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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:49 pm 
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Reflex wrote:
Every time you can avert a conversion process you save energy, so yes, running directly on plant oils will be more efficient than convering those oils to BD. That said, even assuming we had enough farmland to cover the needs of civilization today(we don't have even close), usable land is a very limited resource, and developing nations will continue coming online. How do we supply them? Energy consumption scales almost lineraly with economic growth, and usable farmland is a finite resource.


LMAO!

You are a bureaucrat!! That entire paragraph was techno-babble.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:09 pm 
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Reflex,

The first thing you said about your gf's "prof" who enlightened you.................................

Sorry, I graduated most likely the year you were born. We were voted the class who would question everything. "professors" were the first on my list to not believe.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:18 pm 
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So, in your opinion, we should instead throw out the scientific method and instead just run with whatever looks good on the surface?

Isn't that how we got into this mess in the first place..?

And for the record, no, I'm not a beaurocrat. I'm a software engineer. And I don't feel I should have to apologize for choosing to educate myself. I know that its easy to shoot the messenger when they have an unpopular message, but that does not refute the message itself.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 3:23 pm 
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Hummm, I am an elected member of the Washington State Democratic party and it seems to me that much of what you say Reflex is not in sync with the various County, LD and state Democratic platforms which are highly supportive of bio-fuel initiatives. Your positions are also not in sync with the Democratic led initiatives in the Washington State Legislature which are making Washington State a leader in the push to greater energy independence through alternative energy alternatives. The bottom line is that if bio-diesel and ethonol can replace up to 40% of our energy needs like they do for Brazil it will give our country a lot more flexibility in the future.

The claims you and anti biofuel advocates make presume that there will be no improvements in the raw resources from which bio fuels are derived and that there will be no improvements in the technology of producing these fuels. The same assumptions are made by the same people about hydrogen technology. As we shift our economy to alternative energy sources we will find that technology, biology, genetic improvements and a whole host of other improvements will occur that make these fuels more viable.

It is also important to note that petroleum based economy has a host of documented and undocumented government subsidies that if removed would increase the cost of these fuels significantly. We should do more to make these incentives as available for bio-fuels so they become more competitive and so the technological advances suggested above get the push they need.

As a person with a farm background I know that most current crops considered for bio-diesel and ethonol do not show a good conversion rate but I also know that you can't compare the energy input/ethonol output of corn just because the midwest farmers arr used to producing corn. They will need to shift to different crops that are more productive. I also understand that there are thousands of acres of highly errodable dryland farms in the Big Bend of central Washington State that are under consideration for experimental perrenial crops that will effectively produce bio fuels, reduce cultivation and allow this part of my state to continue to support farm families that right now are not doing well trying to raise small grains in a very competitive world market.

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Please read my replies on this thread: http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/vie ... 6&start=30

I already address much of what you put up there. And yes, I am very familiar with the Democratic party platform, I helped make it along with every other delegate at the convention in Yakima (which was, admittedly, a mess). If you'd like to get in touch off this forum, please PM me as I'd love to have a discussion here or in real life about it. I am very aware that many Dems have been sold this dream without understanding the consequences, and the devestating effect it has had on southeast Asia and Brazil. Details in the link above.

If you want to talk about it, let me know. As stated elsewhere, I am not explicitly anti-biofuel. I am against biofuels as they stand today, because they do far more harm than good. There are possible future methods, in fact some are nearing a point where some investment that is currently subsidizing crop-based biofuels could possibly push them into the realm of feasibility.

Feel free to contact me, I'd love to hear from you. And as I'm certain your desire is to best represent your constituents and not the large farming co-ops, I would hope your willing to listen.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 12:17 am 
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I like the CRD because:

1) fuel economy
2) power and torque
3) a biodiesel sticker on your CRD keeps the hippies off your back
4) chicks dig it

I could see issues with biofuels as a replacement to gas or diesel.

http://www.biofuelwatch.org.uk/
http://alwayson.goingon.com/permalink/post/9705
(lots more if you look)
Corn based ethanol is worse (E85)

You just can’t beat sticking a big straw in the Middle Eastern sand and watching the oil flow out. Of course if you argue the economics of Muslim militants, wars, etc into the fuel costs alternatives start looking better and better.

