Agreed! VERY FUGLY!

_________________
'04 Silver Sport

Hmm, try not to be offended by my comments, as I am a Toyota owner first, and a Jeep owner second. I have a ton of respect for those who wheel their junk, no matter what brand it is...

The FJ Cruiser is better or equal in many ways than the Liberty.

Chassis - Sorry folks, no unibody here, this is a traditional ladder frame truck chassis
4.0 V6 - More powerful motor
5spd auto (2wd or 4wd models) or 6 spd manual (full time 4wd)
Rear Axle with Toyota E-locker - the Toy axle will handle 35's without failure
Front IFS and diff - same stuff as the Tacoma and 4runner - very little component failure even with 33+ tires
Room for 33's with no rubbing and only a mild suspension upgrade
High quality suspension upgrades, bumpers, and everything in between already in production BEFORE the vehicles hit showroom floors, heck, ARB had suspension and bumpers on the boat before the trucks shipped to dealers!

UGLY? Sure is, but so is the Liberty. But hey, it grows on you.

Cost? I think the FJ will cost more? Not sure what a new Liberty runs?

Diesel? Toyota will not offer production diesels until 2009 in any U.S. spec vehicles.

A friend of mine took some pictures at the local dealer for those interested:

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/totallytr ... /my_photos

More powerful motor? Nope, my KJ makes more torque than the toyota 4.0L
5 speed auto? Hey, KJ has a stronger 5-speed auto. on CRDs, and 6-speed manual otherwise.
Rear axle? The 8.25 is pretty strong on these KJs.
Front IFS? Have you looked at any Tacoma forums lately? All those guys talk about constantly is component failures with the junky IFS setup on Toyotas.
Tire size...I'll give you that one. And the locker...that too. But otherwise, the FJ has NOTHING over on the KJ. And it's ugly as ***.

My buddy wheels a Toyota with me. I respect them. But I'm sick of the Toyota superiority complex.

_________________

2005 Stone White KJ Limited CRD 4x4
Off-Road Pkg
Trac-Lok
Emu 790s/948s
Skyjacker H7088s rear/Bilsteins front
15x7 Black Rock Lobos/31x10.50 Firestones
GDE HOT Tune + TCM Tune
Euro TC
CB radio
Thrush Turbo muffler
AEM DryFlow filter

There is no Toyota superiority complex on the trails, you've got that backwards I get abused regularly by my Jeep friends. Now build quality on the other hand is higher than Dailmer-Chrysler. I can only hope Jeep continues to improve their build quality until they are as reliable as the top companies, because I've only got 30,000 miles on my 2002 Liberty and it's been in for 1 recall and 3 warranty repairs.

I've driven the 4.0 Toyota motor and it's more powerful than the 3.7 in my Liberty. It's also quieter and smoother. The specs for the two motors are as follows:

Jeep 3.7 v6 210 HP @ 5200 rpm and 235 lbft @ 4000 rpm
Toyota 4.0 v6 236 HP @ 5200 rpm and 266 lbft @ 4000 rpm

Hmm, which motor is more powerful. Oh wait, you wanted to compare a diesel motor to a gasoline motor, huh...

The auto tranny in the toyota shifts more firmly than my 4spd does, but I admit I haven't driven the newer 5spd Liberty for comparison.

Junky IFS set up? Are you on crazy? The IFS on the Liberty is not as good as the Toyota IFS. The component strength of the IFS on Toyota's is better than my Liberty. The CV's and differential are stronger too.

I'm not trying to have a pissing contest, but look at this objectively. For $28,000 you get a 4wd with traction control (which you can turn off), selectable rear locker, v6, 5pd auto, 32" tires, truck chassis, full skid plates, etc.

It's equivalent to a Liberty with Frankenlift, 32's, and a rear locker. Only it came from the dealer that way and hasn't even been upgraded yet.

Don't get me wrong, the wife and I like our Liberty Limited 4wd, but we would have given the FJ a look too if it was available at the time.

