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 Post subject: Bio Diesel for or not for the liberty CRD
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:19 pm 
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I was asking the tech that worked on my CRD and asked about Bio Diesel for the liberty. He said DO NOT use it in the liberty CRD. It would mess up the injector spray and clog it up since the injectors are so so tiny. Has anyone else checked into this. I was hoping i could get the old oil from the restaurants fryers and fliter it and use it in the Liberty CRD. Just like you can do with other diesels :?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:43 pm 
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Bosch ( the maker of the injectors ) looks down on bio for the CRD as of now. They injection system is very precise and they do not think that the quality of BIO is up to par. I buy it once in a while but keep it at a 5% mix.

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 Post subject: Bio Diesel for or not for libety CRD
PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 12:19 am 
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Thankyou for you insight. But what happened to your engine at 8100 miles
Sharon

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 3:43 pm 
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There are a couple of folks here who are serious biodiesel fans and have run fairly high concentrations of Biodiesel without problem - and at the same time there are also dealers who will grasp at any straws to deny warranty work.

I've tried B20 on a few tanks without issue (BioWillie station) and in Austin the Shell stations now say that their diesel 'may contain' up to 20% Biodiesel - although they don't say if it is or not - just 'may contain', it was a big splash in the papers when they announced it. (I'm wondering if some dealer decides a problem is due to the Biodiesel if it would set off a Shell vs DC lawsuit?)

for Do-it-yourself Biodiesel - I've only read about it. However I would be very, very cautious of trying to use straight waste oil and filter it - from what I've read I think that requires heated lines to prevent gelling and a startup cool down on regular diesel - to run normally, I think you have to transesterify the oil (alcohol and strong base - blend everything and allow to settle)

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:22 pm 
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I run SVO/WVO and B100 in the CRD with no problems and have also done so in all my TDI'S,Just find a place that has Good Biodiesel and B20 all the time is just fine and very good for the CRD and the tax break we get for it.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 4:35 pm 
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short answer: I've run 100% in both my CRD and TDI. As winter came, both showed showed hard starts, we lowered the mix. That's the beauty of it...no commitment.

Even as a BioD proponent (and researcher), I would urge caution using high mixes, as Bosch is right: quality can vary. The national Biodiesel board (biodiesel.org), which "certifies" distributors, is having a hissy fit because a LOT of BioD spot tested came back off spec. Our BioD is ASTM commercial stuff, and I get the test report with each batch, and pay a premium. But the fact that cooler temperatures DID seeem to have a greater effect on BioD than DinoD shows even to the un-scientific that there ARE differences vs dino and that BioD is not always an easy thing.

But B20 in mostly harmless if it is supposedly ASTM.

I have no info on homebrew other than to caution that if the Biodiesel Board is upset with commercial producers Imagine how good your neighbor Earl can get with it...

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 4:46 pm 
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BiodieselJeep.com
You are correct and thanks for the reply,I also have had my TDI's Chiped (RC TUNE) and inmotion chip,my friends have had this tune and really a great chip,and I support Biodiesel and yes it must be ASTM spec or we will have problems with it.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 9:17 pm 
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Got Diesel:

You mentioned a tax break? Where do you live and what tax break can you get?

Just curious, thanks...

-Paul N

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:17 am 
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For the use of Biodiesel and you can go to www.biodiesel.org for more information.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 2:18 pm 
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Sharon,

I have had my CRD for a year. It comes from Jeep with about 3 gallons of B5 in it and Jeep does say it will burn B5. In my area B5 was not available when I bought, only B20. My dealer told me they would never test my fuel except to see if there were french fries floating in it.

I have burned several tanks of B20 and B5. I have burned one thank of B99. My CRD likes it all but I am not sure if I would make a steady diet of B99 or Wesson Oil.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 4:15 pm 
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mine likes some homebrew now and again, I guess only time will tell on injector life.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:27 pm 
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emmm.....