I will stick to diesel and add a few gal. of B20 blend to feel less guilty about it.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 3:01 pm 
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Reflex wrote:
So, in your opinion, we should instead throw out the scientific method and instead just run with whatever looks good on the surface?

Isn't that how we got into this mess in the first place..?

And for the record, no, I'm not a beaurocrat. I'm a software engineer. And I don't feel I should have to apologize for choosing to educate myself. I know that its easy to shoot the messenger when they have an unpopular message, but that does not refute the message itself.


No, not at all, I am not saying to throw out scientific method. Just rather, to use it. Consider the source of the information and whether or not they are reliable. Cross reference and check facts in an unbiased manner. Everything I have read about "alternative fuels" has it's own particular bias, every article, paper, blog etc. has it's own bias.

No one should apologize for their education. Nor, should they feel necessary to disclose the limit of it.

Our entire world has petroleum woven into the fabric of every day life. That frankly, scares me. Kind of like a bull frog being boiled in a slowly heated pot. Before he knows exactly how much hot water he is in... he's someones dinner. I have been hearing about global warming and climate change for almost 40 years. I'm more alarmed by the peak oil theory.

Soccer moms and American suburbanites are more driven by personal economics than by either of the above theories.

I choose to use waste oil as an experimental fuel. It makes economic sense and addresses most of the concerns that you have stated. It takes years to change a bad habit. If we stand by and do nothing, or "research" it into oblivion, it will take even longer to change opinions.

dad


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 3:47 pm 
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Reflex, You say one of the problems with Biodiesel is the use of water. Well biodiesel can be made useing Algae. I worked in Wastewater for several years and Algae grows on Sewage Treatment Ponds and is a problem to conrol without harming the enzymes that treat the sewage. Now we used to have to skim the algae off of the ponds and dispose of it. So wouldn't this become a good source of biodiesel and also help keep the water clean?

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http://www.svlele.com/algae.htm

Here is some information on it.

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KJMedic - I have linked to the large scale algae BD research and I agree with you, its a far superior potential source to what we are using now. I feel that is likely the future of BioFuels, if there is one. My concern is with the existing methods and how it is being sold to congressmen as a way to keep farmers employed(most BioFuels are imported, btw, so its not helping local farmers). If a farming method is used, it will mean ecological disaster, and it will not solve foreign dependence. However, algae based biofuels could just as easily be managed by those same farmers and would not be damaging ecologically, plus return much more in the way of energy for what is spent.

DadsDiesel - I actually agree with your post, and honestly your making the same point I have been trying to make. And I have no problem with people taking their waste oils and burning them in a vehicle if they wish, that wasn't my point. I just am concerned that people are going to try to take Brazil's route towards biofuels and in the process do far more harm than good. That is where the questioning needs to begin about cost/benefit. I highly suggest reading Johnny Corvette's links, he nails several of the issues I am most concerned about.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:53 pm 
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The water issue is two fold...water to grow the "bio crop" and the water used in washing the BIODiesel during processing. If we take the alternate route of using "waste water" and harvestng the Algae as the sorce of "oil" and refine the process of producing BioDiesel to include recovering and reusing the water used to "wash" the Bio Product, that will be a big help. The problem is just as with the amount of farmland available, BioDiesel done responsibily will only be a small (but vital) relief in our fuel crisis. I think there needs to be bigger improvement in efficiency of the types of engines we are using at the present and in the materials (light but strong) used to construct our vehicles. Don't even get the fact that we are overpopulating the planets with ourselves... :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:58 pm 
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DarbyWalters wrote:
... Don't even get the fact that we are overpopulating the planets with ourselves... :wink:


Planets? Plural? You know something I don't? :wink:

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:33 am 
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DarbyWalters wrote:
The water issue is two fold...water to grow the "bio crop" and the water used in washing the BIODiesel during processing. If we take the alternate route of using "waste water" and harvestng the Algae as the sorce of "oil" and refine the process of producing BioDiesel to include recovering and reusing the water used to "wash" the Bio Product, that will be a big help. The problem is just as with the amount of farmland available, BioDiesel done responsibily will only be a small (but vital) relief in our fuel crisis. I think there needs to be bigger improvement in efficiency of the types of engines we are using at the present and in the materials (light but strong) used to construct our vehicles. Don't even get the fact that we are overpopulating the planets with ourselves... :wink:


The fact that there is even discussion on "alternative fuels" is a great step in the right direction. I'm not sure if it was in this thread or the other one where Reflex has been hammered but, Darby, the fact that you can see a solution to making bio-d production more efficient is a step in the right direction too.

