberty at a local audio shop (demo vehicle) that has a roof rack that was hinged. I'll get pics of it next time they bring it to town. They move it from shop to shop. It was made out of aluminum tube (for weight I assume). I think the back part had two legs that ran all the way to the rear bumper. It may not have been designed to swing as much as just be removable.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 11:42 pm 
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riptricket wrote:
what are we talking price wise??

I have no idea yet. I'm pretty meticulous when I develop anything (I design scissor lift trucks for a living) so I'll probably be developing the family of parts, doing stress analysis in Ansys, and then doing drawings. Then my fab guru and I will build the prototype from my drawings, fit it, make corrections to the model and drawings, make a production fixture.

At that point I'll be able to assign a price based on cost estimates.

Basically this is going to be top notch develpoment but without the cost. All the development time is being donated by me because I want a kick-butt rack for my Liberty, and this is the fun part for me.... 8)

rescu2000 wrote:
I saw a liberty at a local audio shop (demo vehicle) that has a roof rack that was hinged. I'll get pics of it next time they bring it to town. They move it from shop to shop. It was made out of aluminum tube (for weight I assume). I think the back part had two legs that ran all the way to the rear bumper. It may not have been designed to swing as much as just be removable.

Ive seen some wrangler ones like that. I believe one of them flipped over to be a canopy off the back.

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Aluminum Gas Tank Skid -- Radiator Skid -- Front Strut Shims
Coming Soon: Rear Bumpers with lots of options


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 1:25 am 
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Boiler wrote:
Image


Image
Image

:? :?

You want some detailed pictures of the rest of my stuff too?



If you going to make something, make it unique. This one impressed even me, but it will be a biotch to make and make it consistant.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 3:07 am 
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Front view:
Image

Front view with perspective:
Image

Rear view:
Image

Rock Lizard wrote:

Image
If you going to make something, make it unique.


What does it take to be unique? Are aftermarket side rails now taken since someone makes them? Or in this case stretching a floor across aftermarket side rails?

Aftermarket rails + floor is about as simple as it gets for a roof rack. My "2 A.M." design you linked was a fabricators nightmare. 60% more welds, 100% more bends AND they include complex bend plane rotations. The welding and forming alone will cost more than a finished side rails + floor design.

Does having a different side rail shape, aluminum construction, round tube floor, and various options make it unique? What about changing my side rail to have the rear bend replicated in the front, instead of the 45 degree slope? The current pictures show a 45 degree slope, which I planned on making more vertical, probably 60 degrees. Or does it have to look like something nobody has ever seen before?

For example, when is the last time someone made a bumper that was "unique"? Most look basically the same except for some shaping, features like recovery points & mounting, and craftsmanship. I think your bumpers are awesome looking, but do your corner facets & D-rings make them so much different than the other ones out there?

What does the community think? Are aftermarket side rails off limits to new fabricators? What about stretching a tube floor across them? I think this community is really awesome and I want to try my hand at making something I think they'll like. But if they only want one source for basic rail/rack systems I'll consider that.

I know this sounds overly defensive, and I didn't intend it to be that. I'm really just trying to stir up the dialog. All the question marks make it read like an interrogation...

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 4:05 am 
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How creative can you be with a roof rack anyway? You basically take the stock rail design, make them steel and add some steel cross bars.

I have never been a fan of how the RL one's side rails seem to angle out instead of straight up and down. I would make the side rails parallel to each other.
Image

I am a fan of this design because of how low it is. I only need some bars to hold 2 fuel cans on the very rear of the roof, so this will be the design I go for if I make or have someone make mine. Unless I just modify the stock metal ones to work. I know they'll hold the weight no problem because I had the fuel cans up there already, plus a massive roof rack.
Image
Image

The more people out there making products for the KJ/KK community the better.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 10:59 am 
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Boiler wrote:
I'm planning on having a variety of options, including base material. The prototype (for my rig) will be aluminum with front and rear light tabs and CB tab centered in the front.

Base models will be

1) Steel construction
2) Aluminum construction

Some of the options will probably be:

1) Front light tabs
2) Rear light tabs
3) Front CB tab
4) Finish options
5) Fixed or removable front and rear crossbars (haven't decided which way I'll go here)
6) Possibly a front air deflector, would require crossbar & no front light tabs
7) Tiedown loops
8) **give me suggestions**


Boiler, you've definitely got the background, skills and resources to make this happen. It would be great if you become another viable resource for the KJ aftermarket.

