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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:27 pm 
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Ahhhh.... OK one last post.

I am tiring of this. But, then, that's what technocrats do, wear you down until you just stop debating from fatigue. :roll:

I believe the original question asked in this thread was whether or not biodiesel or wvo could be used in the Liberty:

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Bio Diesel for or not for the liberty CRD
I was asking the tech that worked on my CRD and asked about Bio Diesel for the liberty. He said DO NOT use it in the liberty CRD. It would mess up the injector spray and clog it up since the injectors are so so tiny. Has anyone else checked into this. I was hoping i could get the old oil from the restaurants fryers and fliter it and use it in the Liberty CRD. Just like you can do with other diesels


Darby gave a good point based on the Bosch POV considering bio-d use.

Others pointed out their use of bio-d to give real world illustrations of its use.

Then, it morphed into, "don't use bio-fuels because it will cause farmers to burn down the rain forest, poison all the land with pesticides and use all of the potable water on the planet in it's production." That theory is based in techno-babble that is similar to: dogs hate cats; a cat is an animal and a dog is an animal; therefore dogs hate themselves. I guarantee that I can find enough reliable, repeatable data to support just about any side of an argument, for or against any topic.

Reflexes arguments on the subject makes me want to run out and buy a fur coat and wear it while doing burn-outs in my Ford Excursion; throwing McDonald's wrappers out the window with one hand, talking on the cell phone holding it in the other; and puffing on a Camel cigarette! Oh yeah, all the while being over the legal limit for a DUI!!! :shock:

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 3:29 am 
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Your choice to do as you wish of course. But keep in mind, that 'techno-babble' is why you live into your 70's, own a car and are capable of posting on this forum. In short, science and the scientific method are purely responsible for the modern way of life. Dissing it while posting on a computer is just ridiculous.

No one, least of all myself, is forcing you to do or believe anything. That is beyond my power. But yes, I will point out that there is a downside to biofuels when I see people discussing it like its the saviour that will get us out of the petroleum nightmare we have gotten ourselves into. Trading one catastrophe for another is not much of a solution.

That does not mean there isn't hope for biofuels in the future, this very thread pointed out some future technologies. It only means that if a sizeable percentage of the population starts switching now we will have major problems very quickly. Problems that make the middle east and global warming seem minor in comparison.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 5:22 pm 
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OK after reading all 3 pages of this... here is my .02

I have ran B-100 in my Jeep Libby CRD for 38,000 miles yes you saw that right 38k. Now regardless of what party i vote for, i am your every day fast food eaten, crackberry typing, www surfer AMERICAN. which means... i really have NO IDEA what I'm talking about or fighting for. all i know is when i see 20 gal of WVO in a trash can that i can take out, and make Bio from it, I'm doing my part to save the world. (yes we are all blind) And to prove I'm a red blooded American if i see Diesel for $2.99 gal or my home made for $0.13 gal... which would you do???

and yes, i still leave the water running when i brush my teeth, i don't have a full dishwasher when i run it, i leave my lights on when I'm not home, i use charcoal in my grill, and i bag my grass clippings and yes i put them in the trash can....

so my point is this:
no one person will change the way I do things (or you for that matter) I feel good when i know i have not bought gas from a pump in over a year. I feel good cause i own a FREE car, ($400 gas card bill is now car paymt!!) its not about who is right or who is wrong its the American dream... What makes ME feel good. that's what its all about :D

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 5:30 pm 
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one more thing...

a dealer HAS to tell you that BIO is bad for the Libby

however, as i stated before ive ran B-100 for over 38K miles with no probs.. in fact i think im the only one here that has not had an EGR prob, or any other MX prob for that matter..

so to answer the org post YES in MY opinion it is safe to run homebrewed B-100! :)