The studies I have read, and I have read most of them, use data that in some cases is built off of procedures and processes that are out dated. When I read the one from the guy in Berkley, I thought he must either on the payroll for big oil or another nut who thinks using the planet's resources is a sin and would have us all living in huts. I still am not sure. What I did read with a critical eye was his assumptions about the feed stock being used and agricultural processes being used.

Since I come from an area of the country where water isn't so fiercely fought for, it is easy to just say, wash the hell out of the bio-d. But, you quickly find how much water it actually takes if you dispose of each batch of water. That does not even take into consideration the water consumed in growing the feed stock. However, with a few adjustments either in the type of plant used or growing processes I do think these negatives can be reduced or removed.

I haven't seen Sharon post on this thread again... did we scare her off? Too bad if we did.

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Darby - One of the great things about algae based BD is that the algae can be grown both with waste water and salt water, which means we do not need to utilize drinking water, which is actually scarcer than oil itself, in its production. Thats a major benefit. Also, the energy density is much much higher than any of the crop based biofuels, the algae they are attempting to use is itself 50% oil.

DadsDiesel - Have you actually read any of the links I listed? Its not minor or 'tweakable'. Vast regions are being flat out deforested. Biofuels <i>as they are being implemented today</i> are a grave threat to the environment and do not address the nation's fuel needs. Next generation biofuels have the potential to change that equation however. Cellulose ethanol for instance potentially has a much higher rate of return, and algae based BD has been meantioned repeatedly. But the curent system, where we divert food crops for fuel(at a net energy loss), or export the environmental hazards to Asia, South America and Africa are not sustainable and not beneficial to this country.

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Reflex wrote:
Darby - One of the great things about algae based BD is that the algae can be grown both with waste water and salt water, which means we do not need to utilize drinking water, which is actually scarcer than oil itself, in its production. Thats a major benefit. Also, the energy density is much much higher than any of the crop based biofuels, the algae they are attempting to use is itself 50% oil.

DadsDiesel - Have you actually read any of the links I listed? Its not minor or 'tweakable'. Vast regions are being flat out deforested. Biofuels <i>as they are being implemented today</i> are a grave threat to the environment and do not address the nation's fuel needs. Next generation biofuels have the potential to change that equation however. Cellulose ethanol for instance potentially has a much higher rate of return, and algae based BD has been meantioned repeatedly. But the curent system, where we divert food crops for fuel(at a net energy loss), or export the environmental hazards to Asia, South America and Africa are not sustainable and not beneficial to this country.



Yes, I read them. As I said before, everything I have read, comes with it's own inherent bias.

I read the UCD guy's paper and it appears that he is using a benchmark of carbon balance and CO2 to the land being old growth forest versus U.S. idle farmland. There hasn't been old growth forest in the U.S. since before my time. Only large government subsidies that keep the land idle so as to not overproduce.

Please do not confuse what others are doing around the world with what the U.S. should do for itself first.

It seems that hydrogen fuel cells may be the way to go, maybe. Or even perhaps, fuel from algae. However, these technologies are what, 10 years away from being viable alternatives? What do we do in the meantime? Nothing? Dream? Hold hands and sing kumbyah? :roll:

I Googled "biodiesel scam" this afternoon and sifted through the modern hippie sites and came onto a link that no doubt you have seen, read, and subscribe to it's mantra. Then there was one that did however make perfect sense. By trading one fuel for another does not solve the problem [it's like a heroin addict being placed on methadone "therapy" to wean him off of the heroin. It just trades one addiction for another.]. There are just toooooo many cars in the world and the U.S.

If you want to talk land use, think about all the land we damage by building roads, to drive cars on. Land we use to build plants to make the cars to drive on the roads. The land we use to acquire the resources to make the cars to drive on the roads we build. By the end of the article, I was about to sell my car and my house, move to a city center buy a bike and live in a commune. The guy was RIGHT! the problem isn't the fuel, the problem is our lifestyle. So I took a drive by myself :roll: to clear my head. What the guy, and I fear you are trying to do is change the entire lifestyle of the 21 century.

If using and promoting biodiesel and wvo/svo use gets Soccer Mom Sally to at least begin to think about the damage being done to the planet and then, that further compels her to vote for eco-friendly pols.... Then my friend, I will continue to support it's use.