In KK Section, we'd love to see someone with your resources. If you check out our KK Aftermarket Parts/Suppliers list we've been collating, there is a shortage of aftermarket suppliers to the KK of custom fabricated components like roof racks, full length rock rails from wheel well to wheel well, winch-capable bumpers, etc. If you'd be interested in additional projects and be in the beginning of a Liberty model's production cycle, then please don't hesitate to explore developing products for the KK aftermarket. :twisted:

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 9:22 pm 
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Inc wrote:
How creative can you be with a roof rack anyway? You basically take the stock rail design, make them steel and add some steel cross bars.

I have never been a fan of how the RL one's side rails seem to angle out instead of straight up and down. I would make the side rails parallel to each other.
Image


I had never seen this angle, I prefer the straight up and down. Why angle it anyways?

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 9:34 pm 
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I don't think they look angled out all that much or mine do not anyways, can see on mine above

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 9:42 pm 
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i'm kind of fond of the angle myself, i think it's more of a personal taste thing

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 9:50 pm 
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JeepinJarhead03 wrote:
i'm kind of fond of the angle myself, i think it's more of a personal taste thing

Yeah, just a personal thing. It makes me think of owl ears for some reason every time I see that rack and it is hard to tell Tom for above the jeep i your pic. From directly behind or in front at eye level would be easiest to tell.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:29 pm 
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The angle is all in the eye of the beholder. The bracket feet are such funky geometry that making it straight up and down is no easier than a 45 degree angle... Actually, I have mine angling IN at 10 degrees from the vertical. I just thought it flowed with the window lines a little better. Those pictured look like they are just perpendicular to the roof at that location, but I could be wrong.

Either way, it is just a looks thing. There is very little function that can be derived from the end bends, which are the only part that actually sits on any angle. My top tube just runs flat to the average slope of the roof between the mounting points.

My plan is to do a KJ roof system and then do some roof stuff for the KK. I'm not opposed to doing other parts but I'm just kind of doing one thing at a time. I think roof racks & baskets appeal to the largest amount of people (read: soccer moms, campers, off-roaders, etc.) over bumpers, sliders, skids, armor, etc. I'm sure I'll do some of the other stuff, at least for my jeep down the road.

EDIT: On a side note, I lost a day of designing today. My grandmother turned 90 and we kinda had to go to her party. When we got home I was raring to go but my monitor wouldn't turn on. So a trip to best buy tomorrow and I'll be back at it. The good news is I got my spaceball in the mail yesterday, so instead fumbling my way through operating my solid modeler, I can be my usual speedy self again. Any 3d design guys out there will understand...

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Fabrications for sale: Aluminum Roof Rack (See Page 9)
Aluminum Gas Tank Skid -- Radiator Skid -- Front Strut Shims
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 12:57 am 
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I think the RL comment was a little out of line. I've always had a favorable opinion of RL and his work, so don't get me wrong. But, as was previously mentioned, how many ways are there to make roof racks? Boiler may not have even seen your racks and designed one like the one above. His does have slight differences.

I've struggled with the same issue on making my bumper. When you get into the limitations you have with where key pieces of the frame are and those funky turn signal holes, you end up with something looking like an ARB if you try to fill it all and sweep back to get the best approach angle. It looks SOOOO much like an ARB that I've ditched that design and I'm trying to come up with something else.

I'm sure Boiler faces the same issues with where the body lines are, where the feet mount, and the fact that it is just tubes.

I hope Boiler AND RL continue making great stuff!

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:22 am 
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Seriously. Look at TJ rear bumpers and swing away tire carriers. There is like 40 versions of the same thing almost identical.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:38 am 
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rescu2000 wrote:
I think the RL comment was a little out of line. I've always had a favorable opinion of RL and his work, so don't get me wrong. But, as was previously mentioned, how many ways are there to make roof racks? Boiler may not have even seen your racks and designed one like the one above. His does have slight differences.

I've struggled with the same issue on making my bumper. When you get into the limitations you have with where key pieces of the frame are and those funky turn signal holes, you end up with something looking like an ARB if you try to fill it all and sweep back to get the best approach angle. It looks SOOOO much like an ARB that I've ditched that design and I'm trying to come up with something else.

I'm sure Boiler faces the same issues with where the body lines are, where the feet mount, and the fact that it is just tubes.

I hope Boiler AND RL continue making great stuff!
Well I don't think it was since he was asking for detailed specs from owners of the said rack just about a week ago and now he has a design almost identical.There's many ways to make a rack.It wouldn't be a big deal for his personal one-off use but marketing them is pushing the limit there.

This was stated(which counteracts said statements in this topic) by someone else.........
Quote:
Inc
"Big Black" Admin



rescu2000 wrote:

I am abandoning the ARB looking one, mainly due to the fact that it looks too much like an ARB.


Glad to hear to be honest. Why go custom if you are gonna make it look like one you can buy off a rack? Look forward to see what you come up with.