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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 7:01 pm 
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I make my BD, I run my BD, I like my BD, I have built BD processors and sold them. I have 1 restaurant that keeps me in feed stock, 5 gallons a day.
I run about an 25-30% mix.
I have also used it in our Bobcats at work, The only thing it did was clean out the fuel system, and plug the filters. But now alls well.
I'm thinking about doing an ethanol still now.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 5:51 pm 
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Commercial biodiesel can have issues, and everytime a bad lot goes out and causes vehicle problems, it's "biodiesel" that gets the blame. There is a very easy quality test one can do on any biodiesel. Simply take 3ml of bio and mix it with 27ml of methanol (HEET in the yellow bottle), all at 70F or room temperature. If you get any precipitate, or it stays cloudy, your fuel is not up to spec. I do this test on my own homebrew; if it doesn't pass, it doesn't go in the CRD's tank. That, combined with 1 micron filtration and a prefilter should keep the trouble away.

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 Post subject: Bio Diesel for or not for libety CRD
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 3:07 pm 
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So with the water that is used to wash the BD can't you just poor the use stuff down the drain or is there nothing left after the washing. I am still new to and trying to learn about the process of making it my self. I did fined a good site on a kit for making BD http:// www.evolutionbiodieselkits.com . This site has a nice processors that will fit in a garage

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 Post subject: Re: Bio Diesel for or not for libety CRD
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:41 pm 
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Sharon wrote:
So with the water that is used to wash the BD can't you just poor the use stuff down the drain or is there nothing left after the washing. I am still new to and trying to learn about the process of making it my self. I did fined a good site on a kit for making BD http:// www.evolutionbiodieselkits.com . This site has a nice processors that will fit in a garage


yes you can pour it down your drain just fine.

dont buy a processer... just dont do it. Build an Appleseed. its cheeper and better. most if not all processers you buy do not have a heater and they cost around $1200, ive made over 1000 gal in my little 40 gal water heater and its still running strong.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:41 pm 
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Ive used B100 in my TDI Jetta, diesel Land Cruiser and diesel Samurai. I think one of the issues with modern diesels (read CRD's) is that bio acts as a solvent and I would imagine is very hard on parts at the pressures CRD find themselves at.


Tom

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:04 am 
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Increased Lubricity: Injection systems have always relied on diesel fuel as a lubricant but ULSD falls far short of the lubricity levels required to maintain proper injection system lubrication; at least without additional additives. The use of biodiesel blended with petrodiesel, however, not only provides the necessary lubrication, it actually provides higher lubricity levels than standard North American #2 diesel fuel ever did.

Another major concern that makes the use of B100 and the blending of biodiesel with petrodiesel doesn't diminish is the solvent characteristics inherent in biodiesel. Most hoses installed in newer vehicles should be synthetic and, therefore, impervious to biodiesel deterioration but any build-up of dirt and grime will still be washed into the filters; requiring them to be changed within 1000 miles of first using B20 and above. That could be an irritation but it seems to me that a clean fuel system is a happy fuel system. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Bio Diesel for or not for libety CRD
PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:59 pm 
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skywarn wrote:
Sharon wrote:
So with the water that is used to wash the BD can't you just poor the use stuff down the drain or is there nothing left after the washing. I am still new to and trying to learn about the process of making it my self. I did fined a good site on a kit for making BD http:// http://www.evolutionbiodieselkits.com . This site has a nice processors that will fit in a garage


yes you can pour it down your drain just fine.

dont buy a processer... just dont do it. Build an Appleseed. its cheeper and better. most if not all processers you buy do not have a heater and they cost around $1200, ive made over 1000 gal in my little 40 gal water heater and its still running strong.


Many use an Appleseed processor. There is a lot of info. out there on this.
Don't get hung up on the liberal BS! Go to http://www.25x25.org/ if you want scientific facts related to agriculture. You can make biodiesel without water (dry wash) some don't wash. (A side note NY City uses 3.5 million gallons of water every 5 min.)
Biodiesel fuel can be made from veggie oils, waste oil, grease & raw oils of soy, palm, sunflower, Camelina, and canola to name a few oil seed plants. Many can be grown in crop rotation or on marginal land. The ultimate recycling plan is to grow food grade oil seed (the byproduct is livestock feed) run it through the restaurant with a contract to pick up the WVO for biodiesel processing. The airline industry is going to biodiesel due to a carbon tax in the EU so you will see a lot more production soon. When we met in DC recently the legislators (Senators) agreed they need to continue the biodiesel tax credit which will help increase production once that passes.