Sharon,

go looking around these sites:

www.frybrid.com - Proponent of straight veg oil use

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve - a big bio-diesel site

Also look here, this is a new organization:

http://www.vegoil.us/

If you are asking for advice on running a fuel type that has limited exposure here in the U.S. in your $45K GC CRD... I think you would be hard pressed to get someone to tell you, "yeah, sure, knock yourself out!" The dealers know little or nothing about alternative fuel use so their opinion is worthless. As Darby and others say, most of them are just looking for an excuse to kill your warranty.

Personally, I would love to see a ground swell around bio-D use. As the bumper sticker I once saw says: Bio-diesel - No War Required!


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:54 pm 
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I would rather not see major use of BioDiesel. As it stands today, water consumption for production of BD is around 3-1(ie: 1 gallon of BD requires 3 gallons of water to produce), and even if all of the US farmland was converted to pure biofuel production we would produce less than 5% of what the country needs(plus we'd replace importing oil with importing food).

As it stands today, biofuels are a very bad idea. There is however hope, algae based BD appears to be able to be produced with a positive energy level(biofuels right now consume more energy in thier production than you get by burning them). It is still at the research stage, but it has been accomplished on a small scale. As algae is one of the best photosythisizers on the planet, if we can't make it work there the hopes are fairly slim because making it from plant material is never going to come close to what we need.

BTW, I work on energy issues with the WA state Democratic Party. I am not pro-big oil or anything else. But it is VERY important that we do not jump from the frying pan and into the fire. Whatever we switch to as a nation needs to be sustainable and not create an even worse problem than the fossil fuels we are using today.

I will throw a bone in here however: If we can switch to a biofuel at some point, BD is the logical choice. Ethanol is a very toxic substance and its emissions make gasoline seem tame by comparison(a form of nerve gas is among them). Furthermore, its far less energy dense than BD or natural gasoline, we'd have to produce a ton more of it to replace gasoline usage in this country as a result. Just remember though: Biofuels sound like a good idea until you realize that one of the largest polluters in the world is modern agriculture. We may be able to get off our foreign fuel addiction, and even slow global warming by switching, but we also would be polluting on a much larger scale than before, and using far more genetic engineering with crops and chemical fertilizers and pesticides which contaminate our ground water.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:51 am 
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Reflex wrote:
I would rather not see major use of BioDiesel. As it stands today, water consumption for production of BD is around 3-1(ie: 1 gallon of BD requires 3 gallons of water to produce), and even if all of the US farmland was converted to pure biofuel production we would produce less than 5% of what the country needs(plus we'd replace importing oil with importing food).

As it stands today, biofuels are a very bad idea. There is however hope, algae based BD appears to be able to be produced with a positive energy level(biofuels right now consume more energy in thier production than you get by burning them). It is still at the research stage, but it has been accomplished on a small scale. As algae is one of the best photosythisizers on the planet, if we can't make it work there the hopes are fairly slim because making it from plant material is never going to come close to what we need.

BTW, I work on energy issues with the WA state Democratic Party. I am not pro-big oil or anything else. But it is VERY important that we do not jump from the frying pan and into the fire. Whatever we switch to as a nation needs to be sustainable and not create an even worse problem than the fossil fuels we are using today.

I will throw a bone in here however: If we can switch to a biofuel at some point, BD is the logical choice. Ethanol is a very toxic substance and its emissions make gasoline seem tame by comparison(a form of nerve gas is among them). Furthermore, its far less energy dense than BD or natural gasoline, we'd have to produce a ton more of it to replace gasoline usage in this country as a result. Just remember though: Biofuels sound like a good idea until you realize that one of the largest polluters in the world is modern agriculture. We may be able to get off our foreign fuel addiction, and even slow global warming by switching, but we also would be polluting on a much larger scale than before, and using far more genetic engineering with crops and chemical fertilizers and pesticides which contaminate our ground water.


Wow! and OMG! are you sure you are working for the democratic party and not the republicans?

So, your answer is to NOT do ANYTHING until the perfect answer is had?

Actually, if you do in fact work with the democratic party, it's no wonder the country can't move forward. It looks like we are once again past due for a third party.

I have heard that, "even if... 5%.... consumes more energy than supplied..." rhetoric before. I also think the "research" some of those assumptions were based upon was severely skewed by the researchers personal bias.