Like I said, I have to respectfully disagree with you. The CV joints are a constant problem on Toyota IFS trucks. At least I know this for a fact with the Tacoma, I assume it's the same with the 4Runner but I don't know. Toyota owners who lift their trucks any at all are constantly blowing parts in the front end. I know of one guy that has gone through 30 (no typo there) sets of CV joints in 3 years.

As far as engines go...I'm comparing Toyota's strongest available engine to Jeep's strongest available engine. And the Jeep wins by 11 lb./ft.

The tranny might shift smoother in the Toyota, but it sure isn't bad in the Jeep. And the one in the Jeep CRD is taken from the Dodge Ram full-size truck line...so I'd guess it's a bit stronger than the Toyota automatic.

My Jeep stickered at a tad more than $26K. I have cast iron IFS, turbo-diesel, heavy duty 5-speed auto, 3.73 gears, 4-wheel discs, etc. For $600 I put ATs, lift kit, and full skid plates on it. For another $400 I could completely lock the rear diff. Then I could go anywhere a Toyota FJ could go, still be at less money than a FJ, get better mileage, tow more, and have 10,000 miles more warranty on the powertrain, and 40,000 miles more warranty on the engine.

So to me...yeah KJ vs. FJ is a no-brainer. I'd take the KJ any day.

_________________

2005 Stone White KJ Limited CRD 4x4
Off-Road Pkg
Trac-Lok
Emu 790s/948s
Skyjacker H7088s rear/Bilsteins front
15x7 Black Rock Lobos/31x10.50 Firestones
GDE HOT Tune + TCM Tune
Euro TC
CB radio
Thrush Turbo muffler
AEM DryFlow filter

CV joint takes 45 minutes to replace on the trail and the cost is $75. Anyone who's broken 30 CV's is an IDIOT, doesn't know how to drive, and should have bought a truck with a SOLID axle or done a swap a long time ago. I've wheeled hundreds of trails with MY 3 different generations of Toyota IFS vehicles, broken one CV, and never broken a front diff.

Which brings up the issue of solid axle swaps, which as you know are done regularly on IFS Toyotas by HARDCORE wheelers. Anyone who has broken 30 CV's is HARDCORE and needs an equipment upgrade.

I hope you have no illusions about HARDCORE wheeling in your IFS Jeep.

I'm glad DC put a real transmission behind the diesel, but you can only buy the CRD in 45 states, and mines not one of them. I think the CRD Liberty is very cool, and I'm glad you like yours. If there was a CRD in 2002 in CA I would have bought it!!!

Now, for people wanting to compare similar vehicles, gasoline v6 engines, etc., then people should not discount the FJ vs. the KJ.

Can still break CV's in a SFA well that is of course true for toy SFA and rovers.... everything else you break u-joints!

_________________
2004 Silver Liberty Sport 4x4 (gone)
1996 Land Rover Disco I
L.O.S.T #000522 Life Time #JH053535

Yes, you can always break something, no matter what you've got.

Maybe the 5 speed auto is different, but the 4 speed in mine shifts horribly sometimes... My one complaint with the KJ. Wish it was a stick.

_________________
04 Sport
L.O.S.T.#000574
Blue Maglite, Revos on spare rims, Fuzzy Dice.
Long Island/Vermont

The FJ will have it's hands full soon with the new Wrangler unlimited 4 door! Incredible approach, departure, breakover angles and ground clearance over 10 with Sahara and Rubicon models! If it's priced right, Say, 22,000 for x model to 30,000 for Rubicon it will be a huge seller. It looks great and has tons of off roading options. I can't wait to see their sales numbers vs. FJ when they come out!

_________________
2005 Jeep
Liberty Renegade
Silver

Previously owned:
2003 Jeep Wrangler Sport (Silver)
1999 Jeep Wrangler Sport (Gunmetal)

Since the current rubicon (2 Door) is nearly 30,000 I seriously doubt that it will be close to 30k

_________________
'05 KJ Renegade 3.7L
stuff
Lost Member Number: 051898

I think this whole jeep vs toyota thing is a total waste of time and brain power.