Rudolf Diesel was a visionary, and it is good to see his dream finally being realized. He stated, “The use of vegetable oils for engine fuel may seem insignificant today. But such oils may become in the course of time as important as petroleum” pretty amazing words spoken almost a century ago.

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 Post subject: Re: Bio Diesel for or not for libety CRD
PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 1:28 pm 
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skywarn wrote:
Sharon wrote:
So with the water that is used to wash the BD can't you just poor the use stuff down the drain or is there nothing left after the washing. I am still new to and trying to learn about the process of making it my self. I did fined a good site on a kit for making BD http:// http://www.evolutionbiodieselkits.com . This site has a nice processors that will fit in a garage


yes you can pour it down your drain just fine.


Er... you CAN, but should you? While using the drain for reactor wash water for small batches it probably okay (the same way it is okay to put ethylene glycol down the drain...) please, please don't put large volumes of wash water into a septic system or any municipal sewage plant that could expose the water to any wildlife or that uses biological filtration (most do). The leftover methanol, soaps, and other chemical contaminants will kill helpful bacteria and so forth. If you ramp up your production, please be a model for others for semi-sustainable fuels (i.e. recapture the methanol via still, use evaporative methods to get rid of the water, etc.).

I'm no "tree-hugger", but lets not kill the planet in the process of saving it.

Dan

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 Post subject: Re: Bio Diesel for or not for the liberty CRD
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:12 am 
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You can get rid of the glycerin accumulated from making biodiesel?

You have several choices to get rid of the glycerin:
1) evaporate the methanol and compost the rest;
2) recover the methanol and compost the rest;
3) recover the methanol and purify the glycerin, then compost the rest;
4) use it as a shop cleaner and degreaser.

A simple way to recover some of the methanol is to use a pressure-cooker with a condenser to collect boiled methanol. Recovery is about 20% of what you used in your last batch of biodiesel.

Once the methanol has been removed the glycerin is a lot safer to dispose of and this can be done in a number of ways.

1. It can be composted in a big compost heap. A smaller compost heap is soon overwhelmed. You should only compost glycerin made from potassium based catalysts.
2. It can be neutralized with acid and then disposed of through regular drains. Check with your water treatment plant before throwing anything down the drain.
3. You can make soaps and cleaning products out of it or use it as is for a floor cleaner. Have a look at the biodiesel soap recipe pages for more information.http://www.home-made-biodiesel.com/biodiesel-soap.html
4. Feed it into an anaerobic digester.
5. Mix it 50% with kerosene, it makes a great engine cleaner.

Alternatively, recover the methanol from your biodiesel before it goes into the wash system and then add some Sulfuric Acid into the wash water to neutralize it before disposal. Use ph test strips to check that the PH is around 7. This effectively makes the water harmless and it may safely be disposed of down the drain.

If your municipality cannot process your waste water then buy a biodiesel dry wash system. This will not use water - problem solved.

Of course the dry wash chemicals are also a biodiesel waste product and need to be disposed of properly, but this is a lot easier to do.

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 Post subject: Re: Bio Diesel for or not for the liberty CRD
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:27 am 
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I have a waste oil recovery plant in my area - www.newportbiodiesel.com. I just started using it. I can't see why it would be a significant concern, this plant does several thousand gallons a week of fleet delivery and has been in business for over 5 years.

I see it as way to recycle out of the waste stream and with the 'dino' diesel being 4.00 and the BD being 3.20, I'll do b80 for a while, there are people on this board that have done over 80K on bio-diesel.
How would debris get through you fuel filter to block a injector? Seems kinda shaky?