The tweaking you referred to, what I meant was if to decrease the Monsanto chemical fertilizers we readjust our expectations of crop yield. Use genetically modified plants [don't even go there] to make them drought resistant, bug and disease resistant. After-all, we are talking fuel stock here not feed stock. On, and on. Adjust the numbers that have been used to vilify the use of renewable fuel sources. I'd love to talk to one of those guys in person and ask a few questions.

Most of what I read all talked about what "can't be done". B.S. tell me what CAN be done.

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Yes, I read them. As I said before, everything I have read, comes with it's own inherent bias.

A peer reviewed study does not come with 'bias', after all thats the point of a peer review. Read the link posted by Johnny Corvette. While the web site itself has its own take, the studies referenced do not, they are simply statements of facts.

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I read the UCD guy's paper and it appears that he is using a benchmark of carbon balance and CO2 to the land being old growth forest versus U.S. idle farmland. There hasn't been old growth forest in the U.S. since before my time. Only large government subsidies that keep the land idle so as to not overproduce.

Please do not confuse what others are doing around the world with what the U.S. should do for itself first.

Since hte US does not have adequate farmland to do mass production on its own, what is done around the world to make this work is absolutely relevant. Just as the middle eastern situation is a result of our current production methods. Do you wish to see terrorists from African nations blowing things up in the US due to our exploitation of thier natural resources? Don't think they exist? Ask the former colonial powers about that. We'd be trading the middle eastern problems for another set of problems.

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It seems that hydrogen fuel cells may be the way to go, maybe. Or even perhaps, fuel from algae. However, these technologies are what, 10 years away from being viable alternatives? What do we do in the meantime? Nothing? Dream? Hold hands and sing kumbyah?

I listed what to do several times. I'll list it again below.

Quote:
I Googled "biodiesel scam" this afternoon and sifted through the modern hippie sites and came onto a link that no doubt you have seen, read, and subscribe to it's mantra. Then there was one that did however make perfect sense. By trading one fuel for another does not solve the problem [ it's like a heroin addict being placed on methadone "therapy" to wean him off of the heroin. It just trades one addiction for another .]. There are just toooooo many cars in the world and the U.S.

If you want to talk land use, think about all the land we damage by building roads, to drive cars on. Land we use to build plants to make the cars to drive on the roads. The land we use to acquire the resources to make the cars to drive on the roads we build. By the end of the article, I was about to sell my car and my house, move to a city center buy a bike and live in a commune. The guy was RIGHT! the problem isn't the fuel, the problem is our lifestyle. So I took a drive by myself to clear my head. What the guy, and I fear you are trying to do is change the entire lifestyle of the 21 century.

Are you familiar with the concept of building a Strawman? That is where you take someone's arguments, find someone more extreme who encompasses parts of the first person's actual statements, and then attribute the extremists point of view to the first person. In other words, your building your own case, and then attacking it, while attributing that case to me. I have not called for any of that. All I have done is warn that Biofuels present a clear and present threat to the ecosystems that rivals what oil is doing, and a threat to our foreign policy that is also just as great. Pointing out that threat is not the same as calling for the US to become a nation of hippies living on communes. You'll note that I have yet to tell people to change thier lifestyle anywhere in this thread.

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If using and promoting biodiesel and wvo/svo use gets Soccer Mom Sally to at least begin to think about the damage being done to the planet and then, that further compels her to vote for eco-friendly pols.... Then my friend, I will continue to support it's use.

The problem is that society tends to be 'out of sight, out of mind'. If 'soccer mom' thinks that biofuels solve her problems, and that she no longer has to worry, it will then take a LOT of work to get her concerned again in the future when the inevitable overuse of Biofuels creates its own set of issues. Furthermore, this leads to the misconception that scientists 'invent' a new crisis every couple decades to stay relevant. The better question to ask is: Why do we not take a long term view with our 'solutions' in the first place, which would prevent continuing crisis, or at the least minimize them. The answer is that politicians do not have any real vested interest in the long term, only the short term as their political life is lived election to election, not 50 year accomplishments.

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The tweaking you referred to, what I meant was if to decrease the Monsanto chemical fertilizers we readjust our expectations of crop yield. Use genetically modified plants [ don't even go there ] to make them drought resistant, bug and disease resistant. After-all, we are talking fuel stock here not feed stock. On, and on. Adjust the numbers that have been used to vilify the use of renewable fuel sources. I'd love to talk to one of those guys in person and ask a few questions.