Let's just wheel it

_________________
Ray's Renegade
L.O.S.T # RP052495
Light Khaki 2005 Renegade 4x4
28D package (full skids)
Trailer tow group
Auto tranny
Trac-Loc
Jeep seat covers
K&N air filter
Moog K3199 LBJs
Frankenlift
Al's upper A arms
Goodyear wrangler silent armor
255/70-16

Spotted my first one:

_________________
===
New KJ Gear - Desert Armor Flak

2004 Renegade Light Khaki - 4" JBA Lift - Rock Lizard Products: Komodo Dragon Rear Bumper, Prototype Winch-mount Front Bumper, Super Skink Sliders - All J's Super Tranny Skid II - 31" Firestone Destination AT's on Moab wheels - Cobra 75W CB w/ stock Antenna mod

[b]Retired, US Military

finally i see a neutral color, i saw a blue one the other day and couldn't believe they went with such bright colors

_________________
2005
Patriot Blue
3.7L 4spd Auto
Tint
Rusty's 2.5" Suspension
245/75/16 BFG AT KO's
16x8 Big Hoss XD Series Rims
Limited Edition Wheel Cover
Coleman Roof Rack
3-D cell maglite and mount
Mopar Cross Rails
Ebay seat covers with jeep embroidery.
K&N air filter

I have to disagree with the idea that the new 4dr wrangler unlimited will exceed 30,000 by much in any form, even Rubicon. Tops maybe 32k to 33k but that would be loaded. It is still a jeep wrangler. They can not have their price creep to close to the grand cherokee. Plus, it needs to compete with fj and xterra, not the hummers. The hummers are geared towards a different buyer. Not to say they can't compete, in offroading wranglers excel, but hummers tend to get "blinged out" for lack of a better term.

As for the Toyota vs. jeep...that's natural to do...not toyota vs. jeep, but wrangler or libby vs. fj...the same way we compare libbys to xterras etc... It's only natural if u're proud of you vehicle, which we all are! I hope they are all successful. I also cocede that it is possible that the rubicon unlimited will be priced higher, but I think DC knows they will still clean up with a great priced 4dr wrangler!

_________________
2005 Jeep
Liberty Renegade
Silver

Previously owned:
2003 Jeep Wrangler Sport (Silver)
1999 Jeep Wrangler Sport (Gunmetal)

I think the FJ fills a niche somewhere between the Liberty and the Wrangler...

Not to piss you or anybody else off or argue but im am commenting on what i think, If you want to compare reliability on a 4.0 then I have had a YJ with a I6 with 309,000 miles and it runs in great condition. And no problems with it, only replaced the normal wear and tear parts. And I wheel and beat it all the time. I give it the horsepower but some gas stations out here do not even have premium. I thought the FJ was to compete with the wrangler not the KJ. And a rubicon can beat it anyday for the same price, and if lifted you can put 36" tires on it. And it has a 4:1 ratio. Besides the 4.0 v6 in jeeps will have more power.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty Renegade
2002 TJ Sport Solar Yellow
2000 TJ Sport Patriot Blue - gone
1979 CJ5

The 4.0 I6 is a great motor, very reliable, and plenty of torque where it counts. I couldn't agree more. I had one in a Cherokee before it was stolen.

The new Wrangler will be outfitted with a 3.8 v6 which makes less power than the Toyota 4.0.

It is too bad DC decided not to breathe new life into the 4.0 I6 so it would meet current emmissions goals.

The FJ fits somewhere in the middle of the IFS Liberty and the SFA body on frame Wrangler as far as what it offers.

I'm sure both the new FJ and the new Wrangler will sell tons of units and I'd love to have one of each!

And nobody is arguing, I enjoy hearing other peoples perspectives.

I've been looking at these for a while. I don't see a sunroof option. Am I missing it?