BD has the highest lubricity of all our diesel fuels. It does have a lower BTU, it will gel at 32F without mixing. It cleans the heck out of your fuel system before the fuel filter, I'll be changing my fuel filter with the next oil change, I just did one.

I cannot see why there is so much FUD about this, unless it is a less that reliable source.


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 Post subject: Re: Bio Diesel for or not for the liberty CRD
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:43 pm 
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My Jeep is a great WVO vehicle. 13k miles on SVO without any issues. My wife drives it every day trouble free. I am working on doing biodiesel as a start-up fuel. I just have to finish making an appleseed processor.

I feel the ultimate would be biodiesel for start stop and wvo for long trips. 3 or more miles. I basically do this because I am cheap. But I have solar panels on my roof also. And I work in a restaurant so I get grease for free. Also I know that most used fryer grease goes into feed for animals and I would prefer it if that did not happen. Because I have seen what goes into the grease dumpsters, and I have meet the grease collectors.

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 Post subject: Re: Bio Diesel for or not for the liberty CRD
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:14 pm 
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To each is own. You can run anything you want in "your" vehicle. Also, making you own fuel depending where you live can be quite expensive in regulation compliances with state and fed. law. So if you're making your own, keep it quiet and don't advertise otherwise you may have "the man" knocking on your door with his hand out for his cut in licenses, fees and regulations.


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 Post subject: Re: Bio Diesel for or not for the liberty CRD
PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 4:15 pm 
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As noted the Jeep CRD was shipped with biodiesel.

Most legislators will agree the EPA is out of control and their efforts to destroy diesels in America causes much concern. One should contact their legislators and encourage them to cut the EPA budget and regulations and put more diesels on the road using biodiesel, a renewable resource, like they are doing in Europe. Bring back the Jeep CRD in the US. I find it disheartening to see how many are apposed to any form of energy independence in the USA.

Don't get hung up on the liberal BS! Go to http://www.25x25.org/ if you want scientific facts related to agriculture. (A side note NY City uses 3.5 million gallons of water every 5 min.)

You can make biodiesel without water (dry wash) some don't wash.
Many use an Appleseed processor. There is a lot of info. out there on this.
Biodiesel fuel can be made from veggie oils, waste oil, grease & raw oils of soy, palm, sunflower, Camelina, and canola to name a few oil seed plants. Many can be grown in crop rotation or on marginal land. The ultimate recycling plan is to grow food grade oil seed (the byproduct is livestock feed) run it through the restaurant with a contract to pick up the WVO for biodiesel processing. The airline industry is going to biodiesel due to a carbon tax in the EU so you will see a lot more production soon. When we met in DC recently the legislators (Senators) agreed they need to continue the biodiesel tax credit which will help increase production.

Rudolf Diesel was a visionary, and it is good to see his dream finally being realized. He stated, “The use of vegetable oils for engine fuel may seem insignificant today. But such oils may become in the course of time as important as petroleum” pretty amazing words spoken almost a century ago.

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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:38 am 
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Reflex wrote:
First off, yes I know I struck a nerve. Secondly, no, your post did not bother me, I've heard all of this before. Two years ago I was a HUGE proponent of BioDiesel. Then my fiance, who is a Zoology major with a focus in Wildlife Ecology as well as a second major in Agriculture and Natural Resource Communications had me chat with one of her Ag professors. He pointed out to me that it is not energy positive, that you spend more fuel for a gallon of BD than the land produces when all factors are considered. I continued researching it after that point and found that much of the government sponsored 'research' on the topic is based on best case scenerios that are not real world. They mostly exist to justify massive subsidies being given to Monosato, Archer-Daniels Midland and General Mills, along with other farm co-ops who see this as thier oppurtunity to become the next big energy power.