Quote:
I had never seen this angle, I prefer the straight up and down. Why angle it anyways?
Helps keep the top of the doors off those rocks and trees here in CO,believe it or not it actually does a good job but was not really ment for that.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:42 am 
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I do agree that if you plan on selling them, then don't ask the competition for info.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 2:26 am 
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yes like I person wanted to measure mine and take pictures to have one made , well you know what I told them or should I say where I told them to go :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 2:28 am 
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Actually, Troy, it was the day before (Feb 27) that he was asking about the mounting, and he did say it was not meant to be particular to my rack, just how the mounting of the roof is in general. And yes, because of this, and then seeing a dang near spitting image of my rack threw me for a loop and maybe I was a little harsh. So, if it came off strong, I'm sorry and let me start over.

For one, I have been around a long time, there have been several attempts in the XJ and KJ world to make and sell dang near identical copies of my products. I am not concerned about losing business to a copy cat, because they have never gotten anywhere and most people will not respect their business, whether they are intentionally trying to mimic a design or not.

Just take this as sincere and constructive criticism. I don't care about competition. Never have, infact I invite it, because it does give everyone more choices, and they get to really critique and make a real decision, instead of buying something because they don't have any other choice. If it is a quality product, I will even attempt to be a distributor for it, even if it is in direct competition of my own products. Why argue and talk smack when I could even make money off other company products. That's just business. Compare it to WalMart, they sell their own versions of stuff (Great Value or Sams Choice), and they sell the competitor stuff too, and the competitor's competitor's stuff. Give people a choice, and sell all of it, who wins...everyone. Why do people buy stuff from me or send me tons of emails and phone calls with questions about what products would be best for their application, even if it isn't my product, because I have a reputation of knowing from experience what works and what doesn't.

Think of this as big brother advise. if you make it very similar, people will go for reputation almost everytime, even if it is more expensive. Just looking at that rack design, I have a dang good idea of the dimensions, and even though the straight up or even inboarded outer rails may look better/cooler than mine, like troy said, mine have function, keeping branches off the roof better and my rack has several hundred extra square inches of cargo capacity just because my rails are angled out. And that is even if your outer rails were only angled in by only 2" per side than my design. Function over form, and my form isn't too shabby either from what I have heard. :D When I read the first page and saw the first picture of the 2am nightmare, I was seriously impressed. I make racks and I would even buy that over my own, but once I saw that you tried to make it easy then I lost it a little. The "nightmare" rack (which is a pretty catchy name for it I think) may not be cheap, might be a great big pain to make, but you gain lost cargo capacity by stretching the floor forward of the front mounting feet, and it is dang sexy. Figure out a way to make it unique is all I am saying. Don't poll the public, it isn't accurate. They will talk, but it is when they lay the money on the table that will give you the answer you seek.

I'm not telling you to not copy and slightly alter my product designs because I'm afraid you will steal my business, like I said, you won't last doing it. I'm telling you to make it unique so you will be recognized for being different, make a good solid business, and live happily ever after, and since I am starting to become the Wally World of Jeep Liberty stuff, why not sell yours too and we can both profit. You're pretty good with the cad and from just the first couple of rack designs you posted, you can do something unique and I'm sure you are smart enough to redesign your own designs to make them even better while actually making the build easier and cost cheaper. That is what I do with my products, design and redesign until it is better than original but easier and cheaper to make. You have an advantage being able to use cad. I suck at computers, all my products were drawn on scrap paper or IHOP napkins, then copied onto grid paper with a ruler and a pencil. All my angles and designs were done with 9th grade geometry equations and a 10 key calculator, so it costs me a lot of time, although I am pretty dang good at it and my calculations are very rarely off when put to actual prototype, so I have to brag a little there. :twisted:

Asking about consistency in jeeps over the internet, well, can be pretty inconsistant. Do you have an idea and want to know if it will work on all KJ's or if you need to figure in X amount of tolerance for manufacturing differences between jeeps? Measure the area in question on your own jeep, pick the reference points, get a piece of paper, a pencil, a ruler/angle finder/protractor/measuring tape/etc., hit up the local WalMart, Home Depot, even the Jeep dealership and start crawling under/around and getting measurements and comparing differences to get the real inconsistencies. The dealership is a little easier so no one calls the cops and you can tell them you can't decide which one you want to buy so you are getting real specific with the measuring tools :twisted: , but I have been known to just walk up to someone and ask, hey, I make stuff for Jeep Liberties, and would you mind if I take a couple quick measurements for my design plans, and even hand them a business card, they usually don't care and maybe you will get a phone call for an order out of it.

I have been about the only one making stuff for the KJ for sometime, with a few companies making something here and their and they are starting to drop off. This is not an easy business even though I am about all there is left, so please take all this with the best intentions, make something worth selling, otherwise it isn't worth it.

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