This is already being done. But it is not magic. Its not going to make a crop that requires no water. Furthermore its a system of tradeoffs, one genetic tweak that reduces water usage might also reduce yield, another that requires less fertilizer may also reduce its energy density. As for reducing our expectations of crop density, if we do that then we eliminate the ability to ever make a 'net positive' in terms of harvest and processing. If a biofuel is produced as a 'net negative' on energy, then it costs us more fuel to manufacture than it produces post-refinement, and that means it won't help at all(it actually would make the problem worse).

Quote:
Most of what I read all talked about what "can't be done". B.S. tell me what CAN be done.

I am not certain why I have to keep repeating this. I have said it several times in both threads. Right now there is a bill in congress called the New Apollo Energy Initiative. It is sponsored by Representative Jay Inslee, and Senator Maria Cantwell. It mandates solving the energy crisis as a federal budget priority on the same level as the Apollo project to land men on the moon back in the 60's. Call your congressman and ask them to support that measure.

On a personal level there is also much you can do. For instance spend more effort recycling(especially plastic, as it is an oil product and accounts for around 60% of our oil imports). Get low energy appliances. Use sleep mode on your computers. Don't leave the tv running when your not watching it. Everything else that every energy conservationist would tell you. Simple conservation alone would save the US millions of barrels of oil. Hell, just if 30% of the US population switched to diesel for their vehicles the oil savings would be enough to eliminate the imports of this nation from Saudi Arabia.

There is plenty you can do.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:42 pm 
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dont think bio-diesel is bad idea
over here in ireland ,the goverment is looking into setting up ways of getting people of waste oil ,fryer oil collected to use to power electric power plants as a lot is trown down drains which causes envirment probs
they produced a figure of waste oils of all types which would scare you,so if they recycled waste oil of all types in bio-diesel ,even as a small percentage,would save alot in diesel


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"I will throw a bone in here however: If we can switch to a biofuel at some point, BD is the logical choice. Ethanol is a very toxic substance and its emissions make gasoline seem tame by comparison(a form of nerve gas is among them). Furthermore, its far less energy dense than BD or natural gasoline, we'd have to produce a ton more of it to replace gasoline usage in this country as a result. Just remember though: Biofuels sound like a good idea until you realize that one of the largest polluters in the world is modern agriculture. We may be able to get off our foreign fuel addiction, and even slow global warming by switching, but we also would be polluting on a much larger scale than before, and using far more genetic engineering with crops and chemical fertilizers and pesticides which contaminate our ground water.
"






By the way. Etoh produces only a very small fraction of the toxic fumes compared to gasolene or diesel. ethanol itself is totaly non toxic(IN THE QUANTIES THAT ONE NORMALY DRINKS DURING A NIGHT NIGHT OUT). many sorces of etoh feedstock are very energy positive (just ask the brazillians). and it can be used very well in the production of biodiesel (fatty acid ethel ester). dont just repeat things that you hear others say about important issues, do the research.


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Geesh I wish I could keep from "biting" on this thread.

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A peer reviewed study does not come with 'bias', after all thats the point of a peer review. Read the link posted by Johnny Corvette. While the web site itself has its own take, the studies referenced do not, they are simply statements of facts.


Peer reviewed does NOT mean that the "researcher" does NOT have bias. Only, that the work isn't fabricated. A wise old man told me once, "figures don't lie - but liars figure."

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DadsDiesel wrote:
Geesh I wish I could keep from "biting" on this thread.

Quote:
A peer reviewed study does not come with 'bias', after all thats the point of a peer review. Read the link posted by Johnny Corvette. While the web site itself has its own take, the studies referenced do not, they are simply statements of facts.


Peer reviewed does NOT mean that the "researcher" does NOT have bias. Only, that the work isn't fabricated. A wise old man told me once, "figures don't lie - but liars figure."

Bias is irrelevant if the data is not falsifiable. Everyone has bias, the point of peer review is to make it clear when such bias taints results. If a study passes peer review, with results duplicated by other independant researchers, then the only argument against it is that the entire field of study is biased, which is a very difficult argument to justify or sustain, ultimatly leading to idiotic conspiracy theories.

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