You don't however mention svo use as a fuel. Bio-d however is much more soccer mom friendly considering the current diesel technology.

You mention that water use is 3:1 for Bio-D production. So, once again, the answer is to STOP and not perfect the process? Isn't it true that Bio-D producers recognize that and are perfecting ways to reduce water consumption if for no other reason to reduce their production costs? Modern agriculture is the world's biggest polluter? In what ways? When you apply outmoded models based on petroleum products use, I guess it is.

Perhaps we should scrap the internal combustion all together, switch to electric cars, convert all the power plants to Nuclear -run by the government and not pollute at all? Oh, wait, there's that pesky problem of the waste.... :roll:

To throw you a bone, algae production does look promising. But in your words, not quite ready so lets not do it until it's perfect.

Yes, you have struck a nerve. And I hope I have too. The answer isn't as easy or simple as either of us has pointed out. I however, am FOR whatever it takes to get us off of dino. To do that, to kick the addiction, it is going to take work on several fronts. In the short term, it isn't going to be a "switch-to" it is going to be a "conversion" process that takes time. As the saying goes, "once an addict, always an addict." Just ask "dub-ya".


Dad.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 7:05 am 
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Since we are on the topic of biodiesel etc. What do you all think of the jatropha plant?

www.biodieseltoday.com

I agree with dadsdiesel...it will not be a hard SWITCH to any alternative fuel...so in the meantime we need to be researching agressively for the best option.

Ethanol....sucks basically IMO. I know a lot of farmers that are selling their livestock because the price of corn has gone up so much. They blame it on ethanol production...is it true?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:31 pm 
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Jeger wrote:
Since we are on the topic of biodiesel etc. What do you all think of the jatropha plant?

www.biodieseltoday.com

I agree with dadsdiesel...it will not be a hard SWITCH to any alternative fuel...so in the meantime we need to be researching agressively for the best option.

Ethanol....sucks basically IMO. I know a lot of farmers that are selling their livestock because the price of corn has gone up so much. They blame it on ethanol production...is it true?


Interesting stuff.

Google the plant name to get a broader perspective. Although a lot of the material is general and presumptive, I'd bet on the Indians to get it done. After all, they have already outsourced call centers, medical imaging diagnosis, tax preparation, accounting....

The only problem is that an invading army could napalm the fields and ruin the crop for an extended period.

Gee, think of it, we are really just using solar energy packaged in a different manner.

The plant grows in poor soil, drought resistant, high oil yield. I'm sure someone will think of something bad to say about it. My only concern is that it still takes methanol to brew it into bio-d. However, I wonder how well ethanol will work.

Dad

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:42 pm 
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DadsDiesel wrote:
Jeger wrote:
Since we are on the topic of biodiesel etc. What do you all think of the jatropha plant?

www.biodieseltoday.com

I agree with dadsdiesel...it will not be a hard SWITCH to any alternative fuel...so in the meantime we need to be researching agressively for the best option.

Ethanol....sucks basically IMO. I know a lot of farmers that are selling their livestock because the price of corn has gone up so much. They blame it on ethanol production...is it true?


Interesting stuff.

Google the plant name to get a broader perspective. Although a lot of the material is general and presumptive, I'd bet on the Indians to get it done. After all, they have already outsourced call centers, medical imaging diagnosis, tax preparation, accounting....

The only problem is that an invading army could napalm the fields and ruin the crop for an extended period.

Gee, think of it, we are really just using solar energy packaged in a different manner.

The plant grows in poor soil, drought resistant, high oil yield. I'm sure someone will think of something bad to say about it. My only concern is that it still takes methanol to brew it into bio-d. However, I wonder how well ethanol will work.

Dad


I have read a lot about that plant, found it very interesting..and hopeful, even from non-biased sources. Yes ethanol will work, just as well as it would for any other biodiesel. Of course some of the producers are running their diesel engines for their cold presses off of straight jatropha oil. It burns very clean as is. I wonder how good an engine designed for that specific fuel could run?