Independant research by instutitions not funded by big oil or the government rarely comes out energy positive, at best its about break even(and with Ethanol its always a loser). What that means is that by switching to Biofuels at this point you actually increase our dependence on foreign oil as something has to run the infrastructure that is producing the BD. It becomes less visible to the average consumer of course, but it is just as integral. Furthermore, the water cost is extreme. Perfecting the process has nothing to do with the fact that agriculture and refining take a LOT of water. The US is facing a water crisis in the next 50 years, switching to mass agriculture to feed our appetite for energy will accellerate that dramatically(look up the Great Plains Aquifer, the world's largest, and you'll find out about how dependant we are on it and how fast its dissapearing). When we run out, it will be a return to the dust bowl, and without a saviour. ANd believe me, thats a far worse crisis than running out of oil.

Now, I am not calling on people here to 'do nothing'. You can do something right off simply by driving diesel as its about 30% more efficient than gasoline. Thats a start. Beyond that, what needs to happen is research money needs to be poured into alternative energy projects to find a solution(the algae solution is very promising). There is legislation up now, sponsored by Democratic Congressman Jay Inslee in the House, and Democratic Senator Maria Cantwell in the Senate called the New Apollo Energy Project (details here: http://www.house.gov/inslee/issues/ener ... o_new.html ) that seeks to put the same kind of effort into energy independence that was put into placing a man on the moon. It has the benefit of being 'agnostic' about its approach, its not a vehicle for specific alternative interests like Archer-Daniels Midland, thus keeping our options open for the future. Its also not short sighted on sources like nuclear which will be a necessary component of the future one way or another. Expressing your support for this initiative locally and with your state represenatives would go a LONG way on this issue.

If any of you are serious about these issues, I highly advise you to read *all* the literature on it, not just the astroturfing thats happening where large conglomerates are sponsoring 'independant' websites promoting specific biofuel agendas designed to line thier pockets. Nor those who have never taken a chemistry or physics class and thus do not understand thermodynamics going on about a supposed 'cure' to all our problems. The answers are just not that simple, and they ALL come with a cost.

BTW, the 'outmoded' methods of farming mentioned are the reason we get such high yields. Remove them and you remove the potential energy density of those fields
. You can't have your cake and eat it too, it just dosen't work that way.


I have to quote this post because it is now over four years later. A lot of water has passed under the bridge. The U.S. is no closer to finding a solution to or weaning it's voracious energy appetite.

While I hate to say it, I agree with most of reflex's post. :shock:

I still feel that biodiesel is a very good idea, however, there really isn't enough farmland to make it a viable solution. Even if we switch to SVO, meaning redesigning our diesels to run on that fuel, there isn't enough volume of feedstock available. We have also killed the land and made it dependent on petro-chemical fertilizers to get the yield. I think I did say it before, oil, no matter it's origin, is the country's heroin. Petroleum is the heroin and plant based oils are the methadone or crack. Most users use methadone or crack to supplement their heroin addiction. Plant based fuels is that methadone. As for the water shortage being 50 years away, ummm... it's here, now, only four years later than Reflex's post.

Pound for pound, diesel is the "better" ICE choice. Why else would large trucks use diesel, trains, (that btw are all electric, diesel is used to generate the juice) and other commercial vehicles use the diesel platform versus gasoline.

IMO, the best way to use plant based fuels is to use waste veggie oil vs new. But even that takes the stream of waste oil away from another use.

Personally, I prefer to not change the oil to bio-d because of there being the water use and glycerine disposal issues, not to mention methanol use which mainly comes from natural gas. Perhaps I am just a little lazy too. To me, it takes less effort to clean the oil than process it.

What to do?
Let's keep our little tractors running as long as we can. Run dino juice, or V8, she likes them both equally.

dad

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 Post subject: Re: Bio Diesel for or not for the liberty CRD
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 7:18 pm 
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Sorry, reflex's post isn't worth repeating :!:
It lacks a lot of real world facts............
There are many that don't want to see the US "energy independent" this would drastically change the finance structure of the world. It's all about money, not energy. :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Bio Diesel for or not for the liberty CRD
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 6:39 pm 
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Ive been using B99 from a local Propel station for some time with no issues. Great stuff and it's 20 cents cheaper than diesel around here.

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