Boy are you thinking ahead with that napalm comment LOL....good point though, it does take a few years to get established.

We already live in a solar powered world, we just need to start using fuels that are closer to the source.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 3:17 pm 
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First off, yes I know I struck a nerve. Secondly, no, your post did not bother me, I've heard all of this before. Two years ago I was a HUGE proponent of BioDiesel. Then my fiance, who is a Zoology major with a focus in Wildlife Ecology as well as a second major in Agriculture and Natural Resource Communications had me chat with one of her Ag professors. He pointed out to me that it is not energy positive, that you spend more fuel for a gallon of BD than the land produces when all factors are considered. I continued researching it after that point and found that much of the government sponsored 'research' on the topic is based on best case scenerios that are not real world. They mostly exist to justify massive subsidies being given to Monosato, Archer-Daniels Midland and General Mills, along with other farm co-ops who see this as thier oppurtunity to become the next big energy power.

Independant research by instutitions not funded by big oil or the government rarely comes out energy positive, at best its about break even(and with Ethanol its always a loser). What that means is that by switching to Biofuels at this point you actually increase our dependence on foreign oil as something has to run the infrastructure that is producing the BD. It becomes less visible to the average consumer of course, but it is just as integral. Furthermore, the water cost is extreme. Perfecting the process has nothing to do with the fact that agriculture and refining take a LOT of water. The US is facing a water crisis in the next 50 years, switching to mass agriculture to feed our appetite for energy will accellerate that dramatically(look up the Great Plains Aquifer, the world's largest, and you'll find out about how dependant we are on it and how fast its dissapearing). When we run out, it will be a return to the dust bowl, and without a saviour. ANd believe me, thats a far worse crisis than running out of oil.

Now, I am not calling on people here to 'do nothing'. You can do something right off simply by driving diesel as its about 30% more efficient than gasoline. Thats a start. Beyond that, what needs to happen is research money needs to be poured into alternative energy projects to find a solution(the algae solution is very promising). There is legislation up now, sponsored by Democratic Congressman Jay Inslee in the House, and Democratic Senator Maria Cantwell in the Senate called the New Apollo Energy Project (details here: http://www.house.gov/inslee/issues/ener ... o_new.html ) that seeks to put the same kind of effort into energy independence that was put into placing a man on the moon. It has the benefit of being 'agnostic' about its approach, its not a vehicle for specific alternative interests like Archer-Daniels Midland, thus keeping our options open for the future. Its also not short sighted on sources like nuclear which will be a necessary component of the future one way or another. Expressing your support for this initiative locally and with your state represenatives would go a LONG way on this issue.

If any of you are serious about these issues, I highly advise you to read *all* the literature on it, not just the astroturfing thats happening where large conglomerates are sponsoring 'independant' websites promoting specific biofuel agendas designed to line thier pockets. Nor those who have never taken a chemistry or physics class and thus do not understand thermodynamics going on about a supposed 'cure' to all our problems. The answers are just not that simple, and they ALL come with a cost.

BTW, the 'outmoded' methods of farming mentioned are the reason we get such high yields. Remove them and you remove the potential energy density of those fields. You can't have your cake and eat it too, it just dosen't work that way.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:01 pm 
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Reflex

What do you think about what I mentioned. Design an engine to run on straight plant oils. Do you think cutting out the process of converting to biodiesel would make the process energy positive? (if thats at all possible) *heck is the current process of refining crude oil energy positive?*

I believe it will take a combination of renewable energy sources to make the world run on it.

I also have this crazy idea that perhaps the earth has a crude oil cycle and we may never run out of oil to pump up. There is a carbon cycle, why not a hydrocarbon cycle. Just a crazy idea I had. :?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:10 pm 
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Every time you can avert a conversion process you save energy, so yes, running directly on plant oils will be more efficient than convering those oils to BD. That said, even assuming we had enough farmland to cover the needs of civilization today(we don't have even close), usable land is a very limited resource, and developing nations will continue coming online. How do we supply them? Energy consumption scales almost lineraly with economic growth, and usable farmland is a finite resource.

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